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The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 22 March 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Echoex, Auditor

I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but has anyone read the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen Donaldson?

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Ex. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 14 April 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Scilvenas, Auditor

Forgive the new guy for making his first post in another author's thread, but yeah, Donaldson's great. If you like your fantasy hard and dark (imagine that's just about everybody here), you can't go wrong with the Chrons. I'm a regular at [url=http://kevinswatch.ihugny.com:puy33cso]Kevin's Watch[/url:puy33cso], Donaldson's offical message board. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 14 April 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Faelcind Il Danach, Peralogue

I loathed TCTC IMHO they were up with Newcomb and Goodkind as the worst fantasy novells ever published. An anti-hero is one thing but I don't want to read about somebody who is completely uninteresting whiny and genereally loathable. Cnair and Kellhus are unlikeable scary dudes but they are also well written charismatic charecters. TC was completely unlikeable on top of which the realm was among the most stereotyped and boring fantasy worlds I have encountered and not single charecter outside of TC had any depth at all. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 14 April 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Faelcind Il Danach, Peralogue

I loathed TCTC IMHO lord fouls bane was up their with Newcomb and Goodkind as the worst fantasy novells ever published. An anti-hero is one thing but I don't want to read about somebody who is completely uninteresting whiny and genereally loathable. Cnair and Kellhus are unlikeable scary dudes but they are also well written charismatic charecters. TC was completely unlikeable on top of which the realm was among the most stereotyped and boring fantasy worlds I have encountered and not single charecter outside of TC had any depth at all. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 24 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

yeah butcha gotta love Saltheart Foamfollower and the Giants!!!! view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

I enjoyed The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. I don't think you necessarily need a complex geography to create an interesting 'other' world. As to the character of Thomas Covenant, yes i hated him at first. He came across as a self-obsessed pain in the ass, yet this is why i was drawn to him at the same time. The whole point of Covenant is that he is the Unbeliever, he has to reject the place and the situation he finds himself in to hold onto his sense of self; yet at the same time he must accept the world in which he is in or he will fail in his quest to succeed. It is the necessary paradox of Thomas Covenant and White Gold.

Covenant is a leper, a disease which has driven away his family and friends, leading him to become a pariah, outcast, unclean. He rejects his disease so as to not give up on life, yet he must accept it and constantly keep a close check on himself or he may succumb to his disease and die.

I think the most impressive thing about Donaldson's work, however, is that he has created such a human character as Thomas Covenant. Unlike many stock heroes in sci-fi and fantasy, Covenant posses no supra-natural powers, he is in a world where everybody depends upon him and he cannot help them, he does not know how to use White Gold and this frustrates him as does his leprosy. He is impotent in our world and in the land, helpless. Look to any of the great names of sci-fi and fantasy and you will struggle to find a more 'real' character, a character who has his faults, does not know what he has to do and is plagued by failure and disappointment throughout the tale. That is the joy of the Chronicles of Thomas Covenant, Unbeliever and White Gold Weilder. It is a more gritty, real fantasy novel that does not provide the same escapism as other fantasy literature may do as we can identify with the hero and share similar dilemas ourselves in our own lives. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

i mostly agree with target, however, covenant just got on my nerves.
and whats-her-name The Chosen, as well. it's true these characters are not likable. i just wanted to smack that lindsey girl a number of times and whiney, mooning high lord elena too! however, i liked the world. 'scuse me, the land. i liked the people who lived there. giants, haruchi, etc. so i put up with the unbeliever and the chosen just to hang out with Foamfollower, Bannor, Cail and the like. gad. i'm a nut case.
i like dark and Covenant, as a character, is definately dark. just annoyingly whiney.
hahahaha!! view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

i can agree with that, but i still liked him. A lot more than Linden Avery at any rate. I'm not too sure about whats happening to the Bloodgaurd though, however i think it is a very interesting development, and i still quite like them. I think fantasy should be a much darker place than it is. It makes it a lot more interesting and 'real'. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

Linden. thank you. i hate the way everybody always says LindenAvery. typesetter should have just omitted that space, huh. Linden Avery. sounds like a friggin tree. is it a tree? see how she still bugs me!


well you can't help liking the guy, can you. poor schmuck! and there is the all important reDEMPtion in there, isn't there. so, when all's read and done, Covenant actually does stand up. it has legs. we're still talking about it, after all, and the first book was published when?

I think fantasy should be a much darker place than it is.



for darkest dark i read hard-boiled detective fiction. i suggest Motherless Brooklyn by jonathan lethem or Gun, With Occasional Music. He also has a great short story collection with a couple of dark pieces in the "speculative fiction" vein. speculative is a good word.
or the older guys, Camus, Jim Thompson, David Goodis.
for good dark non-fiction i would highly suggest James Ellroy's My Dark Places. let me assure you when he says "dark", the man means DARK.
i was amazed at this revelatory piece of work!!! really.

don't get me talkin about this. it'll be a silly "have you read" contest!!!
hahahahahahaha! view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

I wont win that contest, ive read enough books, but not that many in the fantasy genre, at least not many of the tye we ae talking about. As ive said, a ot of the fantasy i know is 'high' fantasy. But anyway. I think TC was first published in '75. It's been a bit of a wait. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

what does that mean? "high" fantasy. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

'High' fantasy is referring to the grandiose nature of the fantasy genre. Whereas we consider TC and TDTCB to be a much darer, grittier, more realistic kind of fantasy, 'high' fantasy refers to works such as Eddings, which has very powerful characters in a clearly foreign world in which anything is possible. The whole 'high' fantasy genre seem to me to have a much nicer world, if you could call it that. I don't know how to fully explain it, its just how it appears to me. I think the best example of the differences is if you consider Warhammer, the Games Workshop games.

The Early editions of Warhammer and its futristic counterpart, Warhammer 40 000 (40K), were more colourful, bright worlds or universes in which chivalry and magic, if you will, were very prominent characteristics. More so in Warhammer than 40K. This has recently changed with the latest editions of the games bringing more darker elements to the races, the backgrounds and the artwork, to rovide, what i feel, a much more engrossing universe. A good example of this is the Wood Elves. If you have the opportunity, check out the old style Wood Elves, and then compare them with the new.

I think Tolkein has aspects of both 'high' fantasy and 'dark' fantasy, if we should call it that. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

don't know warhammer but will check it out.

haven't read eddings. should i? i hate all the paperback covers. itsn't that obnoxious. i just didn't like the artwork so i've never read any of the books!!! i'm so shallow. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

I know what you mean. I do like some of the artwork though, especially on the Shining Ones, but thats beside the point. I would recommend Eddings, i thoroughly enjoyed their books, but it doesnt suit everyone. I think they are very good at writing characters, and the scope available to them in writing the Belgariad and the Mallorean enabled them to ceate a very well reaised world, with some trully excellent characters.

In the end, you can only try them.

"Now is the only time there is" - a rue philosophers comment i believe, made by the Nightwatchman in 'Lacorona and the tin frog'. What a book. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

okay, i'll give it a shot. i'm into fantasy this summer because my two favorite RPG's haven't come out with their new games yet. i usually play RPGs in the summer. so i'll have to get my yayas out reading this summer! eddings will have to wait until i'm finished with warrior prophet tho. i'll be starting that this evening as i'm almost at the end of darkness. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

That's cool. I'm struggling through Warrior Prophet at the mo. I only say 'struggling' because i have no opportunity to read it, except at night, but im shattered by then. I have a huge backlog of books that need reading, so i should be occupied for a while.

So what are these RPGs you are waiting for? My personnal favourite is the computer game, Final Fantasy VII, you can't beat it. I just can't wait for Advent Children to be released,it looks amazing. Just gutted ill have to wait till Christmas to get it, if then. Darn you Americans and you quicker releases!! view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

Ha! so much for quick releases!! i'm waiting for a german game!!!!
Gothic III.
and the new Elder Scrolls incarnation, titled Oblivion, i think.

i like questing! Half Life 2 was fun (for a shooter, which i'm not into) just for the physics!!! just a blast! but only for about 36 hours!!!
i want a game that goes on and on and on. i like immersive. like books.

so i think i'm going to reload Morrowind and it's expansions back into my machine when i get home this evening because i've just played Gothic II to death.

haven't played Final Fantasy, is it PC? and what is Advent Children? view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by target, Auditor

Final Fantasy is an rpg by Square. The next game release is going to be number 12, but all in all it is much more than that in the series. I say serires, really they are all separate games. I think VII is the best, you should try it. Advent Children is a film being released in Aug/Sept. by SquareEnix. It is a sequel to FFVII set two years after the end of the game. It has all the characters in it and it looks really good. The graphics are awesome, and Sephiroth is a bad guy up there with some of the greats i think. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 26 July 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Lucimay, Subdidact

will check it out. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 03 October 2005 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Jesh, Candidate

Quote: "Echoex":1wfkzse6
I'm not sure if this has been discussed yet, but has anyone read the Thomas Covenant series by Stephen Donaldson?

I'd like to hear your thoughts.

Ex.[/quote:1wfkzse6]
I'm a easy guy, I even like WoT that so many hate, but Thomas Covenant is one of the few books I couldnt even finish. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 13 February 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by kremen, Commoner

Read the first trilogy in 2005 and was amazed at the amount of flat-out hatred, angst, etc. a main character could have written into him while sustaining an epic fantasy all at the same time. Maybe it had to do with the vulnerability aspect, maybe there was more, such as the willingness over the long hall to play hero despite not knowing how to. Or maybe it was all the really tiny things that latched on - the things like little thoughts he would have when people in the 'fantasy' world would do things that mirrored what fantasy readers think in certain situations when reading regular fantasy novels.

I should stop there, I could regress on the topic of 'fantasy' worlds and 'regular fantasy' novels but it's beside the point. The first trilogy is awesome work, I look forward to reading more in future times... but only after more Bakker! view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 21 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Brys, Candidate

I thought Thomas Covenant himself was a brilliant character, but I wasn't hugely impressed by the series as a whole. The parts set in the real world were by far the best written and most intriguing, as they helped to create a developed, realistic character and the attitudes of other people were entirely believable. But I found the storyline in the Land itself distinctly average - you have your pseudo-Middle Earth, with huge similarities, you have the stereotypical fantasy dark lord, the standard quest with a few companions, evil creatures that play exactly the same role as orcs in LotR...
Donaldson then goes on to make the mistake of writing lots of description about this very bland world, which kills the pacing. I only enjoyed the trilogy because of Covenant - within the Land, there were very few characters who were even reasonably developed and the plot was very predictable. It was one of those series where it's obvious the author has skill and could write something really good, but for whatever reason, decides to oversimplify the novel. There was one new idea in it - the anti-hero leper, Thomas Covenant, and that was a great idea. But not enough to last 1000+ pages.

For some reason I really enjoyed The Wounded Land though, and I can't quite pinpoint why, but then I hated the One Tree. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 21 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Murrin, Peralogue

It was one of those series where it's obvious the author has skill and could write something really good

Donaldson's sci-fi series, The Gap, is brilliant IMO. Better than all his other books. He really pared down his language around that time in his career, so the story doesn't get bogged down in description like the TC books sometimes did (The One Tree, for example, was slow moving and very difficult to read). view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 22 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by RedShift, Candidate

I second the recommendation for the Gap. It is truely incredible. My favourite is possibly the first book, which, although short, is just a perfect miniature... view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 22 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by FanManSC, Candidate

Donaldson is one of my favorite authors. I also recommend the Gap series, which is just as dark as Covenant. But the first Covenant series was the better of them. The first time I read them, I stayed up until 3 in the morning reading book 3 straight through.
I can agree with people that think he's whiny. but he is far more real as a character than most protagonists. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Brys, Candidate

Thanks for the recommendation - I'll check out the Gap series, as Donaldson always struck me as an author with a lot of potential.

The One Tree.... it was terrible IMO. Barely anything happened in it, and it was incredibly tedious. Especially as it came after the excellent The Wounded Land. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Murrin, Peralogue

Just FYI, the series is:
The Gap into Conflict: The Real Story
The Gap into Vision: Forbidden Knowledge
The Gap into Power: A Dark and Hungry God Arises
The Gap into Madness: Chaos and Order
The Gap into Ruin: This Day All Gods Die view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 25 June 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Randal, Auditor

From what I've seen, the Gap series is even darker than Covenant. I've only read the first series though, and that one isn't a great favourite of mine. I find myself agreeing with Brys.

The two books in the gap series I've read so far were much better. The characters outdo Covenant in the being screwed up department, though. They're not even anti-heroes anymore. I really have to find those last three books. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 24 August 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Harrol, Moderator

I have tried to get into the first book of the Thomas Covenant series but the pacing is killing me. So is the part where he raped the girl that was helping him and then appears to think nothing of it. view post


The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) posted 24 August 2006 in Literature DiscussionThe Chronicles of Thomas Covenant (first series) by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

He definitely has thoughts about the rape later in the series. view post


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