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Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 01 June 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Truth Shines, Candidate

Amazing! Browsing through the forums, not only it seems like the admin forgot to create a forum for the new book, in fact no one has posted a topic for the The White Luck Warrior! Well, let me take the first bloody crack at this thing then. I shall do some ranting here, all about how I don't like this book <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> Let's hope this provoke some reaction. I'll post more fanboy-ish stuff later. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Warning: some spoilers to follow.

Reading The White Luck Warrior, I really feel like Sarl: this is indeed the slog of slogs, boys! <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> There are three huge problems with this book, first pacing, second style, and third character.

In terms of pacing, this book is just too many pages with too little happening. Huge stretches the book are filled literally with the endless slogs -- both the Great Ordeal's, and the Skin Eaters' travels to Sauglish. For the great ordeal, at least we get two big battles (alas both too short), the first being by far the more interesting. For the Skin Eaters, it's just sheer torture as a reader -- until the very end with the interesting encounter with the dragon, it's just an endless succession of, well, nothing. Bakker could have replaced all of it with just one line -- &quot;one of the Skin Eaters is a skin spy, who protects pregnant Mimara for some ancient prophecy&quot; -- and it would have the same effect on the plot.

As for style, I fear Bakker may be heading toward the deep end here: preaching, preaching, and more preaching! He's becoming Cleric! It's one thing to hear &quot;men are always wont to...&quot; from the lips of Kellhus as part of a developing plot; it's another thing altogether to sit through page after page of this stuff hearing it directly from the author. Ouch!

Last, character. Well, there just aren't any interesting characters. Esmi is flat. Mimara is flatter. Sorweel is the flattest. Kelmomas is not, since he's a psycho, but he's just not interesting. To see how to write interesting psychos: check out Cnauir and Kellhus during PON. For those of you who complain about the all-knowningness of Kellhus -- well see how do you like the book now without Kellhus's point of view! It's as exciting as white bread dipped in water.

I have thought about why I don't like these new characters -- Mimara, Sorweel, Kelmomas (I've never liked Esmi very much). I think it has to do with far too much introspection. Both Cnauir and Kellhus do introspection, but they also emote openly: Kellhus with his preaching and jokes and manipulation, Cnauir with his wild shouts of &quot;who will murder me!&quot; and all that. These new people just think and think and think and eventually lose all energy.

I've read somewhere that the next book will be titled &quot;Unholy Consult.&quot; At this pace, some POV from the bad guys will be greatly welcomed just to spice things up a little. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 01 June 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Madness, Peralogue

Hi Truth Shines,

Perhaps you can be a pebble that causes the avalanche. This place has been dead and empty for a long time. Except for myself and some hardcores who mine the old Author Q&amp;A for infodumps.

We need to get a mod back to the forum (I've seen Harrol kicking around Westeros,) pump some life back into these forums. We need a Bakker forum.

Your continued speculation might be just what is necessary. Anyhow, liked you comments.

Peace, TS. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 05 June 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Truth Shines, Candidate

Heh, here comes the avalanche...

Anyway, thanks for the reply. Continuing the theme of my original post, I shall further detail some of the things I don't like about this book (again, this is not to say it's all bad, but this is the thread about the bad stuff).

Once again, returning to why I don't like these new people: Sorweel, Mimara, Kelmomas: I've thought about it a little more, and here's perhaps the deeper reason -- they are too passive. In one way or another, they feel strongly that they are tools in the hands of greater things directing them to some goal that is not their own. Sorweel feels he's both a tool of Yatwer and the Anasurimbor family; Mimara fears she's being manipulated by Kellhus, but also with both her on-again-off-again &quot;judging eye&quot; and surprise pregnancy she just doesn't feel in control (she originally had a goal -- to learn sorcery -- but that has been abandoned a long time ago, casting her adrift); Kelmomas is literally being directed by a voice in his head. The only other main character, Esmi, of course is even worse as she spends most of her time guessing why Kellhus has put her in charge. As plot development, there's nothing wrong with them -- if that's how the story goes, so be it; but when put in the place of main characters, I find them very very wanting. As main characters, they are supposed to be the driving force of the story. They are supposed to have agency.

Again, I return to the comparison between them and the two main characters of PON -- Kellhus and Cnauir (Akka is kind of a narrator, straight-man). Both of them are overflowing with this sense of self-direction, agency, and strong motivation. From that comes great energy, action, and emotion. In contrast, these new people (and really Esmetnet and Serwe in PON) are forever in a state of doubt, insecurity, weakness. Perhaps it's a matter of personal taste, but to me that's just not attractive. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 05 June 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Truth Shines, Candidate

Now a couple of random potshots <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

The assassination of Maithanet.

Well this just doesn't make sense. In fact I would like someone to explain to me the whole break between him and Esmi, coup, and assassination for me. None of this makes much sense. But the assassination most of all. How could someone hide in a room and not be seen or sensed by a Dunyain? How could he successfully carry out a crude stabbing against a Dunyain? And why didn't Maithanet see something in Esmenet's face when they were talking, before the assassin struck? The whole thing stretches this reader's credulity past the breaking point.

The destruction of the Army of the South.

On two points, the way it happened really bothered me. First, in the initial phase of the battle, the king in charge (forgot his name) sent ALL the sorcerers out to attack the Horde. I just have a hard time believing that an experienced commander will make as egregious a mistake as keeping no reserves. In the first battle by the Army of the North, Serwa kept 40-some witches back as reserves, and this saved them from the ten-yoke-legion, so how was this lesson not learned? (In fact it is so basic it should require no learning). Second, they appeared to be utterly unprepared by the appearance of the Bashrags. How is this possible? This is supposed to be a march against the forces of the Consult! I would assume The Sagas would have included records of these monsters; but even if not, the Mandate schoolmen surely have told everyone about it -- all the more reason to keep some sorcerers in reserve. Yet they seem to have made no preparation for the Bashrags (things they could have used even without sorcery: a reserve of heavily armored knights with long lances, ballista, etc.). view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 20 June 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

Woops, must stop reading, don't own WLW yet...heh, just attracted here by the activity... view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 27 July 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by sneroplex, Commoner

I'm assuming the assassin that killed Maithanet was the white luck warrior. Maithanet didn't do anything about it because he's Dunyain and thinks he's all badass with that 'what comes before determines what comes after' BS. The white-luck killed him because 'what comes after determines what comes before,' Maitha was already dead and that's why it was so easy for him to just walk up and casually stick a knife in his throat. Yatwer is at work.

It was not planned by Esmi, she even recognized him as her own assassin somehow... I was fully expecting him to kill her next but it didn't happen for some reason, the guy just stood there. Not her time yet I guess? Either way she quickly took control of the situation by claiming Khellus sent the assassin and that they should worship her again. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 01 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

On two points, the way it happened really bothered me. First, in the initial phase of the battle, the king in charge (forgot his name) sent ALL the sorcerers out to attack the Horde.

Because Kellhus manipulated them to screw up.

So as to enable the taboo breaking 'We will eat sranc' command to be adopted while, in defeat, the armies collective mental guard is down. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 04 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;sneroplex&quot;:wp45atst
I'm assuming the assassin that killed Maithanet was the white luck warrior. Maithanet didn't do anything about it because he's Dunyain and thinks he's all badass with that 'what comes before determines what comes after' BS. The white-luck killed him because 'what comes after determines what comes before,' Maitha was already dead and that's why it was so easy for him to just walk up and casually stick a knife in his throat. Yatwer is at work.[/quote:wp45atst]

I don't have the book with me, but I seem to remember that scene explicitly refers to the assassin as the person hired by Esmenet. But you may be right. The White Luck is just too mysterious. In fact, given how little we know of this being and how few glimpses we get of him, it might be said that the title of this book is really very badly chosen. He's almost as big of a mystery as the No-God.

Quote: &quot;Callan S.&quot;:wp45atst
Because Kellhus manipulated them to screw up. So as to enable the taboo breaking 'We will eat sranc' command to be adopted while, in defeat, the armies collective mental guard is down.[/quote:wp45atst]

I doubt it. If anything, losing one army makes it less compelling (fewer mouths to feed, more forage to go around). Eating Sranc is just a logistic necessity. But it is interesting to speculate on what will happen to those who do. We now finally know what &quot;chanv&quot; is -- dead Nonman. It makes those who eat it more Nonman-like. A parallel with Sranc is possible. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 08 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

I'm not sure chanv has been revealed, explicitly, has it? It sounds plausible, but I don't think it's been revealed? Personally my theory is that one of the nonmen who bared their neck to the human invasion was instead captured and if chanv is a nonmen body product, it's not from dead nonman but from his blood. They have a nonmen on tap somewhere. Vampiric, eh?

Eating Sranc is just a logistic necessity

It's easy to think that from the safety of a readers POV. I was thinking earlier on why didn't they eat the sranc - I thought maybe sranc are designed to be poisonous to eat, or become poisonous on death.

But remember, a huge theme in the books is cultural taboo. If it is taboo to eat sranc, it's not like they just say &quot;oh, it's logistically necessary, so well skip that taboo&quot;. I mean, that's what we do in roleplay sessions sometimes - have our character act like a perfectly logical robot who has no qualms about taking any means necessary (indeed, I often think this was an inspiration for Kellhus, from Scott's D&amp;D days). But as easy as it is to say an imaginary character does it, to actually do the thing - with your own mouth?

However, the effects on the army from eating sranc given they are derived from nonmen, yeah, that's interesting speculation to bring up! I had only thought of forfilling the need to feed, not any sort of effect beyond that. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 08 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Athjeari, Peralogue

I had thought it was fairly easy to determine that the assassin Esmenet hired was in fact the White Luck Warrior. The way the assassins behavior and actions were described, it seemed like it was the White Luck to me anyhow (granted, I think it shows the White Luck killing the original, intended assassin). Esmi has absolutely no idea of course, but that's kind of the point. The White Luck is not confined to the principle of before and after rather he sees the continuous stream of time. Events that take place after are apparent to him in the before.

IIRC, nobody said anything about the Southern King being a competent battle-commander. If anything, I think it was shown that he was an inferior commander because of the choices being made. Not to mention the stress that was being put on them from constantly having to be on guard. Most of the competent battle-commanders from the South were probably killed during the First Holy War (from the Prince of Nothing).

I don't think it's certain that Chanv is burnt Nonmen either. It's referred to as Qirri (sp?) in the book, where do you make the connection to Chanv? Where would Iyokus obtain such a supply of burnt Nonmen? I think it's a bit different.

You seem to try and attribute full Dunyain abilities to half Dunyain Maithanet too. He's not as powerful as Kellhus, and he readily admits this at times.

The idea of eating the Sranc could be very interesting, but I don't think we have any reason to believe the meat will do anything but offer sustenance. They'll be eating actual meat, not ash. That may be a determining factor on the effectiveness of any power within the meat/body of the Sranc/Nonmen. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 11 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Karol, Commoner

Just wanted to say I finished The White Luck Warrior yesterday and... well, I'm regretting reading it. Because now I have to wait until The Unholy Consult for my questions to be answered. And then I have to wait for the FINAL trilogy! I am going to be reading this series into my thirties. It is amazingly frustrating.

I've started re-reading The Prince of Nothing on Kindle but it's really, REALLY badly formatted. I am almost tempted to go and buy the paperback again... almost, but not quite. I have struggled through badly formatted Kindle books before and I will struggle once again!

I can't wait for the third book to be released but I suspect I'll be waiting until 2013! view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 15 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

I'm not sure weve seen much of the white luck warrior. In fact I rather feel that each book doesn't actually cover it's subject - I felt there was more judging eye action in white luck warrior than in the judging eye, for example. In fact I'd actually say that in each book - more thousandfold thought in judging eye, more warrior prophet in thousand fold thought. Not sure about TDTCB - that's kinda everywhere! Anyway, it seems the book after that covers the book before, to me!

Karol, how do they stuff up the formatting?

And you could go and harass Scott on his blog, to get the book out sooner &gt;:) view post


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