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A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 16 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Curethan, Didact

'How can what has come after affect what comes before?' Kellhus muses as he ponders the Celomomian prophecy at one point. I think the answer to that is when it lies outside what is, what was and what will be.
Ie the gods - or the big god, ie the creator

It's interesting to me that the dunyain sought isolation (efectively putting themselves outside) to try and achieve truth (or enlightenment or a self moving soul, call it what u will. The Consult, on the other hand want to close of the outside - I think to destroy the gods of men so they can achieve a similar kind of isolation - perhaps in their case so that their own 'gods' will evolve in a new outside whilst the can retain dominance over the world (pure speculation on my part).

Kellhus' assertion that the consult and the dunyain would unite is based on the fact that the dunyain must control their surroundings, I think, rather than the fact that their goals are truely the same. The dunyain can attain theirs with much less difficulty by simply isolating themselves and thus reducing the scope of what they must control rather than dominating the world and destroying all free thought (the shortest path remember).

Perhaps the dunyain are merely using the Anasurimbor line to ensure that the consult doesn't derail their little project. I mean the first thing a self moving soul would do would be to ensure its own existence, right? So, being all powerful and so forth, it would be a snap to reach back through time - tweak a few souls to say and do the right things, make a thousandfold thought and a prophecy and so forth so that it was succesfully 'born'. I mean, thats the paradoxical nature of omnicsient, omnipotent beings that can reach through time and space aint it - once you decide to make one, and there is the slight possibilty that you can succeed, it kind of balloons into certainty.

Hahahaha, this reminds me of my proof of why you can't build a time machine. Because if you could, you would go back in time - give yourself the plans/prototype and save yourself the effort, thus cancelling the time line where you built it out. As soon as this thought occurs to you, you have reduced your chances of succesfully making a time machine to zero. Well, maybe, maybe not, but it makes me laugh.

PS I'll be dissapointed if anyone replies to this thread <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 16 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:38y0m098

Hahahaha, this reminds me of my proof of why you can't build a time machine. Because if you could, you would go back in time - give yourself the plans/prototype and save yourself the effort, thus cancelling the time line where you built it out. As soon as this thought occurs to you, you have reduced your chances of succesfully making a time machine to zero. Well, maybe, maybe not, but it makes me laugh.[/quote:38y0m098]

Be dissapointed then.

The problem with this theory, and the similar &quot;Grandfather Paradox&quot; is relying on the idea that time is mutable. IF you, at some point in the future, discovered how to make a time machine, and thus travelled back in time, this simply makes it appear that effect precedes cause. Thus, even before you use the time machine, even before you thought of creating it, you have already existed in the past as a result of your travel.

To help myself clarify, I'm going to use the &quot;Grandfather Paradox.&quot; Suppose you did, for some dumbass reason, decide you wanted to go back in time to kill your grandfather before your father was conceived, thus creating a &quot;paradox&quot; because you thus wouldn't exist, resulting in the destruction of all space/time (or whatever result they think will happen).

You will fail. The very fact that you are alive proves that you failed, because you are still alive to make the ridiculous attempt. In this case, before you were even born, you already existed in the past, trying to kill your grandfather. You have already done everything you will on your &quot;future&quot; trip to the &quot;past,&quot; thus changing NOTHING. view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 16 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Harrol, Moderator

Yeah thanks for for giving me a headache Mandati <!-- s:evil: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_evil.gif" alt=":evil:" title="Evil or Very Mad" /><!-- s:evil: --> view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 17 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Curethan, Didact

ooh kay then. *I'm disappointed cuz now I have to expound on a subject I love to flounder around in, but is very slippery*

The crux of my little story that you quoted is entirely the problem that you point out with your 'grandfather paradox' (which I enjoyed btw). You can;t do it because if you could it wouldn't happen - no destruction of space time necesary <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> The grandfather paradox is the reverse of my example - u travel backwards to negate your present, in mine u travel forwards in order to negate the effort of your past... kinda. Whee fun.

However, my initial speculation is actually a tenable one (I think). To provide a more accessable anology, supose that we were devise a computer system that was designed to forment an artificial intelligence. To do so, we create a closed system in which certain programs are able to interact and evolve whilst affecting a predesigned environment that pressures and stimulates them (controlled by us). Herein we are the unseen and inscrutable gods that indirectly control their world and, for us, their perception of time is mutable. For example we can slow or speed things up, save and restore things from times past or just change the group concensus of past events by adjusting global data. (kinda like the Matrix I guess) Now say a segment of this evolving metaprogram sets out to make a trancendent individual that can evolve beyond our initial programming and attain 'free thought' (obviously I'm referencing the dunyain here. We 'gods' decide to let em go for it - hoping to get a true AI out of the deal mebe - even nudging things along with the occaisional 'fortuitous correspondence' here and there. So then at some point, this self moving program escapes the closed system - mebe makes itself a natty robot body or gets into the internet... Now I would suggest the first thing it would do would be to alter its native time stream to ensure its existence in both worlds by, say, removing certain vulnerabilties or altering peoples knowledge of it etc. Essentially, having reached a point 'outside' of its original world it is able to freely affect its past and future therein.

PS If you are interested in some really good speculative fiction that explores time and quantum collapse try Greg Egan's 'Quarantine' Its frikkin brilliant - gave me the most wonderful headache.

PPS If someone replies to this post again, I may be forced to expound my theory that relates the consult's objectives to Shroedinger's cat-in-a-box thought experiment. And no-one wants that. view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 18 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think in the books what comes after isn't influencing what comes before. Rather, I think what comes way back is making sure that both happen. I think the No-God was inspiring Kellhus to utter that particular prophecy and then the No-God made sure that things occurred as per the plan.

It's a neat way to circumvent the troubles of time travel. Just &quot;prophesy&quot; something seemingly unlikely and then use your supernatural powers (that still have to obey the laws of cause and effect) to make the &quot;prophecy&quot; come to pass, thus convincing the lowly mortals with no such supernatural powers that you or your mouthpiece can really tell the future.

No time travel is needed when you subscribe to the view that the No-God is intelligent, evil, has a clue, and has been manipulating the entire plot. view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 18 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Curethan, Didact

Explain the celomomian prophecy then. view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 18 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Simple: the No-God isn't the only god with plans making &quot;prophecies&quot;, or should I say promises. view post


A fortuitous correspondence of cause. posted 19 January 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]A fortuitous correspondence of cause. by Curethan, Didact

Well in that case the no-god doesn't have much of a chance with something that plans that far ahead under such extremely unlikely circumstances - true enough I guess, since the power in this instance is obviously the author... <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


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