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Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 11 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

By the end of TWP, some very strange things happen that convinced me (and by reading the forums, I can tell I'm not the only one) that maybe Kellhus really is being moved by the "God" or the "Outside" or whatever it is.

He does try to teach his followers at least the basic tenets of his beliefs (though obviously notsomuchas Conditioning them, that's only possible over a whole lifetime), or at least what he believes to be Truth to his "Tribe of Truth," so at least from his viewpoint, you really could say he's a good guy. He DOES try to improve those who follow him, not just convincing them he's doing so.

Also, there's the whole vision scene on the Circumfix, where Mog seems to actually speak to him, and the scene where he ripped out his heart (which I still don't understand).

And finally, the haloes on his hands, which everybody who believes he's a prophet sees, sometimes constantly, usually in glimpses.

However, after reading this wonderful trilogy for the fourth time, I noticed one little line in TWP that made this whole theory come crashing down for me..... When Serwe is getting raped/interrogated by the skin-spy posing as Kellhus, she still sees the haloes around his hands

Could this simply be a mass hallucination? As in, everybody sees these haloes because they want to see some visible sign of him being a prophet, stemming from a belief that Inri Sejenus had haloed hands as well?

For that matter, could Kellhus truly be broken/insane by the wilderness, as Moenghus suggests? The way is too far, Father view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 12 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Re: haloed hands, I just had an idea...

I think Kellhus is not the only character with the halos. I think Moénghus has them too, due to he also having access to the Thousandfold Thought (he sent a message to Kellhus where he mentions it). I think the halos are a side effect of the Thousandfold Thought, and the Thousandfold Thought is (or is part of) the No-God. I think Kellhus and Moénghus are BOTH prophets of the No-God, even though Kellhus probably doesn't realize it.

I have earlier speculated about Moënghus's ability to possess the bodies of others. (I think he is still alive and the body that was killed wasn't his real one.) I think he was possessing a skin-spy from afar to check up on how Kellhus was doing. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 12 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Israfel, Peralogue

Quote: "Mandati Wannabe":2y5knz62
And finally, the haloes on his hands, which everybody who believes he's a prophet sees, sometimes constantly, usually in glimpses.

However, after reading this wonderful trilogy for the fourth time, I noticed one little line in TWP that made this whole theory come crashing down for me..... When Serwe is getting raped/interrogated by the skin-spy posing as Kellhus, she still sees the haloes around his hands

Could this simply be a mass hallucination? As in, everybody sees these haloes because they want to see some visible sign of him being a prophet, stemming from a belief that Inri Sejenus had haloed hands as well?
[/quote:2y5knz62]

Although I thought Akka also saw the halos even though he didn't believe Kellhus was a prophet... I'd have to reread it to be sure though. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 12 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think Akka was believing for little bits of time here and there, but then his doubts about Kellhus's holiness would always reassert themselves. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 12 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: "Nerdanel":2b1qmiv3
I think Akka was believing for little bits of time here and there, but then his doubts about Kellhus's holiness would always reassert themselves.[/quote:2b1qmiv3]

This is more like how I saw it... except I think he was COMPLETELY convinced (If only for a time)... in fact, in his mind, Kellhus was MORE even than a prophet...

Recall the beginning of TTT, when Achamian finally informs the Mandate that an Anasurimbor has returned:

Akka: The Warrior-Prophet has no need of my protection
Nautzera: Why do you call him that? Achamian? Do you actually think the man's a prophet?
Akka: I don't know what I think... too much has happened.

Or slightly later in that chapter, when he's on his way to Kellhus:
"His skin tingled. Of all the world, of all the innumerable men scattered about all the innumberable lands, he, Anasurimbor Kellhus, communed with the God - the God! And how could it be otherwise, when he knew what no other man could know, when he spoke what no other man could speak?"

Even if the haloes ARE somehow connected to the Thousandfold Thought, why does the skin-spy-as-Kellhus have them? For that matter, why did Sejenus? Could Sejenus have been Dunyain? That thought scares me. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 13 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Khan, Commoner

Is Khellus really a Prophet?


Answer: No

Khellus is a very gifted cold reader and orator, but not a prophet. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 13 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: "Khan":3bfdw30a

Answer: No

Khellus is a very gifted cold reader and orator, but not a prophet.[/quote:3bfdw30a]

Ok, so what is your opinion on the strange things that happen to him?

i.e. The Haloes, the "Fortuitous Correspondence of Cause" with Saubon at Mengedda, the No-God visions, the heart ripping out, not the least his own conviction that he IS in fact an agent of a true Creator/God, etc. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Mandati Wannabe":1mppdtpi
Quote: "Khan":1mppdtpi

Answer: No

Khellus is a very gifted cold reader and orator, but not a prophet.[/quote:1mppdtpi]

Ok, so what is your opinion on the strange things that happen to him?

i.e. The Haloes, the "Fortuitous Correspondence of Cause" with Saubon at Mengedda, the No-God visions, the heart ripping out, not the least his own conviction that he IS in fact an agent of a true Creator/God, etc.[/quote:1mppdtpi]

A minor point but one that still needs making. It was Serwe's heart that Kellhus brandished after his ordeal not his own; how could he have possibly ripped out his own heart? view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Harrol, Moderator

anor is right it was Serwe's heart Kellhus was doing some trickery. Scott even said that section was worded in a confusing manner. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: "Harrol":3cadcofs
anor is right it was Serwe's heart Kellhus was doing some trickery. Scott even said that section was worded in a confusing manner.[/quote:3cadcofs]

Precisely why it can seem like a divine act? It certainly astounded me....

How exactly did he get hers? view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

There's no mention of gods performing divine acts in the three seas....

Ok, so what is your opinion on the strange things that happen to him?

i.e. The Haloes, the "Fortuitous Correspondence of Cause" with Saubon at Mengedda, the No-God visions, the heart ripping out, not the least his own conviction that he IS in fact an agent of a true Creator/God, etc.


The halo's are only seen when you believe... the gods are a product of the belief of men... when enough people believe Kellhus is a prophet, well then, he is. Don't matter that he was dunyain, or if the the way he has behaved was 'truely evil', he is being co-opted be that which lies outside - the very thing that the dunyain sought to escape for their mission. He's no longer dunyain, he asks 'god' for signs ... and acts upon the answer (i.e. the twig scene, en route to sorting out Mo) imo Kellhus is a prophet. A similar thing happens to Cnaiur. Akka describes madness as allowing the outside to 'leak in' and during the battle against Conphas he is seen as aspected by the god of war. Co-incidence or correspondence?

Interesting mention of the 'correspondence of cause' - the other occurs when the dunyain discover the child anasurimbor at ishual in the prologue... view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by coobek, Candidate

I don't think that Kelhus is a prophet. As it was mentioned it was not his heart he ripped. He is still a Dunyian and whole 'I am a prophet' thing was a shortest path to disturb Moenghus, whom he has killed IMO. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 14 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Mandati Wannabe":28p0zwg6
Quote: "Harrol":28p0zwg6
anor is right it was Serwe's heart Kellhus was doing some trickery. Scott even said that section was worded in a confusing manner.[/quote:28p0zwg6]

Precisely why it can seem like a divine act? It certainly astounded me....

How exactly did he get hers?[/quote:28p0zwg6]

It would have astounded both of us had we been there; we would have thought that the sun shone out of K's arse. But Kellhus was practising sleight of hand not sorcery, as do the "psychic" surgeons of the non-fantasy world. As to how Kellhus got her heart, recall that Kellhus punishment included the mutilation of his wife; evidently the Men of the Tusk (and Sarcellus) did a very thorough job. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 15 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

And what inspired Kellhus to pull the heart trick? As I said above, I think the Earwan gods don't go about smiting folk and performing miracles. I don't recall Inri doing so either - thats kind of the province of sorcerers (blasphemers <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> ) The only obvious influence of the sulfurous godlings that I felt was implied, was through their use of/leaking thru mad folks - i.e. Cnaiur, Kelhus, Inri, Serwe etc...

I think a bit of insanity is required to be a prophet don't you? Now if u don't mind, I'll just ask this twig the best way to save the world, cuz I'm the chosen one - I must be the chosen one, cuz all those idiots I fooled into believing I am told me so <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 15 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Inri Sejenus could heal blindness and I think he also did other miracles. I think Kellhus can't heal not because he's not a prophet but because he's a prophet of a different god, the sort of god who doesn't do healing. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 16 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

I dont think he would heal if he could either. And did Inri really heal blindness? There are 'prophets' running around in our world today who claim they do that too, and their followers believe 'em.... view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 16 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:106pcpc4
I dont think he would heal if he could either. [/quote:106pcpc4]


If Kellhus actually had the ability to heal, you bet he'd use it! It would make it ten times easier to get followers if he could actually perform cool, astounding miracles like that.

He wouldn't even have to TRY to persuade anyone that he was Kellhus, the God. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 16 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

Here's why I think he wouldn't. He follows the shortest path and he already recruits followers easily by saying just a few words. Sickly folk would flock to him if he revealed he could heal, and he would be wasting a lot of time and energy healing them or dislillusion them by healing selectively.

tbh, I had forgotten about Inri's healing miracle and I based my assertion on being unable to recall any mention of obvious miracles or divine acts in the books. I stand corrected on that point. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

But the more I think about it, the more I become conviced that the Earwan dieties (such as they be) interact with the world by influenced stressed or cracked psyches - intimated only by Akka's short sorcerous interpretation of madness.

I'll offer the correlating instances that occured to me. Twice Kellhus makes big calls that the men of the tusk see as miracles INDEPENDANT of his conditioning and the probability trance. The first time when he gives Saubon his head and then when he nears death on the circumfix. Saubon is definately a cracked jar and several times his unreasonable decisions serve Kelhus and his holy war well. On the Circumfix Kellhus internally (so we know he is being honest) admits that the probabilty trance has failed and he is at a point of crisis. The act of brandishing Serwe's heart does not seem determined by his abilities - rather it seems like a stroke of, dare I say it, divine inspiration similar to his snap decision to whisper 'make sure the shrial knights are punished' to Saubon.

Then there are Cnaiur's frequent counterintuitive actions - tho these are characteristic, they often serve Kellhus' 'destiny' very well. Serwe is the first to note Kelhus' glowing hands, the first to understand his 'divine nature', obviously she isn't the full quid but what is blind faith if not a form of madness? The kind that leads one to leap from a cliff on the ephemeral promise of salvation... view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 16 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:eb5f7iv5
But the more I think about it, the more I become conviced that the Earwan dieties (such as they be) interact with the world by influenced stressed or cracked psyches - intimated only by Akka's short sorcerous interpretation of madness. [/quote:eb5f7iv5]

I agree with this. I'm convinced that Onkis was actually speaking to Inrau, in the final moments of his life. Check it out... something catches his attention upstairs (which we find out in a few pages later is the Consult), and he asks himself &quot;Is that you, Onkis?&quot; The curious thing is, he gets a reply, and a correct one at that. Onkis tells him &quot;No&quot;, though he percieves this as his own thought, and asks himself why he's always doubting. Then moments later, he is told to &quot;Run,&quot; which would have saved his life, except he again perceived it as his own thought.


To your main point, I think I can at least intellectually understand why he wouldn't heal the masses of every little ailment. However, don't you think that he would have at least healed Xinemus, especially after Achamian, whom he needs to remain close to him, questions it the way he did? Certain rarer examples of healing, rather than simply healing the mob? view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 17 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

I thought about that when I was making my post. This is assuming he can heal - and I dont think he can, personally.... 2 possible interlinked reasons sping to mind.

1. Kelhus has no sympathy - only the illusion of it.
2. Mebe the probability trance revealed that Xinemus was one of the spurs to Akka's doubting nature and that he would be more likely to succumb to Kelhus completely without him. I have the nagging feeling that Akaa ends up exactly where Kelhus wants him at the end of TTT. Kelhus was even able to play Cnaiur to great effect - unless his (debatable) feelings for Esme blinded him, its highly unlikely that he could have screwed up manipulating Akka to the extent that he ends up an enemy that Kelhus has to allow to walk free.... view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 17 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Madness, Peralogue

I'm not really in the mood or mindset to write this; I'm incited, however. I believe after reading Curethan's last that this needs to be considered by those still involved in discussion.

These may seem unconnected or connected. I believe that some may just have to share my mindset in order to understand regardless.

1. I often say I am inspired by Bakker and I mean it entirely. He has laid out a life's path before me. I write this to show: Bakker is a modern day philosopher. He is attempting to communicate his own philosophies through his fiction; something I believe works amazingly. I'm not talking about how heavily his world utilizes and has it's own philosophy; I'm writing about how philosophies underlying even Eärwa's own apply to our world. Everything on it's way will rely heavy on Eärwa's philosophies and Bakker's own.

2. In the novels, Bakker relays to us readers that the Dûnyain see &quot;what comes before.&quot; I think most of us can accept that Kellhus can see more of &quot;what comes before&quot; than most Dûnyain.

Now, whether or not I believe this, say that The God (which is a whole nother argument I'm ommiting here) is communicating to Kellhus in a different way rather then just speaking in his mind. In a way that Kellhus cannot ignore as madness. Say that Kellhus is seeing so much of what comes before that he can see how The God created the world, can see, perhaps, messages in everything that comes before that make him a servant.

Just food for thought. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 17 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Madness, Peralogue

Just a quick note I thought of while I was out. I read speculation about Inri Sejenus being a Dûnyain and then in this thread someone mentioned Kellhus, perhaps, using a third innutteral as a way to travel time.

What if Inri Sejenus was Kellhus? view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 17 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

Heehee, Kellhus is Inri. I like that idea.

From the above posts, I think that we also agree that Kellhus is or is becoming a prophet too. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 20 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think being able to heal would have been a great help to Kellhus. Healing would have been a great way to gather converts and convince the doubters that Kellhus was indeed just like Inri Sejenus. If he could heal, Kellhus would probably prevented himself being swamped by only healing the &quot;worthy&quot;, where people could prove their worthiness by doing what Kellhus told them.

And by the way, I think Achamian breaking with Kellhus was definitely not what Kellhus wanted. All it accomplishes is to give him a powerful enemy with a brain who knows him too well for comfort. Sure, Kellhus's killability is at an all-time low and killing him is practically impossible even for one such as Achamian, but Achamian is still a bad enemy to have. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 21 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

Yup, he's choc full of knowledge and intellect - and Kellhus knows how dangerous those are. And I dont think Kellhus can heal either. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 27 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

I think the important thing is to define what it means to be a prophet. A prophet is someone who speaks the word of god and I do very much believe that Kellhus speaks the word of god. It is my belief that the Thousandfold Thought would enable one to reach the voice of god, mostly because I believe god is an expression for collective consciousness. There is none more suitable to the task of being a prophet, just think of it, he's the only one who can stop the no-god, he is mankinds last hope and he realizes that. It was too late for Moenghus, he couldn't outgrow the Dunyain and Kellhus realized that if he lived he would sooner or later realize the seriousness of the no-god and what they were about, sealing the rift between this world and the next to save their souls. Kellhus has chosen to save all of mankind. He has chosen to stop the no-god from destroying this world. If nothing else I believe that he believes strongly enough in himself to actually be the prophet he thinks he is. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 29 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

Even as Kellhus has rewritten the history and cultures of the 3 seas, they have rewritten him. Becoming a prophet was the only way he could rise. When he learned the Gnosis he became steeped in the history of Earwa. His mission complete, he became an empty vessel for the beliefs he reshaped to become home. He is now a figure of destiny, a shaper of the future, but no longer dunyain...

I recall that Moeghus' first words to Kellhus; that their blood is the most important thing in the world. Is he speaking of dunyain heritage or the anasurimbor? When the dunyain found the last of the anasurimbor line, their leader noted a great correspondence of cause. The same term Moeghus later applies to Kellhus' prophecy of the Shrial knights. Of course the Dunyain knew of the celomoman prophecy when they first came to Ishual. To accept that the leaders of the dunyain are ignorant of their own history is unwise. Their origin is what determines their task. They may isolate themselves from the world, but they do not isolate themselves from themselves. Although all trace of sorcerous knowledge was obliterated from their new home, this does not mean that all dunyain are ignorant of it, just that the majority of the must be to ensure that Ishual remains conditioned as the Pragma dictates....

This is why Akka will quest to uncover the origins of the Dunyain in AE, their history will illuminate the true nature of the warrior-prophet and the Thousandfold Thought. (Why do we accept that Moenghus was it's progenitor and not, like Kellhus, merely it's pawn?) view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 31 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by lfex, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:304j9p0g

I recall that Moeghus' first words to Kellhus; that their blood is the most important thing in the world. Is he speaking of dunyain heritage or the anasurimbor? [/quote:304j9p0g]


I suppose that after two thousand years of what in practice amounts to inbreeding all Dunyain have Anasurimbor blood. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 31 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Harrol, Moderator

It is because of the dunyain heritage. All those years of selective breeding has as Ifex stated led to inbreeding and specialization. view post


Is Kellhus really a prophet? posted 01 August 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtIs Kellhus really a prophet? by Curethan, Didact

If you say so...

But personally I don't believe the Anasurimbor were used as breeding stock. If it were so all, then all dunyain would be anasurimbor and vice versa. No, Kellhus is the direct descendant and a figure of destiny. As I stated above the dunyain were fully cognizant of that when they came to Ishual. A correspdence of cause is clearly different from a useful discovery.

Like it or not the anasurimbor line is key and the celomomian prophecy holds import. The quotes that I highlighted are intentionally meaningful; clues that Scott has left for us. Their context and resonance is clear to me, although they are intentionally ambiguous. view post


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