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The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 11 December 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by JGoose, Commoner

I am just pointing out an observation of mine here... In the Prince of Nothing series, the term sorceror applies to those who can use magic either gnostic or anagogic and is affiliated with one of the many schools in Earwa. Whereas a Wizard is the same being just not affiliated with a school and is generally looked at as a something you dont want to be for fear of persecution etc.
In other books such as Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden series a Wizard is the highest magical being and doesnt have a school and sorcerors (specifically in Butchers novels) are looked at as lesser beings (specifically with only the magical talents to destroy things). Also Merlin (most notably from Once and Future King and many other fantasy novels) is a Wizard and although not affiliated with any school is not persecuted or treated as a lesser magical being for him being a Wizard.
Why do you think that Bakker did the old switcheroo terms here? view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 09 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Trinket, Candidate

Not too sure about your question, but Bakker uses all the magical fantasy terms at some point. Look:

Sorcerer- Person who can work sorcery and has a school

Witch- Female who can work sorcery

Wizard- Someone who can work sorcery and doesn't have a school

Shaman- Prophet who can work sorcery (not exactly sure where it says this one, but I think it's in WP and Achamian is pondering what Kellhus will be with magic)

Witch-King- When Kellhus asks Achamian about singing the gnosis in triplicate, he tells him it's impossible, but remembers tales about the "Witch-King of the Ancient North who had the ability to speak sorcery with three voices (two unspoken). Kellhus later uses the triple singing method and turns the cant of calling into a cant of transposing, making him a Witch-King as well (Or at least having the same abilities). view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 09 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Harrol, Moderator

I believe the being who could do one inutteral string and two utteral strings at the same time was a nonman king. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 09 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Curethan, Didact

Wouldn't be surprised if it turnes out to be Celomomas.. although as far as I can remember there is no mention of him being able to use magic, aside from popping out a prophecy as he died (which didn't seem to shock Seswatha) - but that would be some kickass magic right there, yeh? (divine in origin one would imagine) I mean it is the only prophecy mentioned in the books, and defies Kelhus' ability to work into his veiw of how things work.

On topic, my understanding (not sure where I derive this from though I have read ALOT of classical myths and legends) of the classic use of the term sorcerer is as a magic wielder who derives his power from an outside source channeled through himself, whereas a wizard would be one who utilizes incatations, rituals and the like to manipulate the magics that exist all around.

As for Bakker's choice to designate the titles as he has, I could not speculate a reason beyond the desire to differentiate a caste within his vision of magic users. I would suggest that the examples the OP cites are merely arbritrary. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 09 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Almighty Tallest, Candidate

I would assume that they are largely arbitrary choices by Bakker. But there is some linguistic insight to it, as well.

Sorceror - When you hear the word, you get the image of a powerful, secretive, fear-inspiring man. It conjures feelings of animosity and dread, which is largely how they are perceived by the majority of people in the Three Seas.

Wizard - The word 'Wizard' carries a lot with it. It's overdone in fantasy, but it still brings to mind images of old men in robes, weighted under burdens that you or I could not possibly comprehend. It has a lot of the connotations that 'sorceror' does, but adds to it a feeling of both nobility and sorrow. Achamian is the only Wizard we see, and by the time TTT ends, I think that's a fairly accurate description of the man.

Witch - Though witches can be both male or female, the vast majority of people instantly think of the classic female archetype when they hear this word. So it being a term for those few Few (sorry) who are also women is a good choice.

Shaman - When you hear the word, you are instantly reminded of the wise old man, looking after his people with both his natural magic and his divine Sight. Shamans are spiritual leaders, predicting the future, healing the sick, and dispensing the laws of the gods. Which sounds an awful lot like a Sorcerer who is also a Prophet to me. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 10 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Trinket, Candidate

Alright thanks Harrol. But Achamian does refer to him as Witch King, I'm sure of it... somewhere in the Warrior Prophet near the beginning of Kellhus' tutoring of the Gnosis. I'll hunt it down sometime and post the quote. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

EDIT: I just decided that it's in TTT, not the WP. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 10 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Trinket, Candidate

Yay I found it! Page 175 of my paperback Thousandfold Thought.

Kellhus nodded. &quot;Has anyone experimented with further inutteral strings?&quot;
Achamian swallowed. &quot;What do you mean?&quot;
...
&quot;Has anyone devised cants consisting of two inutteral strings?&quot;
The &quot;Third Phrase&quot; was a thing of myth in Gnostic sorcery, a story handed down to men during the Nonman Tutelage: the legend of Su'juroit, the great Cunuroi Witch-King. But for some reason, Achamian found himself unable to relate the tale.
&quot;No,&quot; he lied. &quot;It's impossible.&quot;

Okay so we were both right Harrol. Definitely a Nonman, and a Witch King. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 10 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Curethan, Didact

Ah, thanks for the research.

Witch-King... interesting linguistic twist when you consider Tallest's points above. Perhaps a mere reflection of Tolkien nostalgia though. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 10 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I suppose we will have &quot;sorceresses&quot; in Aspect-Emperor...

Also, I wonder what the term &quot;witch&quot; meant to the Nonmen. It clearly wasn't a female spellcaster, unless the Nonmen use &quot;king&quot; to mean &quot;queen&quot; and I very much doubt it. Perhaps witch meant a user of evil or forbidden magic and only later came to be associated with women by humans. view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 11 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Trinket, Candidate

Maybe, but you're right, strange that Witch should be associated with a ... nonMale? character, but I have to say that the Witch-King (Tolkien's Witch-King) is probably my favourite antagonist of all time. Especially in the movie versions. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


The terms Wizard vs. Sorceror posted 11 July 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe terms Wizard vs. Sorceror by Curethan, Didact

Quote: &quot;Nerdanel&quot;:13xkta77

Also, I wonder what the term &quot;witch&quot; meant to the Nonmen. It clearly wasn't a female spellcaster, unless the Nonmen use &quot;king&quot; to mean &quot;queen&quot; and I very much doubt it. Perhaps witch meant a user of evil or forbidden magic and only later came to be associated with women by humans.[/quote:13xkta77]

That makes sense to me. view post


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