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Moenghus as Harbinger posted 01 December 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Conphas, Commoner

Just some idle speculation...

We already know that the Consult is using the Holy War to destroy the Cishaurim. It is also widely agreed that Moenghus is one of the leaders of the Cishaurim and that he has had 30 years to entrench himself in the Three Seas.

This brings me to my main idea regarding the Celmomian Prophecy. There already was an Anasurimbor in the Three Seas region 30 years before Kellhus showed up! Achamian doesn't know this and so much of the books' focus (through Akka) is on Kellhus as the Harbinger, and thus the reader's focus is also on this as well.

But I don't think there is any way that an author as sophisticated as Bakker would leave this to chance. With how important the Celmomian Prophecy appears to be, would he really intend Kellhus as the Harbinger when his father has technically, already fulfilled the Prophecy?

That leaves a big question regarding Kellhus' role in the series though. What role will he play in the coming Apocalypse? Could he be the avatar of Mog-Pharau himself?

Anyway, I think Moenghus is the Harbinger and Kellhus' role is yet to be defined. We really don't even know what his intentions are when it comes to finally standing face to face with his father.

Or then again, maybe I'm stating the blatantly obvious...what do ya'll think? view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 08 December 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by anor277, Didact

I meant to respond to this thread earlier, well here's my 2pence.

I think it is perfectly reasonable to question the role of both Moenghus and his son Kellhus, even given that Kellhus is probably exceptional, even for a Dunyain. The problem is that we don't know what are their agenda. Is Kellhus working for the Dunyain; is he working for his father; is he working for a purpose that is yet unspecified? Probably the latter, and try as I might, like Cnaiur, I just cannot fathom what it is. Regarding the prophecy, it is true that there are 2 Anasurimbors in the three seas; in a few months there will be a third, Esmenet's child; for all we know he is the Anasurimbor referred to in the prophecy if indeed the prophecy is valid. Esmenet's child will necessarily be "world born", but with Kellhus and Esmenet (and Achamian?) as his teachers, he might surpass both father and grandfather (and why do I assume that Esmenet's child will be a he?) view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 08 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

It would be kind of cool to see a female Dunyain in action. But more interestingly, what would a Dunyain be like who is world born, inspite of good teachers. I don't think Dunyain training can be replicated outside the monestary...

When an Anasurimbor returns. That is sufficiently vague. No lag time specified and no clarification about whether it has to be a known Anasurimbor or not...

We are following a vaguely Christian pattern, first John the Baptist and then the big bang himself. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 08 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: "anor277":eqxakq9y
Regarding the prophecy, it is true that there are 2 Anasurimbors in the three seas; in a few months there will be a third, Esmenet's child; for all we know he is the Anasurimbor referred to in the prophecy if indeed the prophecy is valid. Esmenet's child will necessarily be "world born", but with Kellhus and Esmenet (and Achamian?) as his teachers, he might surpass both father and grandfather (and why do I assume that Esmenet's child will be a he?)[/quote:eqxakq9y]

I've thought about the Celmomian Prophecy a lot and I've come to a few conclusions.

First of all, I think we can consider Kellhus to really be the Harbinger. In order for him to be the Harbinger he has to be known as an Anasurimbor, and since Moenghus has done his best not to be identified as one, it's safe to assume the role of Harbinger is Kellhus's. After all he did warn the people who count (more or less) about what's about to happen, and with time to spare...

Now we come to the second consideration. Kellhus's son (I also think it'll be a son, and his name will be Celmomas <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->). Somewhere in TWP Kellhus thinks about the Consult, the Apocalypse and mortality. He concludes that the only way to beat time and death is through sons. So I think the person Celmomas talks about in the prophecy could be (in part) Kellhus's son.

If we reckon the Apocalypse will start some twenty years after the conclusion of PoN, and that it will last long enough for Kellhus to grow old or die <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->, (unless he becomes an immortal god in the meantime <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->) the only person who can reasonably live to gain victory over the Consult is Kellhus's son.

Just a few thoughts... looking forward to comments! view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 15 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Andrew, Peralogue

i agree that it is important that only Kellus is currently known as an Anasurimbor. Kellus made the point to Akkamian when he was first told the Celmomanian prophecy, that there has always been an anasurimbor - living in Ishual. For that matter, given 2000 years since the apocolypse, probably every dunyain has a little anasurimbor in him/her. So the prophecy clearly cannot relate to the mere existence of an anasurimbor, nor to someone who knows they are an anasurimbor, b.c clearly the Dunyain have retained their names over the last 2000 years (or kellus wouldn't have known his own true name). If Moengus were known as an anasurimbor, i doubt that Kellus would have taken the consult by surprise. Clearly Moengus is some kind of dangerous mystery to the Consult, which is why the consult wants to wipe out the Cishaurim.

I don't agree with the point about Kellus' son being of great importance with respect to the prophecy or the victory over the consult - kellus is only 40 something. I'm sure that genetically he is a superior individual so he can reasonably remain vigorous and powerful well into his 60's or 70's - recall that the Pragma's who trained Kellus were old.
I think you'd need someone at the height of their powers to take on the No-God/Consult/whoever else - not some 20 yr old pup who lacked the benefit of a Dunyain upbringing. In 20 years Kellus will have mastered the Gnosis plus who knows what other magic and he'll have an empire to lead into war and he'll have his regular dunyain skills. What will his son have? view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 16 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Mithfânion, Didact

I don't agree with the point about Kellus' son being of great importance with respect to the prophecy or the victory over the consult - kellus is only 40 something

33 actually. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 16 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Just like Jesus. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 17 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Mithfânion, Didact

Yep, and I doubt that's a coincidence. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 18 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Andrew&quot;:ddzbcirm
I don't agree with the point about Kellus' son being of great importance with respect to the prophecy or the victory over the consult - kellus is only 40 something. I'm sure that genetically he is a superior individual so he can reasonably remain vigorous and powerful well into his 60's or 70's - recall that the Pragma's who trained Kellus were old.
I think you'd need someone at the height of their powers to take on the No-God/Consult/whoever else - not some 20 yr old pup who lacked the benefit of a Dunyain upbringing. In 20 years Kellus will have mastered the Gnosis plus who knows what other magic and he'll have an empire to lead into war and he'll have his regular dunyain skills. What will his son have?[/quote:ddzbcirm]

Well, that's as may be . . . I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm not really sure if Kellhus's son (or daughter) will be instrumental in winning over the Consult. Still, you'll grant it is significant that both Cnaiur and Kellhus have or are about to have offspring.

I see Kellhus and Cnaiur as the main characters, at least in regard to fighting the Consult. I think we can go along with Proyas in thinking that Cnaiur may be as important a figure as Kellhus himself. So them having sons is to me an important detail for the future storyline.

As far as training goes, I put a question about Dunyain training (and if it could be done outside of Ishual and among grown-up world-born men) to Scott and while he didn't answer he said it was important for the future storyline.

Also bear in mind that both Moenghus and Kellhus are already training their followers in the way of the Logos.

Since I expect Kellhus's son to have all the innate genetic advantages of his father, and also Dunyain training, he could well be a thorn in the side of the Consult.

I'd also remind you of the real-world example of Alexander the Great, or in Earwa of Ikurei Conphas who has won many important battles in his early twenties (I judge him to be in his late twenties when he wins at Kiyuth).

All that said I think we can easily assume that Kellhus's son will be an important player in the tale of the Second Apocalypse. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 21 February 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Andrew, Peralogue

ya make some good points. However, here follows the decisive counter to any and all arguments which might be raised: NO 3rd generation child ever did better than the preceding generations. I think it's a law of nature. Young Anasurimbor will inherit 3 empires and blow them all before s/he turns 30 on cheap liquor and Nonwomen Harlots. view post


Moenghus as Harbinger posted 02 April 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMoenghus as Harbinger by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

I continue to hold out hope that Kelhus's child will be a girl - after all, in the mysoginistic world of the Three Seas, where the harridan, harlot and waif are armed only with the weapons of the weak, what else could herald the end of the world but an all powerful female! view post


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