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Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 30 October 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Erthaelion, Candidate

Lets get some discussion happening here.

Whats gonna happen?

How does everyone feel about the Kellhus/Gnosis situation that looms over everything? Will Akka ovecome his newfound loathing for Kellhus that was borne of Esmi's betrayal? Will he see past the man's monstrous tendencies and do what may be the only thing that saves the world?

Will Conphas betray the Holy War at the walls of Shimeh? Will the city fall despite his treachery?

What does everyone make of the references to the Emperor's impending doom? Mundane death, Istraya's betrayal, or something more?

Who is Maithanet? What does everyone make of his his meeting with Ikueri Xerius III at Xothei?

What will happen with Cnauir and Moenghus? Revenge, or failure and damning insanity? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 01 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

While it’s probably dangerous to anticipate the next novel – we don’t know who the factions are and I suspect a few rabbits will be pulled out of a few hats – here’s my 2 pence and cut me to pieces if necessary.

Achamian will probably swallow his jealousy regarding Esmenet and teach Kellhus the Gnosis. Further involvement by the Mandate is probably very likely indeed – they may have other agents in the holy war and surely they might have heard rumours of an Anasurimbor (Atyersus is close to Shimeh by sea and it would be interesting to see how the Scarlet Spires will cope with a corps of Mandate sorcerers – probably by kissing their ar$es).

As far as the holy war goes, increasingly Kellhus’s tool, I think that the Kianene have mustered their last host. Fanayal (? the Padirajah’s son) spirited away his brothers and sisters in the last battle and will probably try to consolidate his rule from Nenciphon (i.e. inner Kian). So I think the last march of the holy war will be uncontested up to Shimeh. Where this leaves Conphas and his pact with the Kianene is anybody’s guess. If Conphas is not now a disciple of Kellhus (and he is probably too self-centred to be one) I doubt that he will have the opportunity to subvert the holy war before Shimeh – he has too many powerful opponents, Kellhus and his followers for one, and the Scarlet Spires for another. Conphas is probably flexible enough to ignore the pact his emperor negotiated – the Kianene seem to be impotent now. (As an aside, if the Consult still have skin spies in the Nansur court, I think Istriya, Xerius’ mother, is the prime suspect.)

So how does Maithanet fit into this? If he is a skin-spy (and yes I know he ordered Proyas to help Achamian) there’s a chance of him being revealed as was Sarcellus and Skeaös. Should this happen maybe Kellhus will be the “latter latter prophet” and supplant the thousand temples. I’ve got no clue how Mallahet fits into all of this (if he is indeed Moenghus) – a meeting between Cnaiür and Moenghus is likely indeed. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 02 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

In respect of the last post re: kellus learning the Gnosis from Akka - Consider: every book title thus far is related to the development of Kellus - from Dunyain to a prince of nothing; from prince of nothing to warrior prophet. The original title for book 3 was "when sorcerors sing" - the Pskuhe (whatever) is a mental sorcery whereas the Anagogis and the Gnosis are spoken (and frequently referred to as 'song') - thus Kellus will certainly learn either the Anagogis, or the Gnosis if he is to be transformed into a 'singing sorcerer' (realllly tough!). I would bet heavily on him learning the Gnosis from Achamian.

My only other comment is that I think Conphas and his intended betrayal of the Holy WAr has become completely irrelevant. The Warrior Prophet has absolute command of the Holy war (recall final battle of TWP - recall throat slitting emissary scene prior to final battle). Kellus realizes that something far greater than he expected to find is before him. It's not just about using the Holy War to kill his daddy anymore. I don't think he will allow the Holy War to destroy Shimeh. Frankly, I don't think anyone who is a part of the Holy War will be able to prevent Kellus from exercising absolute control, the question is what will he do with that control? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 02 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Given Conphas suspicions that Kellhus is a Cishaurim spy, it would truly be ironic if Kellhus spares Shimeh and the Cishaurim. Nansur suspicions were from the beginning untenable: had Kellhus been a Cishaurim operative why should he betray a skin spy? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 03 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Erthaelion, Candidate

Well, now I have a pile of ideas that will come out in a most discombobulated form, so bear with me and endure this mess.

Regarding Kellhus' power:

He quite obviously has a firm grip on the Holy War, but can he halt their march before Shimeh? If he does need to save th Cishaurim, or save humanity, if thats at all a concern of his, how does he stop the Holy War? Granted, the obvious reply is, " He's Kellhus; he could probably make them prance around pleasuring themselves for days on end, if he told them they should." But realistically, he has to subvert a horde of men empowered by their intoxication on faith. The Men of the Tusk are, in all liklihood, going to be hungry for ultimate victory. How can Kellhus stop them now?

Regarding Conphas:

Unless I misunderstand, he still holds plenty of sway among the Great Names. Wasnt it he who denounced the Consult and Achamian before everyone? Lets face it: if not for Kellhus, Conphas would have taken control of this mess a long time ago. Kellhus is dividing power, not uniting it. I dont know what to think the outcome of the struggle for power will be, but the key is, not everyone, especially not all the Great Names, believe in kellhus 100%. And, if we're going to be on the topic of titles, what do you make of "Aspect-Emperor" as a title for the next series? Smells like Conphas to me.

Cnaiur:

Seems like he's really lost the handle, especially with his kid being named after his mortal enemy. Ouch. He's the wildcard, in that anything is possible when that wacko's flyin around.

The title:

I dont know if the TT refers to sorcery. I mean, it probably does in some way, but who knows. Its Moengus'/ Mallahet's(if it is him, which seems entirely likely) idea, but does it involve sorcery, or the No-God, or something else? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 03 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by saintjon, Auditor

I think Cnaiur killed said kid didn't he? There was some comment about no limit to the babies he'd strangle, and he had a knew swazond over his throat. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 03 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

@Saintjon;

As I recall the "swazond" on Cnaiür's neck was in fact a suicide hesitation mark where he hadn't cut deep enough while attempting to top himself. As far as I know little Moenghus, almost certainly his natural son, is still safely guarded by Kellhus' followers who are under the impression that Kellhus is the father. (NB I've never looked closely enough at the dates in TDTCB and TWP to convince myself that Kellhus could not be the father, nevertheless, that seems to be the case.)

@Erthaelion;

In my view, the "Aspect Emperor" refers to Kellhus not Conphas. As regards Conpahs' denunciation of the Consult (before Achamian), the fact that he'd been working hand in glove with Sarcellus, a proven skin spy, may have severely tarnished the Nansur lustre. But I've been egregiously wrong before. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 03 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Erthaelion, Candidate

Little Moe is alive in Esmi's care from the sounds of things. And the swzond on his neck was from trying to kill himself, right again. Good call Anor. Also, good call on the Sarcellus-Conphas link. But I dont see Conphas losing lustre quickly. Too much charisma, too intelligent.

Kellhus as Aspect Emperor? I dunno about that. Its been proven he's not even a caste-noble. I guess, however, he is a descendant of the HIgh Kings of Kuiniri, but still, ASpect Emperor?

I still thinks its Conphas.

What does everyone think about the Emperor dying and Maithanet? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by saintjon, Auditor

YOu guys think cnaiur would give himself any swazond without someone else's life to show for it?

As far as a failed suicide attempt, wouldn't that be ironic given how good he is at killing other people.

For my part, I'll believe Moenghus the younger is still alive when I see him that way in the next book <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

What's all this about "Aspect Emporer"?

I don't think the "Thousandfold Thought" has to do with sorcery either. I was talking about the original title for the book which was "when sorcerors sing".

In terms of Kellus being able to turn the holy war from Shimeh, I don't think it would take any effort at all. I think that by the end of Warrior Prophet the Men of the Tusk have come to believe en masse as sincerely as Serwe believed. Whatever Conphas' sway when he was denouncing Akka, that came BEFORE thousands saw Kellus first defended by Cnaiur AGAINST a skin spy, then, cut from the tree he had hung from upside down for days only to rise up and stand before them with strength, almost as a God - then Kellus led them, starving and near death into battle against a well fed numerically superior enemy - and they won! Do not discount the portion at the end of Warrior Prophet right before we are introduced to Aengelas... "The Holy War had been absolved" ... "And to anyone who listened, they would whisper a revelation...The secret of battle. Indomitable conviction. Unconquerable belief." - That is referring to the conviction and belief of the Men of the Tusk IN KELLUS. Whatever Kellus tells them to do, they will regard as the very will of the God. Kellus could probably have them turn on Maithanet himself and they would. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Erthaelion, Candidate

Andrew, I agree to an extent...

You're gonna tell me Proyas is gonna do a 180 and abandon the mission for Shimeh, though? I dunno, I agree Kellhus looks pretty godlike right now, but I cant see them giving up on Shimeh without damn goodreason at this point.

"The Aspect-Emperor" is, if I'm not enitirely misled, the name of the next series Scott is writing in the saga. I figure its a name refering to Conphas, but its just a guess. Aspect-Emperor was the name given to the rulers of the Ceneian Empire, correct? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Good posts…finally some discussion as to where the books are going. Regarding the fate of the Holy War, I was trying to find a chapter heading that features an excerpt from Achamian’s “Compendium of the 1st Holy War”. From memory, Achamian mentions the crusade’s failure, and then qualifies the term, “did I say failure, no transformation” or something similar. It’s clear that the simple reconquest of Shimeh will not be the defining point, and maybe rather the development of an empire around Shimeh will conclude the crusade (with Kellhus possibly its emperor) – I suppose this harks back to the historical crusades when Outremer kingdoms were built in the Holy Land. Again I don’t think that Shimeh can evade capture. Now at least for the low castes, Kellhus would be a good choice as king/emperor for the newly conquered territories; whether he can persuade Conphas, world born though he is, is a different matter. And of course we don’t know yet what Kellhus’ mission to Shimeh actually is: to kill his father, or to learn from him?

Maithanet is another mystery – there’s some evidence that he is a skin spy, (i) he could recognize Achamian as a sorceror (via Seswatha), and (ii) the 1000 temples has apparently been purged of spies and the Consult had a hand in some of the purging. If this is the case it would not be beyond Kellhus to demonstrate (by unmasking the Shriah if he makes a pilgrimage to Shimeh) that the Inrithi worshipped not the God but the Consult…So when does the Thousandfold Thought come out? view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 22 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Grallon, Candidate

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:2krs6yrp
...

Maithanet is another mystery – there’s some evidence that he is a skin spy, (i) he could recognize Achamian as a sorceror (via Seswatha), and (ii) the 1000 temples has apparently been purged of spies and the Consult had a hand in some of the purging. If this is the case it would not be beyond Kellhus to demonstrate (by unmasking the Shriah if he makes a pilgrimage to Shimeh) that the Inrithi worshipped not the God but the Consult…So when does the Thousandfold Thought come out?[/quote:2krs6yrp]


As someone suggested elsewhere, and as alluded above, the TT is likely the transformation of a crusade of the Inrithi against the Fanin in a crusade to save mankind. In other words the repudiation, first by Moenghus, then his son, of Ishual's mission. I think M, who was the first Dunyain (Dunedain anyone <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->) to venture into the world in a long time, stumbled upon the Consult early and recognized them as the ultimate threat (what good is it to be superior to the world-born if there are no world-born left to measure against... ?!).

So I think that after studying the situation he elaborated a strategy to:

1) position himself where he could possibly influence the Consult (through their agents) - with the Fanim, i.e the Ceshaurim

2) force the Dunyein to send his son to him (the "botched" return to Ishual), calculating that Khellus would come to the same ... appreciation of the situation on the way as he did (and helping him through Cnaeur)

3) making it possible for a (foreseen) Holy War to happen - which could not happen without the support of the most powerful School in the 3 Seas (hence the unexplained attack on the Scarlet Spires was sure to drive them into accepting the foreseen Shrial's offer)

4) planting the seed for the subversion of said Holy War by Khellus - which would thus insure:

- the eventual discredit of the Thousand Temples as a source of moral authority (Maithenet bein a skin spy)

- the forging of the Inrithi horde into an army devoted to the Cause

Both serving with the goal of:

5) unifying the 3 Seas under one command

6) once all the above is accomplished *then* the Mandate would fall in line and with the Gnosis secure in one hand, the Psukha in the other, the *real* war will begin.

-----

Since I didn't know about more projected books I thought we'd see the conclusion with the last one.

Let us hope the author does not fall into Jordan's (or more and more it seems, Martin's) trap of thining the story to publish more books than necessary <!-- s:x --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mad.gif" alt=":x" title="Mad" /><!-- s:x -->



G. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 24 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Andrew, Peralogue

Jaw Doc - I think you are thinking of Mallahet - most powerful Cishaurim. If you have the trade paper back of TDTCB look at p. 152-4. If you don't have that version check out ch. 5. Mallahet is described as being extraordinarily powerful among the cishaurim, he is not native to Kian, his arms are scarred like Scylvendi and he speaks flawless Sheyic. So most people think Mallahet is Moengus - view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 25 November 2004 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Just read something that may be of relevance to the “thousand fold thought” (TDTCB, trade paperback, p 515, Chapter 17). It occurs at the first council of the great names at the emperor’s court when Kellhus appraises the other princes and leaders (i.e. Gothyelk, Saubon, Chepheramunni – masked on this occasion so he can’t be identified as a skin spy). Kellhus observes that individually each prince would be as easy to possess as any world born man, but concludes that in “their sum, they were incalculable. They were a labyrinth, a thousand thousand halls, and he had to pass through them”.

Of course I’m out by a couple of orders of magnitude, but is his possession of the holy war the means to move (to pass through) a mass of men with conflicting desires and emotions? I would have hoped that the thousand fold thought included pity and compassion, but if the passage quoted above foreshadows the TTT, then it is just another means to further Kellhus’ mission. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 27 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Sovin Nai, Site Administrator

Grallon- Aspect-Emperor is the name Scott has put forth for a second trilogy or dualogy. PoN should conclude in TTT, but may not, in fact will not, reach the Second Apocalypse. Scott has said he plans on working on something else in the interim. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 28 June 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Hackhius, Commoner

@saintjon, anor, and Erthaelion:

Was not the "swazond" on Cnaiur's neck, a swazond for his first true love, Serwe. Though he didn't kill her himself which is the standard for a new swazond, the one's who did kill her are not of the People. So, this swazond was the only way for him recognize all that Serwe would never do. A "swazond of love". view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 01 July 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by saintjon, Auditor

yup, got a chance to do a re-read finally and I agree 100%.

You guys see Kellhus gaining more and more power, I dunno as much as he makes temporal gains he seemed to be almost scrambling internally in some parts of TWP and then when he wept at the end, that whole Serwe experience totally kicked him out of his conitioning. I think the next book will have more of him learning the demands that world-born never learn to side-step. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 01 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Mithfânion, Didact

Good call Anor on catching that little quote from Achamian which say that the Holy War not so much failed as was transformed. This is but one of the reasons why it seems clear that with Kellhus taking the lead among the Inrtith and with Moenghus taking (or already being in) the lead of the Fanim, they will take over it's direction. Of course, how this plays out, what their aims are (or even if the aims of Kellhus and Moenghus coincide) remains to be seen. As does whether or not people like Conphas and Proyas will be seduced as well, and how the Emperor will react.

As for the identity of Mallahet en Maithanet.

Mallahet simply has to have some sort of tie to Moenghus. But I don't think that Moenghus still is Mallahet, or even if he ever was. In general I am terribly curious about what Moenghus will look like.

Maithanet: I doubt he is either Moenghus or, as I initially thought, a skin spy. His agenda is not clear and it may be that he is in league with Moenghus. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

Another possible clue to the Thousandfold Thought, and especially Kellhus's experience on the tree in Caraskand. Could it have anything to do with Satori, the state of enlightenment/awakening in Zen Buddhism, or some similar experience?

Am looking forward to some input on this! view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 04 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Mithfânion&quot;:3qr5jp3c
. . . and how the Emperor will react.[/quote:3qr5jp3c]

Well, there's some cause to suppose he will react badly (aggressively) and that it won't end well for him. There is a mention by Achamian, in one of his post-Holy War snippets, where he talks about the Emperor after his demise, so there is a clue as well on what we can expect for him. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 11 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Anonymous, Subdidact

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Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 13 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Mithfânion, Didact

When is it mentioned that Mallahet is Ketyai? I don't recall that. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 13 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Anonymous, Subdidact

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Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 14 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Anonymous, Subdidact

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Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 14 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Erekassos Knerceannis&quot;:xkp43nk7
Unless, of course, Moenghus has found a way to change the color of his skin....... [/quote:xkp43nk7]

Yes, it's called dye, and Moenghus has used the expedient beforehand when he escaped from the Scylvendi. I further think that it is very good odds that Maithanet is a skin spy. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 14 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Mithfânion, Didact

Erekassos

I'm still waiting for proof that it somewhere says it's Mallahet who's Ketyai and that he therefore can't be Moenghus. I know Maithanet is not Norsirai, but you were talking about Mallahet, remember? <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 26 September 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Anonymous, Subdidact

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Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 24 October 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by zarathustra, Peralogue

My reading is that Maithanet is Moenghus. This comes form not only the fact that he appears from the deep South but the nature of how fast he gains power. This is similar to the length of time Khellus takes from coming in as a complete unknown to assuming command of the Holy War. The descriptions of Maithanet point to his ability to inspire reverance through his presence and use of his voice. This is particularly illustrated by the way he handles Proyas.
It seems possible that Moenghus could have gained control of a faction within the Cishaurim before moving on. It would also explain how Maithanet knew the Cishaurim and the Scarlet Spires were at war. view post


Serious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... posted 03 November 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSerious TTT thoughts, predictions, ideas... by Spamoram, Candidate

I must disagree with Maithanet being Moenghus. Certainly, the scars, flawless sheyic, and his prominence amongst the Cishaurim would indicate that he is Mallahet.

It seems to me that Maithanet is most likely Moenghus' son. I mean, the man's been living outside of Ishual for 30ish years so it comes to reason that he has a another son.

This would also explain Maithanet's ability to find spies and his very quick rise to power (trained by Moenghus).

Now, as for why Moenghus would send a son to take over the thousand temples and then direct it in a Holy War against his own Cishaurim is beyond me. view post


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