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Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 15 October 2004 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

I noticed there were a lot of speculation about the identity of little-known characters such as Moënghus, Mallahet and Maithanet. Although both the "Moënghus = Mallahet = Maithanet" theory and the "Mainthanet belonging to the Consult" theory, were both very well-developped and plausible, I have a different explanation.

We know very little about Maithanet, save that he is a lone man that, for some reason, travelled all the way from Nilnamesh and then set out to conquer the Thousand Temples like a storm, and then declared a Holy War to reconquer Shimeh. The big question is, why declare this Holy War?

Maybe Maithanet is simply a Consult tool used to destroy the Cishaurim. But there are hints that in TWP that make it very hard to believe Maithanet is entirely evil (one being the part where he asks Proyas to aid Achamian).

I'd like to draw a parallel to Cnaiür here; before he crossed the path of Moënghus, he was simply the son of a chieftain. But after his disastrous encounter with Moënghus, he was utterly transformed into the murderous and deranged warrior we know.

What if something similar happened to Maithanet? Moënghus, for some reason, crosses Nilnamesh and decides to use a young Inirith adept, Maithanet, for his own purpose. After Moënghus leaves, Maithanet, like Cnaiür, sees past the Dûnyain deception and sets out to avenge himself. He quickly realizes, however, that Moënghus is heavily defended by the heaten Fanim.

Yet Maithanet has his own strenght. Like Cnaiür, he grows powerful because of hatred of Moënghus; only instead of gaining furious strenght and talent in combat, he affinates his skill at inspiring devotion and obedience in other men (probably inspired by the Dûnyain manipulation techniques displayed by Moënghus).

So what better way for him to avenge himself than by paying a visit to his Inirith brothers, using his newfound talent to become Shriah and asking them to destroy the heathen in Shimeh (and Moënghus with them)?

That doesn't rule out the possibility of a Consult link; the Consult might have proven a great ally for Maithanet because of their common will to see Shimeh stormed. But I think there's more to Maithanet than merely a Consult tool (or even skin-spy).

So there it is; sorry for the discouragingly long post and possible poor english. I'd very much like to hear for your comments, objections, assents... view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 03 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by RevCasy, Candidate

I think you have found a clever explanation for Maithanet's actions given the information we have so far. And you may very well be correct.

However, the problem remains. Why would Maithanet help Achamian? Achamian is a member of the Mandate. A group in opposition to the Consult. He is not neccessarily a strong ally of the Holy War. He only cares about preventing the Second Apocolypse. How does this serve Maithanet's goal if Maithanet is, as you suggest, seeking vengance on Moenghus?

Maybe Maithanet was indeed manipulated by Moenghus. Only, he has never seen through the manipulation as Cnaiur has. Maybe he is simply what Moenghus made him. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 03 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Epitaphs, Candidate

He could simply hate Moe as much as Cnaiur does, and is willing to go to any lengths to see this accomplished through his own hand.

Perhaps Maithanet's goal is not Shimeh. Perhaps he knows about the Consult(he can see the Mark, perhaps he can see Skin Spies?). Perhaps he did cross paths with Moe, and they together plotted a plan to unite the Three Seas to fight the Consult. Think about it.

No one in the Three Seas, other than the Mandate of course, belive in the Consult. If they were able to do everything in their plans behind the scenes, with the humans simply milling about, the Consult would dominate them before they ever had a chance to come together.

Of course, this is nearly ridiculous, as you are destroying both armies. But perhaps it's to be like the desert--a testing ground to wittle away the fat. But then again perhaps he just hates the Kianese and the Consult and wants the whole world to himself. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 05 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

All of this sounds credible, but I can't escape the feeling that Moenghus is really running the show. I think whether he is aware or not, Maithanet is doing Moenghus's bidding. How many people are Kelhus's flunkies without knowing it. How many know it and don't care.

They don't care because they can't see the level of manipulation. They internalize Kelhus's imperatives as their own desires. I think that when someone has been made to so something heinous, like Cnaiur, and becomes aware of the level of manipulation that made him want to do it, he grows enraged (and scared!).

But based on what's happened so far - Kelhus's transformation of man to prophet, forged in the fires of not yet fully consummated holy war - I feel like the object of this holy war (masterminded by Moenghus) is to forge his son into the prophet that can wield the Three Seas as the resource needed to fight the one true threat to the Dunyain father-son tag team - the Consult.

Because after all, it doesn't seem like the Consult knows how to play nice and share, and the Dunyain are not the easy meat of other mortals.

Forgive me if I've butchered the names, I don't have my book with me now... view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 05 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

As a reply to RevCasy's question : Why would Maithanet help Achamian?
Yes, that's the big question...My theory does provide an answer: whereas the Holy War serves as a means to destroy the political and military power of Moenghus, by conquering Fanim lands and destroying the army that protects Shimeh, there is still the problem of taking care of Moenghus himself. There are the Chorae bowmen, but it's likely many of them will be destroyed during the War, and anyway as we've seen in TWP, a cunning and powerful sorcerer can find ways to deal with Chorae's. And Moenghus is a VERY cunning and VERY powerful sorcerer. As far as Maithanet knows (supposing he really doesn't know about Khellus), Achamian, the most powerful sorcerer within the Holy War, is the only man with a real shot at Moenghus. This leaves the question of how he intends to convince Achamian to kill his friend's father, I'll admit.

Concerning a conspiracy between Moenghus and Maithaneth or a manipulation of the latter by the former : it does make a lot of sense that the Holy War serves as a ground for Khellus's rebirth as a prophet, though this also leaves the question of why Moenghus would want this. We know very little about the Dûnyain's profound motives, and about nothing about an exiled Dûnyain's motives ; why should he care about the Consult ? If anything, his actions have alerted the Consult about the Dûnyain and threaten their isolation, even their very survival. And if the goal is to fight the Consult, then a war bent of destroying the Cishaurim (the Consult's enemy) looks like a strange way to achieve that goal. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 06 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Mithfânion, Didact

And Moenghus is a VERY cunning and VERY powerful sorcerer

We know this because? view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 06 February 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Tattooed Hand, Auditor

Just the fact that Moenghus is Dunyain could account for the fact that he is cunning and powerful. We cannot assume that Moeghus is Mallahet, but we do know that he controls a faction of the Cishaurim. And, if he is a sorcerer, well, it's difficult to imagine the Dunyain being mediocre at anything... I guess it depends on the nature of the talent. Is it something you have and then improve at according to practice, or is the level of your talent set. How much depends on will... view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 13 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Brady, Candidate

Moenghus has lived in the big, wide world for 30 years now, but people only seem to look at how Moenghus would have effected and manipulated the things around him. What about viewing it from another angle? Kellhus has been away from the seclusion of Ishual for a period of roughly 2 years, and he is already changing. His Dunyain control is starting to slip. He is beginning to experience emotions for the people around him. Pity, for Cnauir. Love for Esmenet. Sorrow (possibly) and grief for Serwe.

Its only taken 2 years for the "Conditioning" to slip. Not totally, but enough that Kellhus no longer has complete mastery of his emotions. And Moenghus has been amongst these 'humans' for ten times and more as long as Kellhus has. Is Moenghus still an unfeeling, manipulative creature? I doubt it.

The emotional changes that Kellhus goes through is the reason (I think) that the Dunyain are fanatical isolationists. They know how much the world can corrupt thought and emotion, even for one of the Conditioned. A Dunyain at large in the world does not lose his awesome powers of manipulation, but he may start to lose his self mastery.

So, why would Moenghus set himself against the Consult? Because he cares about the world, and the people in it. He's spent thirty years in the world. It has affected him. He does not want to see it destroyed. So he sets himself, and his awesome power, directly in the path of the Apocalypse. The Consult know this, which is why they are so desperate to destroy the Cishaurim.

And that is why he has summoned his son. Moenghus knows that the Three Seas must be united against the Consult. But the religious divide between Inithri and Fanim is too great. There is to much hatred on both sides. He engineers the Holy War, an act which unites the Inithri factions and the Fanim factions (on opposite sides), but he can't control it. Just as Kellhus observed in TDTCB, the Holy War has too many leaders, too many people, too many variables involved to make predictions on it's outcome. How can Moenghus control and manipulate this massive, many-headed beast called Holy War?

Through his son. The father unites the Fanim. The son unites the Inithri. The men of the desert join the men of iron, under father and son, against the Consult.

Well, thats one theory at least <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> And it doesn't fully explain the presence of the Consult amongst the Holy War (unless they too are being manipulated by Moenghus into supporting the instrument of their own destruction) view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 14 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Mithfânion, Didact

Cool thought. It will be very interesting to see if it happens like that. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 14 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by RevCasy, Candidate

That is the best all-around explanation of Moenghus' motivation and plan that I have seen thus far. Good job Brady.

This theory would imply that Maithanet, who set the Holy War in motion to begin with, is either an informed ally or an unwilling tool of Moenghus (or some combination thereof). I don't think there is enough evidence, at this point, to decide which. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 15 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Brady, Candidate

I also wondered if Maithenet could be a Consult agent, since the Consult seemed to support the Holy War, and hoped to use it to destory the Cishaurim. Maithenet seems to have been the prime mover in launching the Holy War.

I don't favour the idea though. From the brief conversations we see between Sarcellus and the Synthese, it seems more like the Consult are hi-jacking the Holy War, rather than being the engineers of it. Which leaves Maithenet as the unknowing tool, or willing accomplice/disciple of Moenghus. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 16 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by Twayleph, Auditor

First of all Brady, I have to say it's a very good explanation indeed, simple and realistic. However I still have trouble believing that Moënghus would willingly trigger a war in which the Cishaurim would be slaughtered. If he's an enemy of the Consult, why would he want to see destroyed (or at least bleeded) an enemy of his enemy ?

Speaking of the Cishaurim : I wonder, has anyone made a theory on why the Consult wants to destroy the Cishaurim so badly ? Considering that, before Khellus, they weren't aware the Anasûrimbor lineage had survived, they couldn't possibly have known all about Moënghus ; at most, they knew him under wathever identity he's assumed in Earwa.

Do you think their manipulation of the Holy War is all about killing Moënghus, or the fact that the Consult can't see them as the Few - or maybe a deeper effect of Psukhe ? view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 16 March 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Twayleph&quot;:e5s2z6pq
Speaking of the Cishaurim : I wonder, has anyone made a theory on why the Consult wants to destroy the Cishaurim so badly ? Considering that, before Khellus, they weren't aware the Anasûrimbor lineage had survived, they couldn't possibly have known all about Moënghus ; at most, they knew him under wathever identity he's assumed in Earwa.

Do you think their manipulation of the Holy War is all about killing Moënghus, or the fact that the Consult can't see them as the Few - or maybe a deeper effect of Psukhe ?[/quote:e5s2z6pq]

I think the enmity may have started when the Cishaurim began eliminating the skin-spies. We know Kellhus has been able to identify them from the start, so we can assume that Moenghus could do the same. Having the skin-spies taken out, one by one, would be a severe blow to the Consult, especially if the trend spread throughout the Three Seas. We know Moenghus has trained his followers in the way of the Dunyain so they could unearth the skin-spies too.

However, this could be only part of the answer. From the dialogue between the synthese and the skin-spy it seems the Consult have great respect for Cishaurim sorcery. I'm positive the Psukhe is going to develop into the strongest form of sorcery (maybe with Moenghus's and Kellhus's help). What we know so far is that it is founded on a new metaphysics (a few hundred years old at most) and the lack of the onta makes it very significant, since it would presuppose some form of 'divine' sanction, if the Mark is absent. Also consider that it is already almost as formidable as the Anagogis which has been around for thousands of years. With minds such as Moenghus and Kellhus working on refining it it could become a very powerful weapon.

The Consult uses Gnostic sorcery. As long as all they had to fear was the Anagogis or the Gnosis of the few Mandate sorcerers all was fine. But the Psukhe is invisible to them, with who knows what advantages over the other metaphysics, and the Cishaurim are probably as big a school as the Scarlet Spires, and a powerful threat.

Also if the Cishaurim, through Moenghus, have certain knowledge of whom they are fighting, and if they have initiated skirmishes against the Consult, with positive results, this could have caused the Consult to use the kind of hammer the Holy War represents.

One of the small hints that the Cishaurim may have taken up the Mandate's fight is the thought Achamian has of some Cishaurim attacking him while he was in Shimeh. What if they were not attacking him but trying to communicate with him or take him to Moenghus? Could also explain the interest Maithanet has in Achamian, if he's in any way connected with Moenghus's plans.

Also as an aside on Achamian, I've been steadily coming to believe he could be either the reincarnation of Seswatha or some sort of disciple, one who could carry on his work (or if my theory on Seswatha being still alive in the Outside is correct, as his Chosen). If his role is to be more than Kellhus's teacher, then the Cishaurim contacting him, and Maithanet showing interest in him would not be so strange. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 27 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by stacius, Commoner

What if the previous Grandmaster of the Scarlet Spires was a skin spy? Could that be the reason the Cishaurum took him out?


But if that was the case, wouldn't it be just as easy for the Cishaurum to sent a mission to the Mandate with proof of the Consult and ask for help? view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 28 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

If we accept that Mallahet/Moenghus is indeed the "genius" behind the resistance to the now active Consult (and given Moenghus' history he might have come into direct contact with the Consult), it is likely that his faction dare not approach say the Mandate, or the Saik with the offer of alliance on the basis that all the Schools (and the 1000 temples) are riddled with Consult spies.

We know that this infestation is true for the Mandate and the 1000 temples (and also the NonMen!). A skin spy cannot masquerade as a sorceror, but he/(she?) certainly can masquerade as a functionary, a trusted aid - and this would compromise any approach made by Moenghus' faction to a third party. Moenghus' faction, probably drawing on Moenghus' past training, can probably see skin spies. The only individual they can approach is a man that can also see skin spies, and that is Kellhus. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 29 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Guest&quot;:2pe12ux5
Good point!!! Thanks for reminding me of that little "infiltration" fact.[/quote:2pe12ux5]

On the other hand Mallahet did make an approach to the Nansur emperor on behalf of the Fanim grandees, and I think Skeaös was even present at the meeting. It's possibly significant that Mallahet was not negotiating on behalf of the Cishaurim alone - he might have revealed too much of his intentions to the skin spies. view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 31 December 2005 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Guest&quot;:jcpqg71z
.......................................................................................................................
Here's something far more aggravating to chew on. Had the fourteen Cisharum on the Plains of Mengedda had a few bowmen at their backs when they were burning the Northmen (Galeoth, Tydonni and Thunyeri) to ash, they could have destroyed the entirety of that contingent before Proyas and the Conriyans made to it the battle. The only reason they were taken down was because of a few Shrial chorae-holders. A couple of arrows could have taken out that limited threat and the Holy War would have effectively been cut in half.

The southern contingents would have prevailed, of course, but only because the Scarlet Spires travelled with them. Think of how few they would be in number now after the Carathay![/quote:jcpqg71z]

You might be reading a bit too much into that episode. If a knight can afford to carry a priceless trinket, he can likely afford to wear the very best armour - of course to be effective in such a situation he has also got to persuade himself to be suicidal, which the Shrial knights did. As I recall from that battle the Cishaurim abandoned their usual tactics because they held their opponents' warcraft in contempt (their usual tactics were to screen the Cishaurim sorcerors). Actually after such a battle I had the picture of a low ranking Scarlet Schoolman going out on the field with a couple of slaves to locate all the trinkets his side and the losing side loosed (missile troops would collect all the spent arrows anyway). view post


Another Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) posted 04 January 2006 in The Warrior ProphetAnother Maithanet Theory (possible spoiler) by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Guest&quot;:3n1cn8gh
Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:3n1cn8gh
You might be reading a bit too much into that episode. If a knight can afford to carry a priceless trinket, he can likely afford to wear the very best armour - of course to be effective in such a situation he has also got to persuade himself to be suicidal, which the Shrial knights did. As I recall from that battle the Cishaurim abandoned their usual tactics because they held their opponents' warcraft in contempt (their usual tactics were to screen the Cishaurim sorcerors). Actually after such a battle I had the picture of a low ranking Scarlet Schoolman going out on the field with a couple of slaves to locate all the trinkets his side and the losing side loosed (missile troops would collect all the spent arrows anyway).[/quote:3n1cn8gh]

Ummm, I don't know. Trinkets are more a matter of inheritance than purchase. As you said, they're priceless (more or less). A soilder wouldn't be able to afford such a thing. Especially not the "young adept" that was mentioned. It in fact read that it was his "dead father's Chorae."

I say this to suggest that the armor could easily be crap regardless of one possessing a Chorae. What's more, the Kianene are extraordinary bowmen. A shot in the head/skull area wouldn't be that difficult unless the soilder constantly changed their trajectory; which of course is HIGHLY unlikely given the circumstance.

Also it seems unlikely that anyone would leave their trinket laying around after the battle. A warrior, given that he survived, would immediately go to retrieve his lost possession. Those things aren't exactly replacable.[/quote:3n1cn8gh]

As far as I can reasonably surmise about the use of chorae on battlefields, a caste noble probably doles out a few chorae to the expert archers in his company while keeping one for himself (cf Xinemus had 3 chorae), this is then organized into a troop to take out enemy sorcerors. But if you lose the battle the victor takes possession of the field and all the spent chorae. These would be fairly easy to sniff out by a low ranking sorceror (low ranking because it would probably be a dirty and dangerous job) who would direct a couple of helpers to collect the things he cannot handle himself. Undoubtedly, the chorae are marked so that they return (eventually) to the original owners. Enemy chorae found on the battlefield are possibly legitimate spoils, and anyway I suspect there is a flourishing black market in them (an impoverished noble family would also sell such a family heirloom to get capital - if they are "priceless" someone would soon set a value on them). When the Nansur won the battle against the Scylvendi, they must have "harvested/liberated" scores of Chorae, though they didn't get the one held by Cnaiür. view post


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