Three Seas Forum

the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

I've been trying to figure out what this name means by looking at other Nonmen names for things at the back of TTT. The only places where the names are somewhat similar are under Ishterebinth (Exalted Stronghold) where it says it was also called Ishoriol (Exalted Hall). My guess is that -iol means hall (or perhaps riol does) because the translation exalted is shared by them as well as Ishual( meaning Exalted Grotto) but they only match on the -ish prefix.
The other parts are -In and -car which are found under Incu-Holoinas( Ark-of-the-skies) and Inchoroi (People of emptiness) guessing that -in means of.
The only thing that had -car in it was Cara-Sincurimoi (Angel of Endless Hunger) what the Nonmen called the No-God. Just going by the way it looks, I'm guessing Cara means Angel and Sincurimoi means endless hunger. Although there is an -in there which may be the of part.
So put them together and you get Angel of the Hall which doesn't seem to mean anything but Cil-Aujas was called the Dark Halls and Incariol (who really seems like the Nonman Kellhus meets at the end of the prologue of The Darkness that Comes Before, his mannerisms are similar, the whole rolling his head on the pivot of his chin thing they share) knew the ruler of Cil-Aujas (can't remember his name but he talked to the ghost before it possessed him and they had a short conversation where they seemed to talk of damnation, the King asks how could they forget and Incariol says he never did, which seems that his sympathies lie with the Consult if he isn't already a member) and finally some of the scenes where Akka is reliving Seswatha's torment under Mekeritrig, Seswatha says that Mekeritrig was once one of the brightest, or something similar, before his fall which made me think of Lucifer being the brightest angel before his fall which brought me back to the translation (not very good I know, I'm a biologist not a linguist) of Angel of the Hall.
Am I way off track here? Sometimes R. Scott Bakker makes things really obvious (thinking of the whole Mallahet=Moenghus thing which was really obvious, so much so that I dismissed it until TTT.) so perhaps he is giving us a few little clues that seem fairly obvious but easily dismissed if we think too hard about it. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Curethan, Didact

Akka would have recognized him if he were Mekeretig - he knows most of the nonmen active during the first apocolypse from Seswatha's dreams. There is a passage where he wonder's at Incariol's indentity saying that he should know one of his abilities. Also recall that the nonman from the prologue (probably Mekertig) wore a cloak made of the faces of worthy foes to help him remember them - I would think this would be a habit that endures. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Yeah but Mimara and Akka have a conversation about how all Nonmen look alike and the only way he knew the statue was that the name was on it. He mentions that they look different to each other but not to humans. I think Akka also wondered why he didn't know the name and not the face of Incariol. As to the reason why Incariol, if he is the same as Kellhus' opponent, gave up his skin cloak perhaps the Consult asked him to keep an eye out on Achamian because they know Achamian knows something about Kellhus and the Dunyain and the only way to get the information is to follow him because torture is useless. Who needs a skin spy when you have a Nonman spy. Also, having a very powerful Nonman sorceror is a fairly simple way to make any Sranc encounters look worse than they are because Incariol could destroy them if he uses his full abilities. So what would look like a fair attempt at killing the travelers isn't really. I'm sure Akka and Incariol could destroy any wayward Sranc tribes not under the Consult's immediate control. The rest they can have ignore the group as it makes its way to Sauglish. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by coobek, Candidate

There is a post already trying to decipher the name Incariol. I really like what it suggests at the end.

Here:

<!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&amp;t=39382">viewtopic.php?f=43&amp;t=39382</a><!-- l --> view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Thorsten, Candidate

Interesting question... Since I have a great interest in linguistics, let me drop a few comments:

I've been trying to figure out what this name means by looking at other Nonmen names for things at the back of TTT. The only places where the names are somewhat similar are under Ishterebinth (Exalted Stronghold) where it says it was also called Ishoriol (Exalted Hall). My guess is that -iol means hall (or perhaps riol does) because the translation exalted is shared by them as well as Ishual( meaning Exalted Grotto) but they only match on the -ish prefix.


Yes, they all seem to match with ish- '*exalted'. But when you drop this phoneme, what is left is #terebinth '*stronghold', #ual '*grotto' and #oriol '*hall' - why should this shorten to ?riol/iol, except that you need it to fit? <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

The other parts are -In and -car


We don't know that - we have no clue where the boundaries are, you cold have Inca-riol where #inca is related with incu from the ark for example, you could have In-cari-ol and so on - one would need to get a bit more into the structure of the language.


which are found under Incu-Holoinas( Ark-of-the-skies) and Inchoroi (People of emptiness) guessing that -in means of.


Almost certainly in does not mean 'of' - you assume that there needs to be a translation of 'of' because the structure is like in English, but it could be an inflecting language, e.g. *inca '*sky' #incu '*of [the] sky', or it could be literally a loose compound 'sky-ark'. Nonmen expressions never stuck me as using prepositions - they tend to be short in every language because they appear so often, whereas languages which employ typically long words and names tend to be case languages.

The only thing that had -car in it was Cara-Sincurimoi (Angel of Endless Hunger) what the Nonmen called the No-God. Just going by the way it looks, I'm guessing Cara means Angel and Sincurimoi means endless hunger. Although there is an -in there which may be the of part.


Unlikely - consider that incu seems to be the sky part, because a) it seems to share a root with incho- from the Inchoroi and 'emptiness, sky, space' are not unrelated, so if the first element of one compound translates the second of the English one, why should the word order in this compound be different and b) -moi actually is seen to act as a personal ending, cf. Cu'jara Cinmoi, so Sincurimoi is more likely to be a person/ a sort of agent, i.e. rather the 'angel' than the 'hunger'.

As I said, it's a neat problem, and one would have to look a bit more into the language structure to figure something out. I'll have a look <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Thanks for the replies. I thought my translation was a little too easy and as I've just begun looking into linguistics for fun (still trying to find a good book to start with) I figured I'd just throw it out there to see what others might say.

I looked for the other page (because I remember there being one) but couldn't find it. Mainly because I haven't had the internet regularly and have had to rely on school and libraries for access rather than my own so I didn't come here often enough to sign up until recently.

I await your comments Thorsten and others. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 13 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Thorsten, Candidate

There is not as much material on Ihrimsû as one would have liked, but at least a few conclusions can be drawn, and a few speculations can be formulated.

1) It seems that the structure of Ihrimsû is such that the qualifier consistently precedes the qualified. For this, the following evidence is available:

a) In Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556), Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556), Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556) and Ishroi 'exalted ones' (TT:555) the element ish- must mean 'exalted' and always comes in front. From the last word, one can also infer #roi '[a] people'.

b) This appears also in Halaroi 'men' (TT:521), Inchoroi 'people of emptiness' (TT:522) and Cûnuroi 'nonmen' (TT:523). Inchoroi must thus literally be '[of]-emptiness-people'. This is in fact confirmed, because we get the etymology of the other two words in an older form of the language as ji cûnu roi 'the People of Dawn' (TT:581) and j'ala roi 'the People of Summer' (ibid). Here, j(i) is probably the article 'the', but just possibly an inflection marker, but cûnu must be '[of] dawn' and ala '[of] summer', so literally we have 'the [of]-dawn-people' and 'the [of]-summer-people.

c) In Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521), Holoinas must mean 'ark' because in TT:524 it is mentioned that Nonmen kept a watch on the Holoinas - it is unlikely that they kept looking at the sky all the time. So, literally this must mean 'of-the-skies-ark'.

d) auja-gilcûnni is more or less translates as 'ground tongue' in DB:588 - and from the context, the latter must mean 'tongue' - so again the qualifier auja 'base-, ground-' comes in front.

2) It would seem that Ihrimsû is a case language, although the inflection pattern is impossible to guess. This conclusion is mainly based on the name Sin'niroiha 'First among Peoples' (TT:522) in which the element roi identified as 'people' is found. The name may therefore be decomposed as #sin '*first' and #niroiha 'among peoples' . This is a plural form inflected for a partitive case, so either ni- is plural and -ha the partitive, or vice versa. From the comparison of 'Cûno-Inchoroi wars' with Cûnuroi as standalone form, I would tend to suspect that the ending -ha is the plural and ni- has the meaning 'among', but that's essentialy conjecture.

3) The change from j'ala roi to Halaroi clearly indicates that sound shifts occur in the language development - the same element may therefore appear in slightly different guise in different words.

Now to some more speculative ideas:

4) In comparing Isûphiryas 'great pit of years' (DB:584) , Min-Uroikas 'Pit of Obscenities' (TT:528) one can try to identify the element 'pit'. This must come last (see 1) above) - so it can only be (y)as (I think it's unlikely that Isûphiry is compatible with Ihrimsû phonology, therefore I tend to break the word as Isûphir 'great-of-years' and yas 'pit'. Min-Uroikas would then be derived from a former *Min-Uroikyas with a shift in phonology. #Min-Uroik(?) with possibly an omitted ending then must mean '[of] obscenities' - presumably it is a compound word '?obscene things' or so. The question remains, if there is a genitive qualifier and an adjective, which one would come first? I tend to think that the adjective would come first, because there is a tantalizing parallel between ish- 'exalted' and #is- '*great' and incû '[of] skies' and incho- '[of] emptiness' - it could be that an aspiration of an element changes its emphasis and shade of meaning slightly. Accoring to that idea, I'd break Isûphiryas as is- 'great' ûphir 'of years' yas 'pit'. This actually goes nicely with #Aujas from the name Cil-Aujas - this is evidently related to auja 'ground', so I'd suspect the development *Aujayas &gt; Aujas 'ground-pit'.

If all that is not too far off the track, I'd put my money in for Incariol as being composed from Inca-oriol 'hall of the sky'.

Anyway - I found the following Nonman words, phrases and names which offer useful information:

auja-gilcûnni 'ground-tongue' (DB:588)
Anyasiri 'tongueless howlers' (TT:494)
Aghurzoi 'Cut Tongue' (TT:486)
Cincûl'hisa 'gasp of many reeds' (DB:589)
Isûphriyas 'great pit of years' (DB:584)
Cara-Sincurimoi 'Angel of Endless Hunger' (TT:509)
elju 'book' (TT:534)
Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521)
Halroi 'Men' (TT:521)
Inchoroi 'People of Emptiness' (TT:522)
Ishroi 'Exalted Ones' (TT:555)
Sin'niroiha 'First among Peoples' (TT:522)
Cûnuroi 'Nonmen' (TT:523)
Siörgil 'Shining Death' (TT:524)
Inniür-Shigogli 'Black Furnace Plain' (TT:526)
Ciögli '?Mountain' (TT:527)
Min-Uroikas 'Pit of Obscenities' (TT:528)
Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556)
Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556)
Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556)
Nasamorgas 'Death of Birth' (TT:582)

There are significantly more names, but for the most part they remain untranslated.

Finally there are the two phrases spoken in the first encounter of Kellhus with a Nonman:

Kaz'inirishka dazu daka gurankas (DB:26)
ka'cûnuroi souk ki'elju, souk hus'jihla (DB:28)

If anyone comes across other translated bits, please let me know! view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 15 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Fascinating reading Thorsten. I think you are on the right track. So if Incariol is from ' hall of the sky ', are there any references to where Mekeritrig (who seems likely to be Incariol, IMHO) is from? Do you the the ' hall of the sky ' is in any way a reference to the ' ark of the sky ' ?

On a similar note, does anyone else think Kellhus may have translated Auja-Gilcunni (the lost ground tongue of the nonmen)? I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile but there seemed to be hints in the books that it hadn't been translated...yet. Would it give any advantage? I'm not too sure about the metaphysics of sorcery and language. I doubt Kellhus would have had much trouble translating it since he knew of at least three Nonman mansions where he might find sources and given his ease with languages.

One last thing, during Kellhus' encounter with the Nonman at the beginning of Darkness, the Nonman says &quot; I see that you are a student, knowledge is power eh?&quot; when Kellhus merely looks at him without fear or expression. At first this didn't mean much to me but as I was perusing the glossary I found this:
&quot; Following its founding in 684 by Sos-Pranimura ( the greatest student of Gin' yursis) the school of Mangaecca pursued a predatory ethos, regarding knowledge as the embodiment of power.&quot;
Did the Nonman think Kellhus was somehow connected to the Mangaecca? Do the Dunyain have roots connected to the Mangaecca? Perhaps they are an offshoot of some early (pre-Consult) Mangaecca thinkers? Any other ideas what this little exchange meant? view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 25 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by nonman_erratic, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Thorsten&quot;:923wiurl


a) In Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556), Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556), Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556) and Ishroi 'exalted ones' (TT:555) the element ish- must mean 'exalted' and always comes in front. From the last word, one can also infer #roi '[a] people'.

b) This appears also in Halaroi 'men' (TT:521), Inchoroi 'people of emptiness' (TT:522) and Cûnuroi 'nonmen' (TT:523). Inchoroi must thus literally be '[of]-emptiness-people'. This is in fact confirmed, because we get the etymology of the other two words in an older form of the language as ji cûnu roi 'the People of Dawn' (TT:581) and j'ala roi 'the People of Summer' (ibid). Here, j(i) is probably the article 'the', but just possibly an inflection marker, but cûnu must be '[of] dawn' and ala '[of] summer', so literally we have 'the [of]-dawn-people' and 'the [of]-summer-people.

c) In Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521), Holoinas must mean 'ark' because in TT:524 it is mentioned that Nonmen kept a watch on the Holoinas - it is unlikely that they kept looking at the sky all the time. So, literally this must mean 'of-the-skies-ark'.

3) The change from j'ala roi to Halaroi clearly indicates that sound shifts occur in the language development - the same element may therefore appear in slightly different guise in different words.

If all that is not too far off the track, I'd put my money in for Incariol as being composed from Inca-oriol 'hall of the sky'.

Anyway - I found the following Nonman words, phrases and names which offer useful information:


Siörgil 'Shining Death' (TT:524)
Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556)

There are significantly more names, but for the most part they remain untranslated.

If anyone comes across other translated bits, please let me know![/quote:923wiurl]

Great post.

I am going to speculate that Siöl = Shining Hall. (Siö- or Siör- = Shining, while -iöl = hall). Not wanting to sound silly with Siöliöl/Siörliöl, the nonmen dropped the double-double. Like Boutros Boutros Ghali should've done.

I posted previously on the etymology behind Incariol... I had a similar sort of take on it... I follow your logic though am not sure on the &quot;Inc- / Incu-&quot; component. How do you reconcile Inchoroi with Incu-Holoinas? Or do you think the addition of the -h vs the -u to 'Inc' changes the meaning drastically? We both agree that -roi = people and -iöl = &quot;Hall/Stronghold&quot;... And that the Inchoroi were named 'people of emptiness'... From there I postulated that Incariol equated to something along the lines of &quot;Empty Hall/Stronghold&quot;... Which I stretched to &quot;Soul-less One&quot;...

If one stretches your translation a little, you could perhaps go from &quot;Hall of the Sky,&quot; (of-the-skies-stronghold) to something along the lines of, &quot;Stronghold of the Heavens/ Heavenly Stronghold&quot;...

So we could have Incariol as either a Heavenly Body, or a Soulless Erratic... Not so far off of where I think his character could go... Either a dark saviour, or an erratic waiting for a trauma. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 27 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by ThePrinceofNothing, Candidate

Why wouldn't Akka pick up on the etymology of Cleric's name? You'd think that it would at least give him cause for consideration.

EDIT: Didn't see Curethan's post, second from the top, which I'm in agreement with. I find it hard to believe that, if Incariol is indeed Mekeritrig (or something other member of the Inchoroi), Achamian would allow such a fact to go unnoticed. The etymology and Seswatha's memories should provide him with enough information to deduct who Incariol is. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 27 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Does Achamian speak Ihrimsu? I thought he spoke a different version for sorcery. Perhaps he doesn't know the etymology of Ihrimsu or Bakker just doesn't want him to tell us yet. Sometimes his hints are fairly obvious though, I mean come on Mallahet = Moenghus? Who didn't see that coming? All the hints were there.

I don't know if Incariol is Mekeritrig (or whether Mekeritrig is the one whom Kellhus meets) but it seems like a nice little circle. Plus, the conversation between Incariol and the Ghost under the Mountain seemed to hint that Incariol knew his people were damned and that he didn't forget like the rest of them. I wonder if either one Mekeritrig, Incariol, and the unknown one Kellhus meets were part of the group that slaughtered the humans near the ruins of Myclai at the end of TWP? view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 28 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Curethan, Didact

Mekertrig is definitely the nonman Kellhus meets; Scott let that one slip here.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:2eqitpk3

I can recap and clarify the info that's been given so far: the Nonmen are an ancient race, the 'original people' of Earwa, who are nearly immortal, and who fought both for and against the No-God during the Apocalypse. They are slowly going insane: their minds can only hold roughly four or five human lifetimes of experiences, and as the centuries pass the traumatic experiences they suffer crowd out their other memories, until now, almost all Nonmen remember only the pain and loss in their lives. And some, like the Nonman (Mekertrig) that Kellhus meets in the Prologue, have taken to creating traumatic experiences just so they can have something to remember...[/quote:2eqitpk3]

I am of the opinion that nonmen look alike in a similar way that all chinese &quot;look alike&quot; but moreso. Meaning that men would focus on their physical divergences that are consistent between individuals rather than on the differences between said individuals, thus making them all appear alike. A man who had learned from and befriended many different non-men (i.e. Seswatha) would be expected to be able to reliably differentiate between them.

If nonmen were effectively clones of each other I feel that Scott would have rendered their society and culture much differently.

There was another little nugget of nonman info in the thread with the above quote in that I just had to repost it here even though it is off-topic.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:2eqitpk3

Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.
[/quote:2eqitpk3]

I jusrt love the nonmen - so cool. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 30 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;ThePrinceofNothing&quot;:3ulr43ra
Why wouldn't Akka pick up on the etymology of Cleric's name? You'd think that it would at least give him cause for consideration.

EDIT: Didn't see Curethan's post, second from the top, which I'm in agreement with. I find it hard to believe that, if Incariol is indeed Mekeritrig (or something other member of the Inchoroi), Achamian would allow such a fact to go unnoticed. The etymology and Seswatha's memories should provide him with enough information to deduct who Incariol is.[/quote:3ulr43ra]

I think that's the point. Achamian's internal monologue insists that he should know Incariol's identity. Incariol is a relic, and his martial and sorcerous prowess bespeak a famous &quot;Name&quot;. I guess A. will find out soon enough. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Supersword, Commoner

Just a couple of potential refining points. But before that, I'm impressed that this is what has been come up with thus far. Very impressive.

First off, in figuring out the syllables between Nonman words, so far as I can tell is that the only difference between Nonman speech patterns and Human speech patterns would be caused by the fused teeth of the former. Otherwise, they still speak via sound vibrations, which leads me to believe that their syllables would constitute much the same length and shape as Humans'. Therefore, it is my belief that the original thought on in-ca-riol or inc-a-riol present more accurate samples.

Secondly, as per Achamian, it is quite possible that Seswatha came into contact with Incariol, but it wasn't part of his memories that the Mandate see every night. Instead, I believe that Achamian is just getting through the surface of the 'secondary' dreams of Seswatha's memories. I believe it is possible that Achamian will find evidence of Incariol somewhere in these 'new' dreams. After all, Achamian is now the chief historian of the First Apocalypse, for all intents and purposes. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Jerako, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Supersword&quot;:2igzo4sx
First off, in figuring out the syllables between Nonman words, so far as I can tell is that the only difference between Nonman speech patterns and Human speech patterns would be caused by the fused teeth of the former. Otherwise, they still speak via sound vibrations, which leads me to believe that their syllables would constitute much the same length and shape as Humans'. Therefore, it is my belief that the original thought on in-ca-riol or inc-a-riol present more accurate samples.[/quote:2igzo4sx]

Yes, their physical organs for speaking would be very similar, but even within a single species, there are many different cultural modes of thought, and they're expressed quite differently. As has been stated before, Ihrimsu appears to be an inflective language. In grammar, inflection or inflexion is the way language handles grammatical relations and relational categories such as tense, mood, voice, aspect (conjugation only), person, number (conjugation and declension), gender, case (declension only). Many words, such as prepositions, are eliminated, because the language handles that a different way. So it can't be translated with 100% efficiency, and assumptions based on our native tongue about it might not be accurate.

Scott is obviously a student of archaic languages, I wouldn't be surprised if Ihrimsu has much grammar that has been influenced by early Indo-European languages, such as Latin or Ancient Greek. I wouldn't be surprised if a study of those languages would reveal some clues about Ihrimsu. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Thorsten, Candidate

@Rhadamanth:

So if Incariol is from ' hall of the sky ', are there any references to where Mekeritrig (who seems likely to be Incariol, IMHO) is from? Do you the the ' hall of the sky ' is in any way a reference to the ' ark of the sky ' ?


The translated Ihrimsû names are descriptions of the main theme of the life of the person they refer to. Clearly a name like Sin'niroiha 'First among Peoples' (TT:522) cannot be a birth name, so there must be a costom to adopt names later, perhaps a bit similar to pharaonic Egypt. I don't think that there is any reference to an origin in the name.

On a similar note, does anyone else think Kellhus may have translated Auja-Gilcunni (the lost ground tongue of the nonmen)?


I do not think there is any reason to assume that.

@ nonman_erratic:

I follow your logic though am not sure on the &quot;Inc- / Incu-&quot; component. How do you reconcile Inchoroi with Incu-Holoinas? Or do you think the addition of the -h vs the -u to 'Inc' changes the meaning drastically?


I think that aspiration of a consonant might correspond to a more abstract meaning of an element, so is 'great' ish 'exalted' and inc 'sky' inch 'empty'. Admittedly that is a wild stab in the dark, but it does not influence my conclusions on the etymology of Incariol since incu is an attested an translated element, so we know that it exists and do not have to use theories to deduce it.

From there I postulated that Incariol equated to something along the lines of &quot;Empty Hall/Stronghold&quot;... Which I stretched to &quot;Soul-less One&quot;...


To be blunt, that may be guided by your idea of what Incariol is like (and presumably only works with an adopted name by the way), but it is not supported by the linguistic side, inc- does not mean 'empty', inch(o) does.

Personally, I'm not interested in stretching translations - it reveals a lot about your expectations for the character, but not necessarily about what Bakker meant him to be like, or how he chose the name. Thus, I'll leave this field of investigation to someone else <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

@Rhadamanth:

Does Achamian speak Ihrimsu?


No, it is explained clearly that he does not and that sorcery uses a different stage of the language.

@Supersword:

First off, in figuring out the syllables between Nonman words, so far as I can tell is that the only difference between Nonman speech patterns and Human speech patterns would be caused by the fused teeth of the former. Otherwise, they still speak via sound vibrations, which leads me to believe that their syllables would constitute much the same length and shape as Humans'. Therefore, it is my belief that the original thought on in-ca-riol or inc-a-riol present more accurate samples.


In analyzing compounds, the syllable structure is not relevant - you want to track the units that carry meaning. 'motorway' is decomposed in three syllables as 'mo-tor-way', but if you ask for meaning, you find the two elements 'motor' and 'way'. An element of many syllables may nevertheless carry only a single meaning. In studying real-world languages, you find rather extreme examples. So you are arguing more or less based on your taste how you think it should be (which is okay in a sense), but it has not really much to do with the sound producing apparatus.

@ Jerako:

Scott is obviously a student of archaic languages, I wouldn't be surprised if Ihrimsu has much grammar that has been influenced by early Indo-European languages, such as Latin or Ancient Greek.


While much of the nomenclature of sorcery is blatantly based on Ancient Greek (as I outlined elsewhere), I cannot see that Ihrimsû would be. If there are any connections beyond chance similarity, they continue to escape me. I also think that such speculations are a bit premature - one would have to know more of the inflection pattern to see if there is a similar language elsewhere. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 28 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Madness, Peralogue

I wish I retained the time and energy you all do to decipher Cu'jara Cinmoi's epic. I devoted much time to these endeavors when I first realized that The Prince of Nothing wasn't the complete work but since have moved on to just appreciating the works as they come. The human commentary is literally endless. My respect for Mr. Bakker's mind is endless.

Perhaps, this will be my slow return to posting on these boards. We shall see. I'm nearly always incited to write when reading the conceit with which most of you post your &quot;answers.&quot;

Two things to add to your commentary:

Though I doubt that Cleric himself is one, remember that Aurang admitted that the Consult created Nonmen skin-spies. As well, there is almost certainly a skin-spy among the Skin Eaters. Though, I personally disagree that it is Sarl as I doubt a skin-spy's persona would have been reduced to Sarl's state as they near the exit of Cil-Aujas.

Secondly, again, I remember when The Thousandfold Thought was yet to be released and it was definitively a controversy whether Mallahet was indeed Moenghus. I think it wise to adjust your perspectives and realize that though it is an amusing exercise in cognition to try and anticipate Cu'jara Cinmoi, it is extremely doubtful, and conceited of you, to think that you have done so. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 28 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Jerako, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:3lkahfh1
...remember that Aurang admitted that the Consult created Nonmen skin-spies.[/quote:3lkahfh1]

Where did this occur? I don't remember him saying anything of the sort. It would revise my assumptions about a few things were this true. I was under the impression that skin-spies were invented ca. 3800 YotT, when the Consult &quot;disappeared&quot; from the three-seas. &quot;A new artifact of the Old Science,&quot; I think Achamian said. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 28 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by lfex, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Jerako&quot;:37n8n7cf
Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:37n8n7cf
...remember that Aurang admitted that the Consult created Nonmen skin-spies.[/quote:37n8n7cf]

Where did this occur? I don't remember him saying anything of the sort. It would revise my assumptions about a few things were this true. I was under the impression that skin-spies were invented ca. 3800 YotT, when the Consult &quot;disappeared&quot; from the three-seas. &quot;A new artifact of the Old Science,&quot; I think Achamian said.[/quote:37n8n7cf]


Aurang does mention that the Consult has spies in Ishterebinth, but I always assumed they are Non-Men secretly working for them. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 29 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by anor277, Didact

The Consult agents in Ishterebinth could also be skin spies posing as human slaves. Mind you, the idea that a skin spy could pose as a non-man is not inconceivable; no doubt it would be much more difficult for a skin spy to waylay a non-man, turn him off, and then assume a millenia-old identity, than to do the same with a human. Skin spies were able to replace humans with contemptuous ease (witness Cnaiűr when freed by skin spies from the Nansur, &quot;Is it always this easy?&quot;). view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 11 February 2010 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Nerdanel, Peralogue

One possible way to ravel Incariol is as Inc-cara-iol where &quot;-iol&quot; is not &quot;hall&quot; but some sort of suffix commonly found in mansion names. (&quot;Or&quot; or &quot;ori&quot; would be hall.) Of?

Perhaps Incariol means &quot;Of Sky/Heaven/Emptiness Angel&quot; or something to that effect, but Achamian isn't suspicious because the name is vague enough that it could refer to a lot of things. (My guess is that it refers to serving the No-God.) view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown