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Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Okay, so I am beginning to wonder if the Dunyain might have a hand in the greater events of Earwa.
Everything is conditioned is it not? Sending out Kellhus to kill Moenghus would clearly have implications that I am sure the Dunyain had to have thought about.
Why send out Kellhus to kill Moenghus, in a sense they were just replacing the threat with another threat, no? I think the Pragma's and the Dunyain are exerting influence from behind their walls of Ishual. What do you guys think?
By sending Kellhus into the world, the Dunyain had to know that Kellhus would make an impact on the world. I don't think that Kellhus will be able to bring down the Consult and the Inchoroi without more help, and I think the Dunyain will have a larger part in the later books.

Any thoughts on this? view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by srancchieftan, Candidate

I think that presently the dunyain have no knowldge of the consult, and the outside world. I dont think that they have sent any dunyain out into the world besides Kellhus. I think that they dont care about whats going on out there and only wish to remain hidden. This hypothesis could change in the future, I only believe it because throughout the four novels we havent seen any other dunyain and we have seen no indications that the Dunyain are involved in outside events. Remember that Meonghis was the first dunyain to learn about the apocolypse and the consult, the dunyain didnt know about any of this. We have know reason to beleive that Meonghis or Kellhus have told the dunyain about the consult. We definitelt know that Kellhus fears that the dunyain would side with the consult if they knew about their mission, after all thats why he killed Meonghis. So we know that Kellhus hasnt told the Dunyain about the consult. It seems pretty clear to me that Kellhus has gone rogue and is no longer working with the dunyain.

It is possible that I am wrong and so am not going to rule it out that the dunyain are out there, I just havent seen anything to make me believe otherwise, so far. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

It's hard to predict of course. It's entirely conceivable that the Dunyain play no further part in the novels. As you say, the Dunyain no doubt considered the risk inherent in despatching Kellhus to the outside world. But Kellhus mission as an assassin was a sort of zero-sum game as regards the Dunyain. That is Moenghus had threatened Ishual's isolation (by sending the dreams that affected more than one Dunyain); Moenghus "demanded" that the Dunyain send his son. The Dunyain (apparently anxious to preserve their isolation) did indeed comply and sent Moenghus his son, but Kellhus was apparently sent as an assassin. Problem solved for the Dunyain? Perhaps, of course the Dunyain subsequently turned off all of the other individuals within Ishual capable of receiving Moenghus' dreams (i.e. all of them potential sorcerors). This may leave them uniquely vulnerable to the Consult or Kellhus or even dotardly Achamian, should any of these parties reach Ishual.

There are plots within plots within plots here, and I certainly can't untangle them. I do think, however, that the one over-riding concern of the Dunyain is to preserve their isolation and to keep the outside world at a far remove. On the other hand, maybe Kellhus himself wants to keep away from Ishual (and from nearby Atrithau) in order to keep the story he told about himself straight. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Athjeari, Peralogue

Is it not true that Kellhus has been totally conditioned his entire life? Who is conditioning him though? Who is making the decisions for the Dunyain (or who is in control, leading, or dominating them)? How is having Kellhus running around in Earwa any less dangerous to their seclusion than it was when Moenghus was alive?
Moenghus was sent out to see if a Sranc party that got too close to Ishual was aware of them. What if this was the Dunyains way to begin their interaction with Earwa on a larger scale? Dunyain are prepared to condition themselves over 2000 years, it seems perfectly plausible that they would take lifetimes to effectively engage society.

Could it not be argued that the Dunyain know of the Consult, or at least the first Apocalypse? Were the Dunyain not refugees from the first Apocalypse, and we know that this information was taught to Kellhus because he interrupts his Pragma during the training exercise to control the Legion by saying as much.

Dunyain logic seems so funny to me because they are taught to dominate. What happens within Ishual where everyone would be Dunyain and trying to dominate circumstance?
In my opinion the Dunyain have to play a larger role within the series; I would be sorely disappointed if they didn't. I thought I remember reading somewhere that Bakker said more Dunyain would be involved in the later installments, but if I am wrong someone please correct me. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Curethan, Didact

Interesting ideas. I have speculated similarly on this in the TTT sub-forum quite some time ago.

The idea that the dunyain are ignorant of the world beyond ishual is tied what we know of them, which comes almost exclusively from what Kellhus reminisces. They took pains to remove all sorcerous references from the retreat when they first arrived, to prepare conditioned ground for those that would be trained. Personally, I think that only the majority of dunyain are subjected to such ignorance. Obviously there are levels of initiations and secret knowledge - levels to which Kellhus and even Moenghus were not privy. The pragmas, and any ultimate "leader" beyond them would be the soul that chooses the dunyain's path.

From this it seems resonable to assume (for the purposes of speculation) the possibilty that the dunyain may idea have some machinations relating to the 2nd apocolypse, even if it only included their own survival.

Consider the type of sure, multifaceted and precise actions that Kellhus and Moenghus make to master circumstance. And recall the dunyain leaders' words upon discovering the last Anasurimbor when they reached Ishual in the PoN prologue. "A fortuitous correspondence of cause."

Now. Why was Moenghus, father of the heir to the Anasurimbor, exiled into the three seas? Because sranc had come to close to Ishual.

Do you think the pragma/s knew something Moenghus and Kellhus don't?

Anyway, I was intrigued greatly by Akka's new dreams of Seswatha. It seems that the only people who knew Ishual's location were Seswatha and the king...
It seems strange to me that the dreams don't seem to include Seswatha's death.
*Draws a line from Seswatha to Ishual and to the dunyain.*

Heh, just my 2cents.

PS I'm sure Baker talked about more dunyain, including a female dunyain too? I can't recall clearly. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 04 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Mithfânion, Didact

Anor

It's entirely conceivable that the Dunyain play no further part in the novels


I don't think that's likely at all, given the current plotlines. Before we might just have speculated that Aspect Emperor and the books afterward would perhaps reveal to us in full, the Dunyain. Now that we have seen TJE, we know that we will most likley meet them.

Athjeari

Who is making the decisions for the Dunyain (or who is in control, leading, or dominating them)? How is having Kellhus running around in Earwa any less dangerous to their seclusion than it was when Moenghus was alive?


You seem to forget that the Dunyain did not send Kellhus out of their own volition. Moenghus plagued them with his dreams. This led the Dunyain, who as you may recall are unfamiliar with sorcery, to kill themselves and send out his son, Kellhus, so that Moenghus would stop harrassing them. This does not imply a master plan on their part. Their hand was forced. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 05 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Curethan":3g3a0wmv
...........................

PS I'm sure Baker talked about more dunyain, including a female dunyain too? I can't recall clearly.[/quote:3g3a0wmv]

Normally, I go out of my way to avoid spoilers, but I remember this too. A female Dunyain was supposed to accompany Achamian(?) Maybe the story was not mature at that point, but we'll see soon enough. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 05 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Mithfânion":2hytf7ns
Anor

It's entirely conceivable that the Dunyain play no further part in the novels


I don't think that's likely at all, given the current plotlines. Before we might just have speculated that Aspect Emperor and the books afterward would perhaps reveal to us in full, the Dunyain. Now that we have seen TJE, we know that we will most likley meet them.[/quote:2hytf7ns]

And what if Achamian finally gets to Ishual and finds that the Consult has preceded him? Achamian would find Ishual a smoking ruin; despite Dunyain martial prowess they would be bewildered by and helpless against sorcery. In that case of course maybe the Consult would keep a few Dunyain slaves to direct their research programmes. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 05 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Will, Peralogue

I think the reference to a female Dunyain was referring to Serwa, myself. She's not a true Dunyain, but Kellhus's children seem pretty similar.

Also, I think the greater danger to Ishual comes from Kellhus himself. I could totally see Akka getting there to find it a smoking ruin, carved apart by Gnosis weilding Kellhus. Sure, it's built on anagogic ground, but if Kellhus translated nearby he could probably draw the sorcery-ignorant Dunyain into a trap of some sort.

I remain unconvinced that the Consult could actually take the place, even if they could find it. I imagine that the cooperation between Dunyain must increase their combat effectiveness effectively. I think they could, in shifts, kill Sranc forever.

Further, the notion of a Dunyain slave strikes me as unlikely. I think if the Consult took any such they'd be themselves enslaved Dunyain style, quickly enough. Then again, the foursome at the top of the Consult might be too alien to be easily apprehended. We don't know enough. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 06 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

@Will, I don't recall that Ishual was built on anarcane ground. Atrithau ceertainly was, but there is another good reason for Kellhus to avoid the place (he is ostensibly its prince). Regarding the defence of Ishual, while I have no doubt that the remaining Dunyain could account for a Sranc horde, they would be helpless against any sorceror.

The notion of a Dunyain as a slave has in fact been visited in the novel before. Moenghus was a "slave" of both the Sranc and the Scylvendi. Moenghus certainly managed to subvert that Scylvendi tribe. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 06 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by srancchieftan, Candidate

@Will

You're forgetting that Kellhus has already been revealed as a prince of nothing in TWP. It is well known to anyone who was at Caraskand, when Kellhus was ordered to die on the circumference. The "official" reason he was ordered to be executed was because he posed as a prophet and because he posed as a cast noble. This is well known throughout the three seas. No one cared about this after he survived because then they beleived he was a prophet, leading the holy war to victory also didnt hurt. This is not a problem for Kellhus anymore.

If the Dunyain have chorae then they have a chance against sorcery. Maybe there is an inner circle of Dunyain who know about sorcery, and have chorae. They have too know about it to some extent, after all Meonghis sent them messages in their dreams.

Meonghis was a slave to the sranc, imagine that. After suffering from numerous sadistic sranc orgies, the scylvendi camp must have looked like a cake walk to him. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 11 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Will, Peralogue

@srancchieftain:

I didn't mean that Kellhus would be worried that they'd expose him. I just think that decreasing the # of dunyain active would decrease the # of people who would effectively be able to oppose him. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 11 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Will, Peralogue

@srancchieftain:

I didn't mean that Kellhus would be worried that they'd expose him. I just think that decreasing the # of dunyain active would decrease the # of people who would effectively be able to oppose him. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 14 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by srancchieftan, Candidate

my bad will i thought you said something that someone else said

my post was supposed to be directed to anor277, in response to him saying

"There are plots within plots within plots here, and I certainly can't untangle them. I do think, however, that the one over-riding concern of the Dunyain is to preserve their isolation and to keep the outside world at a far remove. On the other hand, maybe Kellhus himself wants to keep away from Ishual (and from nearby Atrithau) in order to keep the story he told about himself straight"

@Anor277
You're forgetting that Kellhus has already been revealed as a prince of nothing in TWP. It is well known to anyone who was at Caraskand, when Kellhus was ordered to die on the circumference. The "official" reason he was ordered to be executed was because he posed as a prophet and because he posed as a cast noble. This is well known throughout the three seas. No one cared about this after he survived because then they beleived he was a prophet, leading the holy war to victory also didnt hurt. This is not a problem for Kellhus anymore. Kellhus doesnt have to worry about Attrithau. However he certainly has to worry about Ishual, if other people find out about the Dunyain then they'll find out that Kellhus is not a god, like he claims. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 16 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by anor277, Didact

Quote: "srancchieftan":2fnij96u
........................@Anor277
You're forgetting that Kellhus has already been revealed as a prince of nothing in TWP. It is well known to anyone who was at Caraskand, when Kellhus was ordered to die on the circumference. The "official" reason he was ordered to be executed was because he posed as a prophet and because he posed as a cast noble. This is well known throughout the three seas. No one cared about this after he survived because then they beleived he was a prophet, leading the holy war to victory also didnt hurt. This is not a problem for Kellhus anymore. Kellhus doesnt have to worry about Attrithau. However he certainly has to worry about Ishual, if other people find out about the Dunyain then they'll find out that Kellhus is not a god, like he claims.[/quote:2fnij96u]

We'll have to agree to differ here. The men of the Tusk convicted Kellhus on "trumped-up" charges at Caraskarand. That Kellhus came down from the circumfix and led the now penitent men of the Tusk to victory after victory was a refutation of those charges. I suspect that a few of Kellhus' circle even now might entertain doubts if the Ordeal passed through Atrithau and that city refused to acknowledge Kellhus' pretend lineage. It's one problem that Kellhus can ignore simply by avoiding Atrithau. Ishual is also another potential problem he can ignore, simply for the reason that as far as we know the Dunyain want nothing to do with the rest of the world. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 22 March 2009 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Landrew, Candidate

didn't read all the posts here but the issue with Moenghus was that he was disturbing their internal quest. Moenghus was imposing something which they could not control which is anathema to the Dunyain. It polluted the recipients in a sense. They probably sent Kellus as much to kill Moenghus as to ensure Moenghus would cease his interruptions. No doubt they knew there was a risk that Kellus would return to them 'sullied' by the world as Moenghus had before. That possibility would have emerged in their reasonings as to how to respond to Moenghus. But at the end of the day, there would have been no perfect solution.

The Dunyain fled to Ishual in order, as we read in the prologue (i think) to the first book, to escape the world and pursue their own internal perfection in isolation. We haven't seen anything yet (in my opinion) which suggests they've changed their original objectives. Indeed Kellus' mission was established to preserve the status quo. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 25 January 2010 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

There is much talk of more dunyain entering the scene and while its starting to look like that will be the case I can't help but wonder how difficult the series will become to write if there are several dunyan interacting. Bakker said that it's really hard to write for Kellhus in that youtube interview, and so writing for several 'kelluhses' interacting and likely even competing would be insane. I mean, I'd love to see it but it might be too much for even our venerable and much-loved author. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 02 March 2010 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Jerako, Candidate

I am of the opinion that Kellhus was -not- sent to kill Moenghus. That simply became his objective, as he learned more. One of Kellhus' first thoughts after leaving Ishual (when there was nobody around to decieve yet, so I doubt he's lying) was: I shall dwell in my father's house.

Odd thing, if he was truly sent to assassinate him.


EDIT: To clarify, Kellhus was sent to appease Mo, so that he'd stop harrassing them, then they killed all those Mo could contact. view post


Dunyain machinations posted 04 February 2011 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Gothmog, Commoner

@anor277

Perhaps, of course the Dunyain subsequently turned off all of the other individuals within Ishual capable of receiving Moenghus' dreams (i.e. all of them potential sorcerors).

This is misleading. In fact, they terminated all the people that knew Moenghus from before he set out of Ishual, not all sorcerers. Whether only the people who knew him and were sorcerers received the dream is questionable. Gnostic and Imperial sorcerous communication at least (likely all known) seem to function sorcerer-to-sorcerer only. Psukhe, however as we all know, functions fundamentaly different. It's ability to alter the world without decay suggests the possibility of sorcerer-to-normal person communication. This is assuming Kellhus' decription of the Few to Achamian in TTT is correct.


The whole Dunyain seclusion is somewhat conflictional. On one hand, they have indesputable firsthand accounts and evidence of the First Apocalypse happening (or ending) at the time they started living in Ishual and bred Anasurimbor blood to them. I think it fair to say that Celmomas and Seswatha knew nothing of Dunyain being in Ishual. If i recall correctly, the whole fortress, except the bastard Anasurimbor child was slaughtered before the arrival of the enigmatic Dunyain. Whence they came is unexplained, but it would have to be pretty damn isolated for them not to know of First Apocalypse as well as existance of sorcery. Had they known of either, i can't imagine they would live in isolation as they do, even if select few at the top of their hierarchy knew of it.


I am of the opinion that Kellhus was -not- sent to kill Moenghus. That simply became his objective, as he learned more. One of Kellhus' first thoughts after leaving Ishual (when there was nobody around to decieve yet, so I doubt he's lying) was: I shall dwell in my father's house.

Odd thing, if he was truly sent to assassinate him.

Pretty much this.
We've no reason to assume Kellhus' inner dialogue is lying when he's conflicted about whether the Dunyain axioms still hold. He's conflicted because of the immensity of new knowledge he'd gained, which is (supposedly) not available to the Dunyain. This weight of knowledge can't but crush the intention with which he was sent out. I'm not even certain what the intention was, it is conveniently suited to whatever suits him the most at the time, in dunyain fashion. Note that he, by his own words, killed Moenghus because of all the sins he's commited while remaining no more than Dunyain.

Here lies another huge nest of snakes.
We cannot assume the Ishual Dunyain fall under the same judgement. In fact, it would make no sense for them to. Kellhus was their paragon (more or less proved with the tree exercise by Pragma) when he was sent out after Moenghus. Let's assume he's not delusional here first. Until he believed in the inevitable judgement of the Outside, he did all things Dunyain. Was there no sin? nothing warranting his damnation?
Either there wasn't, in which case the Ishual Dunyain are likewise not damned, or he did and was absolved of it due to not knowing it. I find the latter less believable, because of Moenghus. He was likewise sent out, had access to all the Three Seas knowledge. If both knew the same facts about the world (and i think they did - while Moenghus didn't have Achamia, he had additional 30 years advantage), they should come to the same conclusion that Ouside is an active agency and it's damnation a big no-no. Moenghus did not come to this conclusion and was, in Kellhus' eyes damned, regardless of him "not knowing" sin is real. Of course, Kellhus becoming a Prophet even in his own eyes may have something to do with it.

So unless Kellhus' prophetic status absolves him of previous sin, or perhaps all sin (even leading others unto sin) alltogether, Moenghus should be an isolated case of Dunyain damnation.


The case of sorcery is another interesting question.
On one hand we have Kellhus' judgement that it is no longer a warrant of damnation, on the other Mimara's firsthand experience that it does. Considering previous incarnations of the Judging Eye (recorded ones Achamian spouts anyway) i lean towards public opinion of it being damnable is correct.
Yet Kellhus practices it, when he should side with the Consult from the first bruise of the Mark he received, according to Dunyain axioms. More than that, he even actively leads others to practice it. Is this some sort of Machiavellian "end justifies the means" god-issued absolution to Prophet rank people? Perhaps Kellhus actually believes that it is not damnable and is not commiting a sin practicing it. Or maybe he's just insane.
I feel grounds for speculations are wide and broad, with so much being in question or assumed true. view post


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