Three Seas Forum

the archives

dusted off in read-only

  •  

Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 28 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Entropic_existence, Moderator

So I haven't seen a post on this yet, although I thought it was perhaps one of the most interesting things in the book and that is Mimara and whatever she did with the Chorae. She is one of the Few but not yet tainted with the Mark, which is why she can still handle Chorae. But she did something with her chorae that we have never seen before. She metaphysically passed through it's contradictiont to "the other side" and sees it now as some sort of "holy light" as opposed to the void/absence she saw them as before (as the Few always do). And she used her Chorae to ward off the Wight-in-the-mountain/Hell.

That whole aspect of the book got me thinking about the Aporos and the rogue Nonmen who used Aporetic sorcery to make them. I wonder if Minara, untrained but highly intelligent as she is, is somehow stumbling upon unlocking something tied to Aporetic sorcery or whether it is more of a "Divine" influence. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 28 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by lfex, Peralogue

Yes, I think that Mimara may well become first Aporetic witch after several thousands years. What are the implications of this is anyone's guess at this stage, though. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

Well, you know - the damned couldn't aprehend it as holy cuz they're, well, damned eh? So I guess that could be the contradiction involved in aporetic sorcery. The creation of something holy with sorcery?

God's tears.... heh, cool.

But I don't think Mimara warded so much as placated. "Who guards the gates?" That whole last scene was pretty awesome, I think I shall reread it. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "Curethan":3u6u9y2i
Well, you know - the damned couldn't aprehend it as holy cuz they're, well, damned eh? So I guess that could be the contradiction involved in aporetic sorcery. The creation of something holy with sorcery?

God's tears.... heh, cool.

But I don't think Mimara warded so much as placated. "Who guards the gates?" That whole last scene was pretty awesome, I think I shall reread it.[/quote:3u6u9y2i]

Yes the whole thing about the "Gates being unguarded" I thought was rather interesting. As always with Scott I suspect some deeper subtect going on there. And indeed perhaps the Damned can't perceive the Chorae as holy because they are Damned BUT remember that the Thousand Temples has always employed that order composed of the Few who were not sorcerors. So I suspect that Mimara did something extraordinary in her perusal of the Chorae. She did after all, manage to fight through it's contradiction to "the other side." view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Chirios, Candidate

It doesn't make any sense to have the Chorae as actual tears of god though. The Chorae first appeared during the Nonmen - Inchoroi war; why would the God create weapons to destroy the only link they have to the world? view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by last_inchoroi, Commoner

I've also found the chorae to be one of the cooler aspects of Earwa...another way Scott takes something standard and adds a unique twist to it. I'm insanely excited to see what more Mimara can do further with the Chorae, and what Achamian has to say about it...I always love his dissertations that do so much to expand on Scott's lore...there are never enough though. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( --> view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Chirios&quot;:1t9u3prf
It doesn't make any sense to have the Chorae as actual tears of god though. The Chorae first appeared during the Nonmen - Inchoroi war; why would the God create weapons to destroy the only link they have to the world?[/quote:1t9u3prf]

I have a feeling we shall learn more in The Great Ordeal about Aporetic Sorcery as well as the more Divine aspects of Earwa's Metaphysics. I, personally, don't see them as literal Tears of God, they were created by Sorcery after all. But there could be some sort of connection to the Outside and the 100. The 100 don't exactly appear to like Sorcery. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 January 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;last_inchoroi&quot;:3dq2ldtr
I've also found the chorae to be one of the cooler aspects of Earwa...another way Scott takes something standard and adds a unique twist to it. I'm insanely excited to see what more Mimara can do further with the Chorae, and what Achamian has to say about it...I always love his dissertations that do so much to expand on Scott's lore...there are never enough though. <!-- s:( --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_sad.gif" alt=":(" title="Sad" /><!-- s:( -->[/quote:3dq2ldtr]

Indeed. I love Achamian's lectures on Sorcery and Metaphysics, they are some of my favourite parts of the series. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 02 February 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Cynical Cat, Auditor

In the Prince of Nothing we learned a lot of what was believed to be true about the metaphysics of Earwa was in fact false or distorted. I think Scott has another set of revelations in the Aspect-Emperor. It would be wise to consider the widely accepted explanations for any metaphysical phenomena as unproven speculation and consider alternative explanations. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 22 March 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by nonman_erratic, Commoner

When I read the bit about Mimara and the Chorae, I started drawing parallels with the PoN... There were several rhetorical arguments regarding Kelhus as a prophet learning the Gnosis... How could it be blasphemous for the mouth of God to speak the Word of God...

What about a Tear of God coming from the Judging Eye (of god? - As per the explanation in TJE, there is a small piece of God in every person - Some obviously inherit ?his? judging eye)...

I have a feeling that The Judging Eye of Mimara is going to be significant with regards to the ultimate Damnation of Sorcerers... Part of the whole subjectively objective right and wrong system in Earwa. If the Eye of Judgement is able to be modified such that it no longer sees the sorcerous as damned, subsequently the subjective damnation could be altered? view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 22 March 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Landrew, Candidate

the interesting thing with the Chorae - we're told they were made 'by sorcery' - aporetic sorcery (whatever that is). But you'd have to wonder at the mechanics of that . It is a paradox. how can mere sorcery create something which entirely negates sorcery? It is like using hot to produce absolute cold (which is the complete absence of heat). The more 'hot' you add, the further you are from the destination.

One analogy I had thought of (but discard) is how by cramming enough matter together - eventually you get a black hole (which from the outside appears to 'destroy' matter or be an 'absense' of matter). Except that we really know that a black hold doesn't destroy matter at all and isn't at all an absence of matter.

So there is an inherent paradox in the seemingly simple explanation of Chorae as being merely sorcerous artifacts. one needs something more than mere sorcery. Hard to believe, however, that 'tears of god' could have any literal truth considering for whom the chorae were originally produced.

On another point, I keep reading comments that refer to the internal order of Earwa in terms of Truth and whether 'truth' becomes 'objectively true' once 'subjectively believed' by enough people. So damnation of sorcerers could be undone if enough people stopped believing in it. And other people have written that the supposed inherent falseness of objective morality has been one of Scott's targets throughout this series. I disagree. Seems to me to be crystal clear that there is an objective, unchanging moral order in Earwa. There are, objectively, gods (in the pantheistic sense of lesser powers who have specific personalities). There may be (likely is) a GOD. There is also something there which, when spoken to, produces (sorcerous) power. What this is that makes sorcery available is a question which I don't believe has been satisfactorily answered.

In Earwa there are objective moral answers to many (perhaps all) questions, however, we (and the characters in the book) don't necessarily know what those answers are. Scott's quarrel is with certainty, not objective morality. the statement (and proof of the statement) that &quot;People are easily deceived&quot;, or even &quot;all people are deceived&quot; bears no relationship whatsoever to the statement &quot;there is no objective Truth&quot;. It only bears relationship to the statement that 'one should be slow to judge'. The fact that a person is willing to kill and die for the answer they believe to be correct is not sufficient proof that it is the correct answer. This is patently true and anyone can think up dozens of examples of beliefs about the world which differ and yet one of them is true to the exclusion of all others (or at least more true than all others). It is always a mistake to go from proposition 'A', that &quot;people believe different things about X&quot; to conclusion 'B', &quot;nothing about X is True&quot;. This is also true in the realm of morality. Scott shows all sorts of examples of people committing terrible crimes in the name of beliefs which aren't true. Or, two peoples fighting each other with righteous certainty in the truth and justice of their own cause. One side, at least has to be mistaken. That doesn't mean there is no objective yardstick. It only means people are easily deceived. Given that knowledge, one should think very hard before making a judgment about another person.

Sorcery is (probably) objectively evil regardless of whether the user has the best intentions. Maybe we will never know. Scott often uses ambiguity and conflicting information to make the point that certainty is dangerous and the Truth is elusive. However, regarding the morality of sorcery, ponder the following: have we ever seen sorcery which is not destructive or having a predominantly destructive use/purpose? The few exceptions i can think of is speaking over a distance to another and the very new trick of translocation. Presumably there are a few other tricks which are not inherently destructive but for the most part they are inherently destructive and actually used to kill. But even these, while not necessarily destructive are possibly destructive of the created order. Now we say 'well sorcerers may kill but they do so in pursuit of worthy goals'. How many people do you think Akka has killed in his lifetime? At least hundreds, probably thousands. The 'good intentions' of the Mandate don't absolve that anymore than in the real world we forgive the cops if they beat and torture a criminal in order to get information about his confederates all in the name of law and order. We didn't look the other way at Abu Ghraib just because things were done in the name of undermining a murderous insurgency.

Moreover, as noted previously, we don't know the origin of sorcery. What activates it? what makes it effective? who is the sorcerer speaking to when he calls power into focus? Is he speaking to God? a small g god? the devil? demons from another realm/dimension? How many kindly old sorcerers have we seen? How many would you like to see as your father/grandfather? Haven't the vast majority been despicable? Maybe we are deceived about the nature and inherent morality about sorcery because we don't want it to be true that sorcerers are necessarily damned because we like Akka? view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 31 March 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by kidten, Candidate

With The Judging Eye, Mimara can see the damnation of sorcery. When she looks at the Chorae see's a light. A Tear of God. Chorae kills sorcerers and negates the effects of sorcery towards the individuals holding one. Kind of like holy water to vampires. Looks to me like Mimara is going to see a lot more with this special talent she has. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 31 March 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Landrew&quot;:2yz5hsn2
Moreover, as noted previously, we don't know the origin of sorcery. What activates it? what makes it effective? who is the sorcerer speaking to when he calls power into focus? Is he speaking to God? a small g god? the devil? demons from another realm/dimension?[/quote:2yz5hsn2]

Actually Kellhus gave a very cogent explanation of sorcery in TTT to Akka. Put simply, there is an Oversoul that encompasses and connects all sentient beings, that the Outside is really the Inside of us all, and a sorcerer is someone who taps into that power of the Oversoul. Of course cogency itself is no guarantee of validity. Yet let us ponder this: this is from Kellhus, who is likely the smartest guy in the world (with the possible exception of other Dunyains), who has no reason to lie to Akka, who most of the time likes to use truth to impress and control others. All in all, one can say this is indeed the considered opinion of the most intelligent mind in the world.

As with so many things in the world of Earwa, of course there are plenty of contradictions. The most glaring, of course, is the Ciphrang. How is the Oversoul theory to account for this? In TJE, Akka explains Topos as thus: &quot;where the world slumbers or goes mad.&quot; Can we substitute &quot;the world&quot; with &quot;the Oversoul?&quot; Is the Ciphrang then the Oversoul's nightmare?

And then what of the Chorae? If Kellhus's Oversoul theory is correct, then Choraes are no Tears of God. They are the Tears of the Damned. How is the power of sorcery/Oversoul disabled? By somehow severing oneself from that overarching fabric (Onta, anyone?) that connects all. No wonder they are referred to as &quot;nothingness&quot; and &quot;emptiness&quot; -- they are not just holes in the Onta, they are holes in the Oversoul. Through these holes fall the souls of the damned.

How many kindly old sorcerers have we seen? How many would you like to see as your father/grandfather? Haven't the vast majority been despicable? Maybe we are deceived about the nature and inherent morality about sorcery because we don't want it to be true that sorcerers are necessarily damned because we like Akka?


Actually we have seen quite a few sorcerers. And based on what I can see they are no better or worse than your average man in power. I can't think of anything bad about any of them that can't be said of other kings or princes. view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 01 April 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Athjeari, Peralogue

Hmm...I did not interpret Kellhus' conversation with Akka in the same way.
It has been awhile since I've read TTT, but I looked at it as the human soul in everyone as representations of the Outside manifested in the world. That each person's soul is linked to the outside and this links everyone to one another (because we are all linked to the outside) I did not take it that there was an Oversoul (which would suggest that each person is one and the same, yes?)

Kellhus does not necessarily have to be right about his assumptions of the outside either. When he told Akka this, he had not teleported into the outside yet. It is possible for Kellhus to be wrong, and I think Akka even felt that his example displeased him.

Basically, I was under the impression that Kellhus said that part of the God is within each human being, since the soul is connected to the Outside, and what makes sorcerers is that the soul has not forgotten the language of the God.

Otherwise, technically everyone would be able to be a sorcerer if they were all part of the one Oversoul, couldn't they? view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 03 April 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Athjeari&quot;:2yppbpks
Hmm...I did not interpret Kellhus' conversation with Akka in the same way.
It has been awhile since I've read TTT, but I looked at it as the human soul in everyone as representations of the Outside manifested in the world. That each person's soul is linked to the outside and this links everyone to one another (because we are all linked to the outside)[/quote:2yppbpks]

Hehe I think that's the genius of Bakker -- he just keeps thing deliberately vague. I think what you describe there is in fact from Cnaiur. IIRC, this is when our favorite Utemot chieftain is riding with the skinspies in TTT and doing some philosophical musing. He is recalling one of those fireside chats back in the days TWP when Akka gave an interpretation (somehow involving a piece of parchment, I think) that just as the holes in a parchment allows light from the other side to leak through, so human souls are points of contact from the Outside. But remember this is during the TWP, long before Kellhus starts learning the Gnosis from Akka.

Comparing this hypothesis and the conduct of the Dunyain, Cnaiur concludes that they represent two opposite models of the world -- one open world where there could be contact with the Outside (in the form of madness or prophecy), the other closed where the actions and beliefs of one become the roots of others.

Curiously, the interpretation of the Outside given by Kellhus to Akka later in fact conforms to this &quot;closed&quot; model where in fact there is no real &quot;Outside,&quot; where we are in fact the Gods we worship.

I did not take it that there was an Oversoul (which would suggest that each person is one and the same, yes?)


That actually seems to be precisely what Kellhus means. The actual passage is fact quite brilliant, so it's worthwhile to quote at length:

**********************************************************************************************************************
(Kellhus) &quot;Indeed. Your body is your surface, nothing more, the point where your soul breaches this world. Even now, as we look upon each other from across this span, from two different places, we also stand in the same place, the same nowhere. I watch myself through your eyes, and you watch yourself through mine -- though you know it not.&quot;

Somehow, at some point, insight had become a species of horror. He fairly stammered. &quot;W-we're the same person?&quot; Kellhus was speaking this madness... Kellhus!

&quot;Person? It would be more precise to say we're the same here... But in a manner, yes. Just as there's but one Here, there's but one Soul, Akka, breaching the world in many different places. And almost always failing to apprehend itself as itself.&quot;

Nilnameshi foolishness! It had to be...

&quot;This is just metaphysics,&quot; he said, the very instant Kellhus whispered, &quot;This is just metaphysics...&quot;

Achamian gaped at the man, utterly dumbstruck. His heart hammered, as though struggling to recover its rhythm through violence of action. For a moment he tried telling himself that Kellhus alone had spoken, but the taste of the words was too fresh on his tongue. The silence whined with a strange horror, a sense of dislocation unlike any he had ever experienced, a sense of things once sacred and intact now broken... Just who had spoken?

The world reeled through refracted sunlight.

He is me... How else could he know what he knows?
************************************************************************************************************************

&quot;The silence whined with a strange horror&quot; -- <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> Classic Bakker awesomeness! view post


Chorae (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 21 April 2009 in The Judging EyeChorae (SPOILERS!!!!) by Landrew, Candidate

i don't think anything Kellus says along those lines should be accepted as accurate because it comes from him. In fact, the reverse. Kellus doesn't 'communicate' for its own sake. He doesn't reveal the truth in order to educate. He doesn't say fancy or profound things to show off. He speaks to enslave every time. each word is an arrow shot from a well-aimed bow. He could probably care less about the truth or falsity of matters such as those.

there may be truth or an element of truth at least where he is speaking to a person's internal situation (in the sense of reading them) but apart from that, my rule of thumb is to trust nothing the s.o.b. says ever. view post


  •  

The Three Seas Forum archives are hosted and maintained courtesy of Jack Brown