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The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 24 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Chirios, Candidate

Okay, so, in PON; it was pretty much established that beliefs command peoples actions. People believe baseless things and Khellus manipulates these beliefs for the purpose of domination.

But then comes the Judging Eye. The Judging Eye apparently proves that ALL of these beliefs are true; men ARE intrinsically better than women; sorcerers ARE damned. So, apparently, in the universe of PON, regardless of who you are, if you practice magic, you're evil. This is fact. So, the question is asked: Are men therefore intrinsically better than women in the PON universe? view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 25 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

Scott has stated that in Earwa belief gives objects and ideas real moral weight in Earwa. The relavation in JE is that some few individuals seem to be behind basing judgement, ie determining the moral spectrum, evidenced by Incariol's words in the nonman temple and the confrontation with the non-man king. Mimara's judging eye seems to imply that Kellhus' judgements have no weight to date. Wether damnation really equals evil or women are inferior is up to the individual, the judging eye shows the judgement that has been cast already (by the human 100 gods I assume, although this is ambiguous). view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 25 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Chirios, Candidate

So then, what would happen if Mimara had looked on a Fanimry-era Cishaurim ? view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 26 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

I really couldn't guess. There's a lot we don't know eh.

I'm interested to know what the judging eye saw when Mimara looked at Kellhus. I mean we know about the halos. Mimara has had ample oppurtunity - I'm amazed Akka didn't ask. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 26 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Chirios":2hgm91q2
.................But then comes the Judging Eye. The Judging Eye apparently proves that ALL of these beliefs are true.............sorcerers ARE damned. So, apparently, in the universe of PON, regardless of who you are, if you practice magic, you're evil. This is fact. ............[/quote:2hgm91q2]

This is not yet an established fact. Mimara focused the Judging Eye (whatever this is!) on Achamian, a jealous old recluse; Achamian might indeed be damned. She did not focus the Judging Eye on Incariol, or her step-father, or her siblings. While Achamian might indeed be damned, it does not follow that other sorcerors are damned too. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 27 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by professor plum, Peralogue

I seem to recall her seeing the same damnation in Cleric. Will try to dig up a quote later. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 27 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by last_inchoroi, Commoner

Scott has stated that in Earwa belief gives objects and ideas real moral weight in Earwa.


based on this, then, and assuming that each individual's belief in X Y or Z is equal to another's belief, be it in A B or C. assuming this equivalency of belief, then the important fact concerning right and wrong (and thus damnation) is not that there are morals intrinsic to the universe, but that what matters is what the majority believe...

If this is true (and I think it is a facet of the thousandfold thought) what Kellhus must be doing is attempting to shift the balance of belief from morals that cause pain (the subjugation of women) to morals that encourage balance and happiness.

why he would do this I can only guess...my pet theory is that he re-writ Sejenus' stance on women to empower his wife while he was absent on campaign/the great ordeal (the nice thing about Kellhus is that we can assume he is able to anticipate almost anything), and changed the tusk's stance on sorcery so as to enable his own appropriation of sorcery, and to better weld the sorcerous schools to him (the only sorc. other than achamian we see in JE pretty much weeps at the thought of his own salvation through Kellhus)

So this boils down to one of two options, and likely the latter.

1. Kellhus is entirely focused, to the exclusion of all else, on the destruction of the consult, the incu-holoinas, and gol-gutterath (pretty sure those last two are synonyms but the book is far away) and everything he does is to those ends with no regard for himself (would require a substantial growth in humanity and character from what we last saw of him in TTT) OR

2. Kellhus' immidiate goal is the destruction of the consult etc., but he harbors secondary goals and is actively working towards both ends

let me know if my logic fails as any point here. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 27 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by lfex, Peralogue

Quote: "professor plum":1taaja7f
I seem to recall her seeing the same damnation in Cleric. Will try to dig up a quote later.[/quote:1taaja7f]


But Cleric also may be damned for different reasons - especially if he works for the Consult. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 27 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by professor plum, Peralogue

^ the man makes a good point. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 28 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;professor plum&quot;:2vm79od6
I seem to recall her seeing the same damnation in Cleric. Will try to dig up a quote later.[/quote:2vm79od6]

See page 335 and following (Orbit, TPB, 2009) in which Mimara first uses the judging eye. She detects some wrongness about Incariol, just as she does about Achamian. Of course, we really need to see the Judging Eye used on Kellhus, or a Cishaurim, or another ranking sorceror. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

So what, besides sorcery, doth damneth? view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Harrol, Moderator

People that use words that end in th. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 29 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Chirios, Candidate

But, but, but that makes no sense. Its perfectly fine for some soldiers to destroy entire cities so long as they scream a Gods name while they do it; but its not okay for Achamian to use magic during his quest to SAVE THE WORLD? I'm sorry, but if literally, spending your entire life trying to save the world, and not commiting any truly evil acts while you do it, other than sing a song or two so that people don't stab you through the neck with raw iron; doesn't qualify as heaven material, what does?

Damnit. I just realised I'm typing from the passions. The things the Dunyain would have to say... view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

Quote: &quot;Harrol&quot;:2g9hc0vy
People that use words that end in th.[/quote:2g9hc0vy]

Damned lisp. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by lfex, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Chirios&quot;:2qka26pn
But, but, but that makes no sense. Its perfectly fine for some soldiers to destroy entire cities so long as they scream a Gods name while they do it; but its not okay for Achamian to use magic during his quest to SAVE THE WORLD? I'm sorry, but if literally, spending your entire life trying to save the world, and not commiting any truly evil acts while you do it, other than sing a song or two so that people don't stab you through the neck with raw iron; doesn't qualify as heaven material, what does?
[/quote:2qka26pn]


Well, you are assuming gods are reasonable. In Earwa this clearly is not the case. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 January 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

Religious belief almost always flies in the face of reason imo.

And you're supposed to sing the songs whilst stabbing... I wonder if Kosoter (being a holy veteran) looks all righteous to the Judging Eye. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 02 February 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Cynical Cat, Auditor

I'm not convinced that Mimara sees &quot;sin&quot;. She has some unusual metaphysical perceptions, but to assume that the traditional explanation is true is very dangerous territory in Earwa. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 03 February 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Curethan, Didact

- Damnation is a recurring topic among the sorcerers. Will we see any of the mechanisms behind the judgments related to this damnation as the series progresses?


Likely not. The occult and the theological are hopelessly muddled in the real world, so in the interests of realism I intend to keep things the same in Earwa.


Besides, with the possible exception death-row inmates, does anyone ever really know why they’re being burned?


-SB interview.

Assumptions &amp; guesses look like all we gunna get. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 03 February 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by lfex, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:27zm7ff9


-SB interview.

Assumptions &amp; guesses look like all we gunna get.[/quote:27zm7ff9]


Or perhaps not. Remember that Scott is notoriously afraid of spoilers, so he may simply be unwilling to say more. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 06 February 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Will, Peralogue

Indeed, I think that's the root of the matter. We have the connection that Damnation is eternal torment delivered in answer to some transgression. In Earwa, however, I think it might just be the torment part, the transgression may be entirely in the eye of the Outsider. Thus women, sorcerers, etc. are guilty of being what they are. Soldiers who slaughter cities or what have you are only guilty if slaughter is a problem for the Outsider doing the tormenting. It might dig that sort of thing. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 30 March 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Cynical Cat&quot;:1k2pb5yj
I'm not convinced that Mimara sees &quot;sin&quot;. She has some unusual metaphysical perceptions, but to assume that the traditional explanation is true is very dangerous territory in Earwa.[/quote:1k2pb5yj]

You my friend have just hit the proverbial nail on the proverbial head. Mimara sees SOMETHING -- which she interprets as damnation. We simply don't know if that's correct or not.

And yet. Yet. Yet.

&quot;I guard them! I hold the Gates!&quot;

Is she not proclaiming to be a gatekeeper of Hell? Of the inhabitants of Hell? Of the Damned? view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 02 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by Nonman or Astro Man?, Commoner

I don't know if this has been covered before, I'm new to the forums, but I am wondering about Mandate sorcerers damnation, in that whose damnation is Mimara seeing, Akka's(or any other Mandate sorcerer) or Seswatha's? I find it interesting that all sorcerers are damned, but that places (Slave Pits) and whole peoples like the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas can seen with the Judging Eye as damned as well. Also, is Mimara seeing Akka's sorcerous damnation, or damnation for something else entirely? Thanks in advance. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 03 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Nonman or Astro Man?&quot;:3soz4xrb
I don't know if this has been covered before, I'm new to the forums, but I am wondering about Mandate sorcerers damnation, in that whose damnation is Mimara seeing, Akka's(or any other Mandate sorcerer) or Seswatha's? I find it interesting that all sorcerers are damned, but that places (Slave Pits) and whole peoples like the Nonmen of Cil-Aujas can seen with the Judging Eye as damned as well. Also, is Mimara seeing Akka's sorcerous damnation, or damnation for something else entirely? Thanks in advance.[/quote:3soz4xrb]

As far as we know, sorcerous damnation is not unique to the Mandati; the Spires, the Saik etc all bore the sorcerous mark that betokened damnation (but is a Cishaurim damned?). Mimara's Judging eye did not focus on the Seswatha within Achamian but on Achamian himself (note that in the earlier novels Consult sorcerors and skin spies could sense the Seswatha within Mandati initiates). As regards whether Achamian is damned for something else, that's another matter entirely. Incariol (whom Mimara also perceived as damned) was a pretty sorry son of a bitch as well (like all the other Nonmen). view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 08 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by ThePrinceofNothing, Candidate

Quote: &quot;lfex&quot;:3aoy5ck1
Quote: &quot;Chirios&quot;:3aoy5ck1
But, but, but that makes no sense. Its perfectly fine for some soldiers to destroy entire cities so long as they scream a Gods name while they do it; but its not okay for Achamian to use magic during his quest to SAVE THE WORLD? I'm sorry, but if literally, spending your entire life trying to save the world, and not commiting any truly evil acts while you do it, other than sing a song or two so that people don't stab you through the neck with raw iron; doesn't qualify as heaven material, what does?
[/quote:3aoy5ck1]


Well, you are assuming gods are reasonable. In Earwa this clearly is not the case. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:3aoy5ck1]

Which is an interesting commentary on the rationality of our own world's Hebrew/Christian God: &quot;You may partake of the fruit on any tree; oh, except that one. Don't eat from that one.&quot; Or, &quot;Here are these seven scrolls; but don't open them until the world is ready.&quot; Wouldn't you love to be the person who has that job? Or, &quot;Job, go and sacrifice to me your son Isaac. That's right, take him... oh... oh, damn, he's actually going to do it! Metatron, stop him!&quot;

Suffice it to say that entities such as gods (beings beyond our understanding, beyond our comprehension) might seem very unreasonable in our eyes. view post


The Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) posted 09 April 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Curse of the Judging Eye (SPOILERS!!!!) by kidten, Candidate

I don't think the gods like it when a human speaks their language. That's why they damn them. What happens to the souls of those that are not damned? Has Bakker mentioned a &quot;heaven&quot; yet? Perhaps Kellhus knows they are all just food for Sranc (or worms) and it's time to change that. &quot;Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try ...&quot; view post


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