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*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 20 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Curethan, Didact

We know Yatwer and the white-luck are now Kellhus' greatest threat. Her agents seem well placed to wreak some major havoc. I am fairly sure Kelmomas is in her thrall, that nasty old Psatma seems set to eclipse the Ikurie hag as nastiest woman in the series and Sorweel looks to be the pivot of the ordeal's failure. I never imagined the 100 gods would take such a direct role, but it is a fascinating analogy to present religon as seeking to preserve its power at the expense of all else. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 20 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by professor plum, Peralogue

Slight tangent, but what I found most interesting was the Judging Eye – that Mimara could see Achamian's damnation. The implication being, perhaps, that the gods aren't crazy at all, and that Kellhus really is a sham prophet/godling.

This runs counter completely to my previous theory, which was that what people believe defines the metaphysics of Earwa. So, here's a hedge: there's some critical level of belief that's required to tip the balance of, say, the &quot;objective&quot; damnation of sorcerors, and it hasn't been reached. But the critical level of belief for Kellhus's divinity has. Eh. This book raises more questions than it answers. <!-- s:| --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_neutral.gif" alt=":|" title="Neutral" /><!-- s:| --> view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 20 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Curethan, Didact

I agree. The Judging eye itself blew me away. No way I was expecting this kind of thaumaturgical magic after PoN took such pains to avoid it. But in retrospect it seems logical. As you say regarding the damnation, it seems to reveal things that have a critical level of belief. It doesn't seem to indicate any extremes with neutral/mundane objects (i.e. trees, donkeys etc). I would postulate a combination of duration and mass of belief (if such a metaphor is possible).

*off topic* I'm so glad I grew a little chin-stroker beard before I read this book. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P --> view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 20 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by professor plum, Peralogue

To be fair, there are only two or three instances of the Judging Eye in the book. Of course it only applies to moral agents (i.e., people) — how could a something soulless like a tree ever be damned? I'm not sure what you mean by &quot;duration&quot;.

Anyway, another thought: the Inchoroi arrived and started the whole everyone-must-die shebang long before the ascent of Men, before the Breaking of the Gates or the revelation of the Tusk or any of the codification of human religion. We're told in The Judging Eye that the Nonmen, after a fashion, worship(ped) darkness — not any specific god or gods. And yet:

&quot;Damnation-shun, Cousin-sin. How-how? How-how-could-could-we-we-forget-get?&quot;
A sorrow flattens the glittering eyes. &quot;Not I. I have never forgotten ...&quot;


From which I take two things:
  • At one point, the Nonmen knew sorcerors
  • (or slavers, it's not clear) were damned. They forgot, but the reality didn't change. [/*:m:e6tiqmyr]
  • Cleric worked, or works, for the Consult.
  • [/*:m:e6tiqmyr]
view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 20 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Curethan, Didact

By duration i was thinking the length of time a thing was believed would also deepen the conviction, so it is that things change even more slowly. Sorcery may be an absolute ticket to damnation though, dependant on the true god. In this case that there is a clear means to the end of kellhus BSing about redemption.
Regarding my point on what the jugdging eye reveals, we don't really know what causes things to be good or evil. It is a judgement. So whose vision is Mimara cursed with?

We know that men are mere animals when the logos can be used to rule them. Their actions are dictated by the darkness more than moral choices. If someone was forced to use magic by an external agent they would still be damned, I think, Akka is presented as a good person damned by his descision to use magic, so where is the moral judgement? By this measure, it stands that morality is an absolute rather than relative, therefore non moral agents could be good or evil. For example, ravens might be held to be agents of evil in many cultures and actually be so in reality.

I think the darkness the Nonmen worshipped was the darkness that comes before. Though they were learned, they recognized and worshipped their ignorance as the thing that moved them.

&quot;Tisra hir' gingall vo'is?&quot;
&quot;Where is your judgement now?&quot;


Incariol asks this of the statue of Cu'jara Cinmoi. Which just happens to be the focus of the temple, and the statue to whom the nonman prayed... also in a pose remiscent of the circumfix... Ugh this isn't getting me anywhere but more confused. <!-- s:| --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_neutral.gif" alt=":|" title="Neutral" /><!-- s:| --> view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 24 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Chirios, Candidate

I'm not sure if Minara can actually see the damnation though. I think it would be more accurate to say that she see's the warp; that she can feel the fact that sorcery is unnatural. Scott has taken great lengths to show that moral absolutism is inherently stupid, so why would he create a system that proves that moral absolutivism is right?

And what the hell is wth all that stuff about &quot;Good Men shine brighter than good women&quot;? view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 28 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by last_inchoroi, Commoner

And what the hell is wth all that stuff about &quot;Good Men shine brighter than good women&quot;?


there are some old posts concerning the metaphysics of Earwa, the gist being that whatever is believed becomes real... that belief actually shapes reality, instead of various belief systems merely being random attempts to explain the world. In Earwa, belief is causal instead of arbitrary.

my theory is that this means that most people believe that men can be more good, or more evil? than women can in either capacity. because that is what is commonly believed.

check other postings, esp. under the thousandfold thought, as that's where the best metaphysical stuff comes up. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 28 January 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:2vineq6b
I agree. The Judging eye itself blew me away. No way I was expecting this kind of thaumaturgical magic after PoN took such pains to avoid it. But in retrospect it seems logical. As you say regarding the damnation, it seems to reveal things that have a critical level of belief. It doesn't seem to indicate any extremes with neutral/mundane objects (i.e. trees, donkeys etc). I would postulate a combination of duration and mass of belief (if such a metaphor is possible).

*off topic* I'm so glad I grew a little chin-stroker beard before I read this book. <!-- s:P --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_razz.gif" alt=":P" title="Razz" /><!-- s:P -->[/quote:2vineq6b]

I have to admit that the book threw me for a loop a few times this way. It turned how I thought Earwa worked completely upside down. I was so used to the Gods being more Abstract in PoN and expected it to remain that the focus of this book would be more straightofrward in the New Empire versus the Consult with some machination by a third party going on in the background, perhaps the Dunyain.

Having the Gods appear to be real, active, and distinct in such an &quot;in your face way&quot; was interesting to say the least. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 22 February 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Mithfânion, Didact

Damnation-shun, Cousin-sin. How-how? How-how-could-could-we-we-forget-get?&quot;
A sorrow flattens the glittering eyes. &quot;Not I. I have never forgotten ...&quot;

From which I take two things:

At one point, the Nonmen knew sorcerors (or slavers, it's not clear) were damned. They forgot, but the reality didn't change.
Cleric worked, or works, for the Consult.


I thought this was explained by Mimara. The damnation of the Nonmen in Cil-Aujas happened because of thousands of years of breeding, using and torturing the Emwama, the first Men. They were literally damned because of this, which is why the bowels of Cil-Aujas have become a hell, a topos, a place where the fringes between Earwa and the Outside have been ripped apart, or at least very thin. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 24 February 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Callan S., Auditor

Psatma hasn't done anything amazingly horrible as far as I recall. Esmi does/orders far worse.

Quote: &quot;Chirios&quot;:1f07zmxt
I'm not sure if Minara can actually see the damnation though. I think it would be more accurate to say that she see's the warp; that she can feel the fact that sorcery is unnatural. Scott has taken great lengths to show that moral absolutism is inherently stupid, so why would he create a system that proves that moral absolutivism is right?[/quote:1f07zmxt]
I think he was quoted somewhere as being excited about exploring a world where the moral point actuall was absolute and true.

Whether that's possible for us to really explore as readers, is an interesting question. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 01 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Chirios, Candidate

I also think that the Gods do have to be crazy. I mean, douchebag that he is, Khellus is still trying to stop the whole, Apocalypse thing. Killing off Khellus or ending his rule will eventually lead to the Apocalypse thing succeeding, especially with the Great Ordeal consisting of most of Earwa's major generals and a large portion of the society. Basically, if the Great Ordeal fails, Earwa is screwed. By screwing around with Khellus's empire, Yatwer is basically ensuring that the Great Ordeal will fail. If the Apocalypse happens, Yatwer loses control of Earwa, thus by hindering Khellus, Yatwer is hindering herself. This, is inherently stupid. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 02 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Curethan, Didact

Quote: &quot;Callan S.&quot;:2t75aj1j
Psatma hasn't done anything amazingly horrible as far as I recall. Esmi does/orders far worse.
[/quote:2t75aj1j]

Yeh, just my personal opinion on her character - totally unsympathetic to me, whereas Esme one can at least understand her actions. Religious zealotry has always been especially repugnant to me. <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: --> view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 02 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by RazorSmile, Candidate

Yep and worse, she's a hypocrite. I love how she rationalizes stealing a young man's youth by arguing that she was in fact giving him age and experience. I call bulls***. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 02 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Will, Peralogue

Odd, I find Psatma's actions extremely easy to relate to.

Her boss gives her marching orders, she gets it done. I know plenty of Marines that are the same way. If you have any kind of job (and, since you've bought a book and an internet connection you presumably do) you have a similar relationship with someone. Note that there's nothing religious about obeying an observed deity.

The fundamental difference between faith and knowledge is observation. I know that my diet coke exists because I see it sitting here in front of me. I believe that pluto exists because I read on the internet that someone saw it through a telescope, or observed its effects on other planet's rotations and worked out the math.

Psatma's knows Yatwer exists because she's met her. There's nothing religious about that. She obeys her deity as any rational being would. The Gods of this world are terrifyingly powerful, Yatwer's manifestations are extremely frightening. She also blesses and assists her worshippers. Psatma's actions have nothing of religion about them. Her boss gives her a gig, she gets paid, she does it.

Further, there's nothing hypocritical about it. I find the age transfer creepy, but I don't get even the slightest sense that Psatma was lying to herself about her reasons for it. We are reading her thoughts, there's no deeper level on which she could be deceiving us. She thinks that maturing White-Luck is strengthening him. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Will&quot;:1anw4p59
............................Psatma's knows Yatwer exists because she's met her. There's nothing religious about that. She obeys her deity as any rational being would. The Gods of this world are terrifyingly powerful, Yatwer's manifestations are extremely frightening. She also blesses and assists her worshippers. Psatma's actions have nothing of religion about them. Her boss gives her a gig, she gets paid, she does it.

.............[/quote:1anw4p59]
That's the problem when a deus ex machina actually comes out of the machine. Psatma's actions are indeed rational and holy with respect to her deity; but is her deity moral and rational in opposing Kellhus? I see the same sort of moral problems in Erikson's novels, where Gods are actually manifest and actively intervene on the mortal plane. The problem is with such a god (of chance or luck or of disease etc.) is what happens when a worshipper loses say a child to misadventure or a horrible disease. The worshipper would (and should) take steps to punish their god, to call them to account. Maybe later we'll see Kellhus (or someone) grab Yatwer by the balls and squeeze hard (yes I know Yatwer's a female principle). view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 03 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by RazorSmile, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Will&quot;:zbgtkefi
Odd, I find Psatma's actions extremely easy to relate to.

Her boss gives her marching orders, she gets it done. I know plenty of Marines that are the same way. If you have any kind of job (and, since you've bought a book and an internet connection you presumably do) you have a similar relationship with someone. Note that there's nothing religious about obeying an observed deity.

The fundamental difference between faith and knowledge is observation. I know that my diet coke exists because I see it sitting here in front of me. I believe that pluto exists because I read on the internet that someone saw it through a telescope, or observed its effects on other planet's rotations and worked out the math.[/quote:zbgtkefi]

Never thought of that. Presents interesting parallels with Kellhus' worshippers too. After all, their god is right there too, visible, touchable and real.

Psatma's knows Yatwer exists because she's met her. There's nothing religious about that. She obeys her deity as any rational being would.


Idunno. If anything, actually meeting one's god seems to have made her even more fanatical. Again, same with the warriors and kings of the Great Ordeal.

Further, there's nothing hypocritical about it. I find the age transfer creepy, but I don't get even the slightest sense that Psatma was lying to herself about her reasons for it. We are reading her thoughts, there's no deeper level on which she could be deceiving us. She thinks that maturing White-Luck is strengthening him.


She's not deceiving us, she's deceiving herself. view post


*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy posted 05 March 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* The gods must be crazy by Will, Peralogue

I'm not sure she's deceiving herself, in the sense that there might not be anything deeper to deceive. I think she is what she seems, not because her outer semblance accurately relays her inner nature, but in the sense that she's been hollowed out like a gourd by her deity, her outer semblance is all that's left. view post


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