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What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 15 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Trinket, Candidate

Hey all, havent been on these forums for a very long time, but I've had a philisophical sort of idea lately.

So,

What if I told you, that right now, everything around you might very well not exist?

What do I mean by that? Well, look at it this way. Everything around you, you percieve with your senses. And your senses are then interpreted by your brain. Now, if human perception is all we have to go on, then we have a very narrow veiw of reality. In fact, everything we see, hear, touch, feel, and taste exists to us, but in reality only exists in our minds. This is a step that our brains skip when they process the information about "Reality", but if you slow doen and think about it, theres a good chance that everything that exists, has existed, and will exist in future had many different perceptions, of which we only have one, that of Human. That covers the physical aspects, but what about the mental?

Which brings me to my next point. This is easier to see around us, and I'm sure many people have thought about this before. It involves mental, or abstract perception. Such things as: Good, Evil, Love, Hate, Courage, Trust, Rightousness, Power, and even reality itself, in essence are all abstract concepts. There is no concrete form of any of these things (Some might argue that reality has a concrete form, but if you refer to the first point, even that is kind of questionable).

So, every abstract concept mentioned above, every idea, has it's base not in reality, but in our minds. It could be said that, if you choose not to perceive any of the above mentioned, then for you, they cease to exist. *

Just something to think about. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

* I could apply the same concept to Religion (which I do, I'm an atheist) but that's not what this topic is about. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 16 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Lord Nerevar, Commoner

Hi Trinket,

It's an interesting idea.

You should read (if you haven't) R. Scott Bakker's Neuropath, since it uses a very similar philosophical concept. Also it is brutally fantastic. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 19 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Trinket, Candidate

Yeah I've been meaning to pick up a copy, I read the first chapter once and thought it was great.

Plus, Bakker's one of my favourite authors. Actually, I got the idea for the &quot;Nothing is Real&quot; from George Orwell's 1984. If you haven't read it, you should. It's a great novel, and a literary classic. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 22 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Thorsten, Candidate

What if I told you, that right now, everything around you might very well not exist?


Then I'd tell you that this is an ontological position known as [url=http&#58;//en&#46;wikipedia&#46;org/wiki/Solipsism:1mlcmn3w]Solipsism[/url:1mlcmn3w]. I'm not aware of any water-tight case which could be made against it, but all in all it's not a very plausible position.

Everything around you, you percieve with your senses. And your senses are then interpreted by your brain. Now, if human perception is all we have to go on, then we have a very narrow veiw of reality. In fact, everything we see, hear, touch, feel, and taste exists to us, but in reality only exists in our minds.


It is true that things are known to the mind only in the form of perceptions - but that does in no way disprove the existence of an outside reality, part of which we perceive. Indeed, that is the current scientific idea of how reality works - the 'true' reality are quantum states of fields, out of which perception creates the world of matter and energy you're more familiar with. The fact that, by persistent observation of nature, we actually came up with such a weird model of reality seems to argue somewhat against Solipsism - after all, if my mind makes up all the world around me, then why not do it in a simple-to-understand and pleasant way?

Such things as: Good, Evil, Love, Hate, Courage, Trust, Rightousness, Power, and even reality itself, in essence are all abstract concepts.


So what? Why would that lead you to the conclusion that they are not real? I'd argue that plenty of people have been killed for the sake of abstract concepts and ideas, so if they are not real, how can they cause people to be killed? They (like many other things) are not real in the same sense that a rock is real.

Well, consider a movie - say Shrek II on DVD. We can talk about it, we can watch it, so it clearly has some reality. Yet on the DVD are just magnetic markings - meaningless unless decoded. Still, the decoded signal is meaningless unless projected in a certain way onto a screen. And what is seen on the screen is also not real - we can't go to the studio and ask for an autograph of Shrek. So where in the whole thing is the movie? And yet, I'm willing to pay money to see it in a cinema, so it must be real, no? If it were just in my mind, why would I pay money?

* I could apply the same concept to Religion (which I do, I'm an atheist) but that's not what this topic is about.


You could certainly try, at which point you'd get in touch with yet one more sense of 'real' - the reality of revelation. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 25 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by CnaiĆ¼r, Peralogue

If nothing is real, then everything is an illusion. I've heard this perception many times, and I do find it plausible. I read something a while back about what Nikola Tesla concluded which I find myself agreeing to. He stated everything, from matter to energy, are just different manifestations of the same source/force. He labelled this source as the Divine Mind. In a way, this conclusion states the Divine Mind (or God/Creator/etc...) is the only thing real, and everything else is but a projection/illusion/hologram stemming from that source. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 25 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

This is not my area of expertise, but didn't Descartes focus on what is real and what is not real? A lot of his work went towards determining this and has been widely accepted throughout the world even now.

Descartes (pronounced De-Cart) is the well known philosopher that came up with the concept of, &quot;I think therefore I am&quot; Descartes' theories go far deeper than this one quote but even the one quote debunks the idea.

If we think and are real, than what we perceive to be real is reality. At least to us. (If you feel otherwise let me know, but how can you argue against it?)
I think a great argument against your point is according to you than humans themselves or our concept of self might not be real. Descartes argues otherwise. To argue against what we perceive as real you would first have to address whether or not that the &quot;self&quot; is real.

I admit I didn't read all the other posts and this might not be what the topic is pertaining to.
(I also admit that I need to brush up on my Descartes but I do know that the focus of Descartes' Ontology (or what is real) is matter. Descartes' Epistemology (how we learn about the world) focused on observation and experimentation. Descartes, even though he didn't know it when he lived, can be classified as a Positivist, which many many people are even today. What is real? What can be observed, touched, experimented and replicated) view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 25 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

Platonistic philosophy would also argue against what you stated about the idea/concepts of good/evil, love/hate, courage,trust, etc.

We as humans have a common idea as to what all these things are. This relates to Idealism to the fullest degree.
Simply put according to you we could argue what we call a chair is not actually a chair. To anyone that has no reference to what we have agreed upon as a chair they might view it as something totally different, but since the idea of what the chair is/does has been agreed upon the chair is a chair. (if this makes no sense let me know and I'll elaborate further)

The idea is the most solid form of what is real, it is even more real than matter itself. This is the Ontology according to Idealism

The things you have listed above could be considered real just because you were able to list them and all of us know immediately what you are referring to without you having to give definitions and descriptions of what each item is. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 29 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Callan S., Auditor

Quote: &quot;Trinket&quot;:2m5ad39n
It could be said that, if you choose not to perceive any of the above mentioned, then for you, they cease to exist.[/quote:2m5ad39n]
It could also be said it's possible not to percieve those things, and yet it neither proves nor disproves those things still in some way exist. Being able to shut down your senses doesn't really prove anything one way or another.

Mmmm, doubt! view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 30 November 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Trinket, Candidate

The idea is the most solid form of what is real, it is even more real than matter itself. This is the Ontology according to Idealism


Thats very interesting as well. I did partly mean that, but I didnt phrase it so well. But if the idea is more important than matter itself, and the idea only exists in our mind because we choose to think it, the we can just as easily abolish the idea. And if there is no idea in the first place, how can the matter mean anything at all? view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 06 December 2008 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by Athjeari, Peralogue

I would have to say that abolishing an idea is not easy because you would have to abolish it from the minds of everyone else too.

As for matter having no idea associated with it; we typically formulate an idea for all matter as soon as we discover the exist of matter. Think about it, do you ever look at something, or find something new and simply state, &quot;Oh that's matter&quot;. Even then you give it an idea because you have defined the matter as matter. You tend to try and discover it's purpose and you in most cases will name it. There is nothing that just &quot;is&quot;. We postulate ideas for everything that we discover. view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 20 March 2009 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

After reading some responses and thinking some I just want to quote a part of the Judging Eye that I just quoted on some other thread (it's not really a spoiler as it isn't about the plot, but I do love it so):

The world is only as deep as we can see. This is why fools think themselves profound. This is why terror is the passion of revelation.

Thinking it's all an illusion might just be the illusion, eh? I've read too much Baudrillard recently to comment any further without my head caving into oblivion. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? --> view post


What if I told you, that nothing is real? posted 20 March 2009 in Philosophy DiscussionWhat if I told you, that nothing is real? by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

Okay, that above thing isn't true, i just haven't read ENOUGH Baudrillard recently to comment on it without caving into oblivion (on a side note I'm not sure if I like his work or not, so I'm not saying you should read it necessarily). That being said, real is just a word referencing that which is mutually agreed upon. Look at how entertainment has taken that word and made the most artificial situations imaginable and slapped 'reality show' on it, as if the show was more real than the real itself.
This all makes me think:
If no-thing could be a-thing than I would say that nothing is real.
I'm not sure if that's a joke or a poem or both or neither. view post


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