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What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 01 June 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by ThePrinceofNothing, Candidate

This is a post offering some of my own personal speculation on character parallels in the series. Likewise, I invite everyone to critique these ideas.

I know we are all familiar with the philosophy I have utilized for the title of this thread; the Dunyain belief that what comes before determines what comes after, and that this in fact enslaves all men. I'm not sure if these hypothoses are too plausible or obvious, but here are some ideas I've been pondering:

Warning: For those who haven't finished the series, there are some spoilers ahead

At the end of The Thousandfold Thought, Kellhus was named Aspect-Emperor. Achamian has been exiled; banished himself to wizardry. This in turn has created a rift between Kellhus and Achamian. Esmenet has forsaken Achamian for Kellhus (perhaps 'forsaken' is a strong word; she certainly is torn. Still, she harbors feelings for him).

What can we expect?

Anasurimbor Celmomas began the First Apocalypse when he called for a holy war against Golgotterath. This was called Celmomas's Great Ordeal. The first book of the new series will likewise be called The Great Ordeal, signifying Kellhus's holy war (upon, most likely, I believe Golgotterath). Seswatha was an important figure in the First Apocalypse. Observing Seswatha's history, one makes some interesting discoveries:

Born the caste-menial son of a bronzesmith
Identified as one of the Few at a young age
A prodigy as a youth
Became "fast friends" with Celmomas
Teacher of Celmomas and Anaxophus (I'm actually uncertain about this fact, so if anyone can help me I'd appreciate it; I'm fairly certain he was the teacher of at least one of them)
Became estranged with Celmomas because of influence over Celmomas's son
Had an affair with Celmomas's most prized wife

This all sounds familiar to Achamian:
Caste-menial son of a fishmonger
Identified as one of the Few at a young age
Became "fast friends" with Kellhus
Teacher of Kellhus (and Proyas...)
Becomes estranged with Kellhus upon the conclusion of The Thousandfold Thought (even exiled; one step past Seswatha)
Had an affair with Esmenet

Celmomas and Seswatha did not reconcile their differences until the "eve of the Apocalypse," the Encyclopaedia says. Is this the same fate that Kellhus and Achamian can expect? Will Proyas fulfil the role of Anaxophus? Will the Second Apocalypse be thwarted before it can begin? Will the Aspect-Emperor succeed? Or will the series merely serve to prove the age-old adage: that history, truly, does repeat itself?

And if this should be the case, will it prove the Dunyain to be false; that, in fact, all men are slaves to history? view post


What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 01 June 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by Harrol, Moderator

I find most of your thinking sound but I do not know about Kellhus and Achamain being reconcilled. In the exerps at the beginning of the chapters Akka writes of his continued hate anf fear of execution should he write too much detail. view post


What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 03 June 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by Athjeari, Peralogue

Could concept, and I have thought about this as well. The stories are quite paralled, so much so that it's hard not to think about it.
I think that Bakker paralled them for a reason, either to support the Dunyain philosophy, or turn it on it's head.
Only time can tell

This might have already been discussed on this board but forgive me I'm new.

I had always wondered why Kellhus was the Harbinger. If you look at the facts Moenghus was back in civilization first. He was the first Anasurimbor to return. Should he not be seen as the Harbinger? And one thing that I always wondered about the Celmomas prophecy was where does it ever say that an Anasurimbor will defeat the second Apocalypse? He merely says that a decendant of his will return at the end of the world.

I also feel that the Mandate is assuming this means that an Anasurimbor will save the world but it might not be so. I think it might be safe to argue that Seswatha had more influence in stopping the first apocalypse than an Anasurimbor. view post


What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 03 June 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by ThePrinceofNothing, Candidate

Great post. Regarding your interpretation of the Celmoman Prophecy, I find it to be interesting. You're right, it doesn't say that an Anasurimbor will "save the world." Only that one "will return." Personally, I believe (and this has been discussed elsewhere on this forum) that Moenghus has not had his final word. I believe that Kellhus underestimated him, and that-while he may not return in physical form-his words and influence in the world will continue to haunt Kellhus's thoughts. I feel that Kellhus has been very lucky so far, and almost too persuasive. I have a strong feeling that, eventually, he is going to realize something about himself, and/or many of his followers are going to realize that he truly isn't what they've believed him to be. view post


What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... posted 06 June 2008 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]What Comes Before Determines What Comes After... by Curethan, Didact

A reconciliation (between K & A) seems possible to me. The characters are certainly bound for many further changes beyond the close of TTT. Certainly Akka's writtings prefacing the chapters would indicate that this son't be the case at the outset of the Judging Eye, but I believe these excerpts would have been written by him directly after his self precipitated exile (say in the first 5-10 years of the narrative gap), his history of the Holy War probably being a carthatic exercise to some degree.

Parralels occur all the time in history, I think that Bakker's plotting acknowledges this and also uses this technique to manipulate our subconcious expectations and keep things... unpredictable, in a way. The mind seeks patterns which fashion expectations which can then be either satisfied or surprised. I think its what makes speculating about this story arc engaging, there is a rich vein of history, hints and allusions that runs deep through this tale.

I would postulate the possiblity that little Mo is ostrasized by his 'siblings' and somehow ends up under the tutelage of Akka... Aknowledged as Kellhus' first child (but really not of Dunyain blood at all...) he could be the disenfranchised prince that Scott mentioned as having a new PoV. view post


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