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Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I am wondering what will be Kellhus's state of mind during the Aspect Emperor.

By the end of the Prince of Nothing he has eliminated all of his opposing factors, including his own father and he whom taught him war. The only exception is Achamian whom he has said will kneel before him when next they meet. Many may read this as Kellhus saying what was expected of him to say in front of his court, but we know that Achamian has survived the next twenty years (since he's in the next series).

At the opening of Aspect Emperor we will see Kellhus in control of the entire Three Seas, and leading a campaign north against Golgoterrath. He leads all. He has mastered a level of Gnosis beyond the Mandate School. He is a prophet in the eyes of the land.

And his sons are "murderous". Possibly a reflection of the father.

Is Kellhus a meglomaniac? He believes that he is more than Dunyain. He is Dunyain, master of the Gnosis, a Holy Prophet, and the Harbinger of the Second Apocalypse. Has his power consumed him? view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Kellhus has gone through many transformations thourght the PON series. Where in the first two books you see his struggles and glimpse his indecision, his POV is offered much less in TTT.

He has come to think of himself as a god and i believe that he is mistaken. I believe it is possible that the ruling Dunyain who sent him saw this all before they sent him. It is possible that they are the real enemies of the Consult and the ultimate protectors of man. They forsaw that Kellhus would attempt to avenge his Bloodline and attempt a seige of Golgotterah. By knowing what has come before they control what comes after. Surely the council of Dunyain knew how Kellhus would come to rule and attempt to learn sorcery to combat his father.

Kellhus will find a fight against the Non men and the No God quite un winnable without the guidance of his teachers. but inturn they will denounce him for his mark.

they must have some power beyond the logos or the logos itself will prove most powerful of all.

as for his Sons and, I think that Akka must become a tutor to one of them who will ultimately bring the real war against the No God view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

i was under the impression the dunyain had denouced allthings sorcerous, including the no-god and the consult view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I do not think it too plausible that prior to Moenghus's dream contact with the Dunyain, that they would be conditioning a prodigy child like Kellhus, i.e. conditioning him against the knowledge of sorcery actually existing. Sorcery seems very logical to me, and the better the Dunyain understood it the better for them and their Logos.

I really don't think that the Dunyain know about sorcery, or at least have been conditioned over the centuries to not believe in it. Although, at the same time I find it very hard to believe that they don't know about it. How could they forget something like sorcery, or even the Consult, when the North lay in such a waste and they live in a fortress which they acquired at the end of the First Apocalypse. Perhaps you are right Darkness. Perhaps the Dunyain do possess some greater power of insight, or whatever it is, that led them to condition Kellhus in certain matters. We do know that Moenghus was sent out into the world to "scout" just prior to Kellhus's adolescence and his higher degrees of training. Why would the Dunyain want to scout the outside world? If this were a common practice, then sorcery would not have been hidden from them. If this is not a common practice, then why did they send Moenghus out, unless they saw something in his and Kellhus's future? Did the Dunyain condition the ground for Moenghus just as he in turn conditioned it for Kellhus? view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

the dunyain sent moengus out to scout after being attacked by sranc. they sent him out to see if teir isolation was intact, and after his return, deemed him tainted and outcast him

and it would be very easy to ferget something like sorcery or even the state of the world when none have left or entered the fortress for 2000 years and ones people do not beleive in history or the past. as stated several times in the book, sorcery goes against all things dunyain, compleatly reversing the cause and effect of the logos view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

Wow, thanks for the clarification.

But I do not think sorcery goes against the Logos. I think the source of sorcery does however. That fact that a man can hurl a spear or hurl a firebolt has the same cause and effect scenarios. But from where do they draw this power? That would be the troubling question for the Dunyain. It has been stated that they do not believe in the Outside. Sorcery tells them that it is real, and probably can't be comprehended. Though the TFT may be just that, the comprehension of the Outside.

Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor? view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Jamara":288bg8f3
......................................

Which brings us back to Kellhus. Moenghus might have comprehended the Outside, but could not manipulate it due to becoming Cishaurim. He was left impotent with his knowledge. But Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis, the Abstract, as well as begun comprehending the nature of the Outside. Could he be mad with power by the start of the Aspect Emperor?[/quote:288bg8f3]

He could be, but I tend to doubt it. Thoughout the first three novels Kellhus was just too penetrating, too astute to fail in his own self-evaluation. At the start of The Great Ordeal he will be a towering figure, the heir of both Seswatha and Inrithi Sejenus and of course of Celmomas as neither S. nor I. S. held temporal power - and Kellhus would easily be greater than any of those predecessors. This is one of the reasons why I'm forced to like Madness(?) suggestion that early on the new series, Kellhus will fall victim to some little mischance or unforeseen circumstance and that the struggle against the Consult will be continued by lesser mortals. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good question. Kellus will be focused on one thing - stopping the Second Apocolypse. It's interesting that he's still working on this 20 years following book 3....

As for the "muderous" reference...there is a VERY interesting potential dynamic here. Serwe's child with Kellus (actually, Cnaiur) will probably see himself as Kellus's rightful heir over Kellus's true child. Interesting court dynnamics there.

And the thought of a half Dunyain child running around without daddy's influence is kind of scary. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> (I might be jumping the gun in thinking Kellus won't be around to raise the little brat though <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> ) view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Trutu Angotma&quot;:2m19x0q8
i was under the impression the dunyain had denouced allthings sorcerous, including the no-god and the consult[/quote:2m19x0q8]

Exactly...that, and the fact that the Dunyain were obviously sent into exile by the The Consult (evident by their desperate approach to the towers of Ishual finding the only survivor of the Apocalypse in the North the last Anasurimbor!) leads me to believe that they have set up the Benjuka table to bring ultimate desctruction upon The Consult, so that they will never have to face near extinction again.

I think Kellhus will ultimately fall, though that is hard to believe since i jsut finished rereading the fight between him and the non-man in the prologue to TDTCB and now that he has the Gnosis, he will easily be able to do away with several at a time. But somehow he will fall and Akka as Sesthatha and his Anisurimbor student will bring the Spear of Heron (the significance of which i am still a little cloudy on) and destroy the No God once and for all!

Of course this is much too simple, I am sure that the role Esmi will play in the raising of Her sons will loom large in the fate of the world. but i think what role she will play is much to hard to predict. but i think that she will be jaded by her responsibilities and be unable to love ever again! view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by jude, Commoner

Quote: &quot;TheDarkness&quot;:1nq0mtkl
Exactly...that, and the fact that the Dunyain were obviously sent into exile by the The Consult (evident by their desperate approach to the towers of Ishual finding the only survivor of the Apocalypse in the North the last Anasurimbor!)
[/quote:1nq0mtkl]

really? i didn't see that at all to be the case. is there more evidence for this, or just that one scene at the beginning? view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by TheDarkness, Peralogue

No, merely circumstantial eveidence. It seemed to me that the Dunyain were in a desperate situation, since they were displaced and starving at the end of the first Apocalypse. Which would suggest that they were displaced as a result of the first great ordeal, and might seek ultimate revenge upon The Consult with whom they seem to be at odds because of their inherent conflicting beliefs...that The Consult using sorcery and force, The Dunyain using intellect and the shortest path.

The next inference comes from the fact that the Dunyain must have known what would happen by sening Kellhus to Shimeh. What better way to weaken the no god and the Consult then by sending one of their own who would become ultra powerful and be able to lead men not only by the use of the Logos, but by his legendary name as well!!!! view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;TheDarkness&quot;:n0i9yqnd


.......s student will bring the Spear of Heron (the significance of which i am still a little cloudy on) and destroy the No God once and for all!...[/quote:n0i9yqnd]

the heron spear is a spear constructed of pure light and was the weapon of the inchori leader sil, called suorgil, and was the only wepon that could injure the no god because of the chorae imbedded in his armour view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by TheDarkness, Peralogue

ahh I see!! thats awesome, very informative thanks!

Its to bad they dont have a Wal-Mart in Earwa. I'd bet they would have it in stock. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I've pondered whether the Dunyain were created/established by the Consult. I often thought that they might have been a venture to find a way of maintaining power should the Apocalypse succeed and the Outside become closed from the Mundane world. The quest for a self-moving soul. But then if the Consult were the originators of the Dunyain, why do they not know of their existence. Especially since Mekeritig did not know what Kellhus was when they fought in the TDTCB prologue.

I think the Dunyain were just a group of refugee monks of some minor order. And rereading the prologue it is evident that their loss of memory of sorcery was intentional. They burned the Vizier's books and removed all sorceric runes from Ishual.

And I definitely think that the Heron Spear will be recovered, most likely by Achamian. I just think that so much emphasis was placed upon it by Seswatha that Achamian will be forced to find it. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

but i was under the impression the heron spear was destroyed by the scylvendi, at least in akkas oppinion view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I'm not sure if Akka thinks its destroyed, but it would not be the first time that it was thought destroyed later to resurface. After Eleneot Fields it was thought destroyed only to resurface fourteen years later. The glossary says that it was lost when the Scylvendi sacked Cenei (though it does not say that it was taken by the Scylvendi . . . perhaps ushered away in secrecy) and &quot;that its whereabouts are presently unknown&quot;. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Madness, Peralogue

Though I've read this thread a few times since it's creation, arguments and speculation have certainly changed the topic. The initial debate, embodied by the thread's title, is certainly one of import to The Great Odreal.

However, I guess I post now, not to reiterate what I believe may be Kellhus's mindset - though I may -, but to quash some inexcusable misconceptions which have surfaced throughout the entirety of this thread.

Since the majority of this thread consists of posts by posters newer to the three-seas, a quick tip:

Beware of writing in absolutes.

Not to imply that I've not done it but I cannot believe some of the speculative misconceptions you've posted.

The motives of the Dûnyain as a whole are impossibly elusive to say the least. I'm inclined to agree with Curethan, that the Dûnyain's role in events will be one of true surprise to us readers.

- The Dûnyain went to great lengths in order to eliminate prospects of sorcery from their halls. I cannot even imagine the patience one must have to scrape sorcerous inscriptions from what could well have been a Nonmen dwelling, however, I am not Dûnyain. It's possible that within the Pragma there are countless conspiricies and truths they keep from their brethren. I, however, believe it unlikely there are any.

- The Dûnyain know of the &quot;ancient wars&quot;, as made evident by Kellhus's nostalgia in The Darkness That Comes Before.

- The Dûnyain were not sent into exile by the Consult. They were refugees of an apocalypse. They happened upon Ishuäl and in seclusion expanded beyond their initial principle.

- The Dûnyain did not send Anasûrimbor Kellhus from Ishuäl in order to prevent the Second Apocalypse.

I believe in the Dûnyain's goal towards a self-moving soul. However, I believe that in seclusion the Dûnyain lack the entirety of variables to achieve the unconditioned soul.

Honestly, I've written this exact argument before so I will just copy and paste it.

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:55ginoab
I've always maitained that the Thousandfold Thought was in essence a deeper layer to the probability trance.

Firstly, the excerpt from The Thousandfold Thought that coincides with my own belief concerning it's nature:

Quote: Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought.

My assertions of the Thousandfold Thought follow much the same process.

I believe that the Dûnyain lack the proper variables in isolation to achieve their goal of an Unconditioned soul. The sole two of their number to have left Ishüal apprehend so much more reality than the worldborn no matter what circumstance they encounter. Likewise, the sole two Dûnyain to have left Ishüal apprehend the Thousandfold Thought; Moënghus through years and years of Dûnyain meditation, the probability trance, and Kellhus through the conditioned events his father Moënghus sets before him.

To me the Thousandfold Thought is like fate mapped though through logic and reasoning of circumstances; hense Kellhus knows what Moënghus will do before Moënghus himself infers it.[/quote:55ginoab]

Therefore, I don't believe the Dûnyain sent Kellhus from Ishuäl knowing what would happen. I believe that they sent him to assassinate his father, one who had intruded on and, in their eyes, polluted their monastic fastness.

I guess I've not much more to write for the moment. Friday afternoon is slipping into evenin' on me and the party, I've been informed, is elsewhere. Just a couple things to take into account of The Aspect-Emperor speculations.

It states nowhere nor is it implied that Kellhus has mastered the Gnosis. If you would like to assume so provide evidence.

As well, despite my opinions of him concerning his reasons, Drusas Achamian is searching for the Dûnyain. This is implies to me they have no small part to play in the future. I've, elsewhere, already speculated that Achamian may entreat another Dûnyain to enter the fray. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by DietCoke23, Commoner

&quot;Kellhus will find a fight against the Non men and the No God quite un winnable without the guidance of his teachers. but inturn they will denounce him for his mark.

they must have some power beyond the logos or the logos itself will prove most powerful of all.

as for his Sons and, I think that Akka must become a tutor to one of them who will ultimately bring the real war against the No God&quot;

i was under the impression that all of the other dunyain, other than kellhus, had killed themselves after recieving the dreams sent by Moenghus. Am i seriously mistaken here? view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

Not all the Dunyain, only those who recieved the dreams. Remember, in order to send those messages, Moenghus had to know exactly where those Dunyain slept. So this limits it to only the Dunyain who were full fledged Dunyain thirty years ago while Moenghus was still at Ishual. How many more have been raised to be a full Dunyain in those thirty years? And it was not made clear whether he contacted all the Dunyain from his years there, or just a select few. Probably just the Pragma, or a select few of the Pragma. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

As far as I can tell, the origins of the Dunyain are still a complete mystery. All we know is a little of their beliefs and through Kellus's memories, we know a bit about how they train their young (the part about the &quot;defectives&quot; was chilling).

Anyway, it doesn't seem we have definitive proof that the Dunyain were desperate stragglers of the Apocolypse or proof that they were displaced etc. Hopefully Akka's wonderings will clear some of that up. I'm certainly *very* interested in knowing their origins. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

Actually, in the first couple pages of the DTCB prologue, when the Dunyain first arrive at Ishual, &quot;Peering through dark embrasures, he saw a group of cadaverous men and women - refugees of the Apocalypse. Glimpsing his shadow, they cried out for food, shelter, anything, but the boy was too terrified to reply. Hardship had made them look fearsome - feral, like a wold people.&quot; view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Good point, Jamara. I'd completely forgotten about that passage.

But still, given what we know about the Dunyain and their deceptiveness, it does call to question what their true state was at that time. It's hard for me to imagine them being truely desperate, though I guess it's possible that their philosopy wasn't as refined at that time. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 01 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Quote: &quot;Jamara&quot;:yuw3xl2u
I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress.[/quote:yuw3xl2u]

Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the &quot;special line&quot; for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program.


Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood?

We know a lot about the Dunyain, but there's still so much we don't know... view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 01 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Incu-Pacifico&quot;:1xj76rt1
Quote: &quot;Jamara&quot;:1xj76rt1
I agree. As I was typing up the qoute, it came to me that what is described of the Dunyain is from the young boy's perspective. This is how he sees them. Which is how the Dunyain work. They could have cried out if it were the shortest path, a lie. Because the next sentence after what I quoted speaks of them scaling the walls. So they weren't haggard enough to prevent them from scaling the walls of a fortress.[/quote:1xj76rt1]

Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the &quot;special line&quot; for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program.


Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood?

We know a lot about the Dunyain, but there's still so much we don't know...[/quote:1xj76rt1]

From my interpretation of the Dunyain I wouldn't say that Kellhus' line was chosen as the &quot;special line&quot; however his line likely had more genetic benefits than others because of the Nonman ancestry and such. Also, I do not believe they had a selective breeding program from the start, I think in the beginning they were just a random non radical group of people who after experiencing the hardships and catastrophes of the Apocalypse decided to seal themselves off from the world and seek to accomplish their current goals. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 02 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Buckethead, Peralogue

Another interesting question is why was Kellus's line chosen as the &quot;special line&quot; for the Dunyain's selective breeding? Presumably they'd been around years before finding Ishual and had already started their selective breeding program.


Or maybe it was the case that Kellus's line of selective breeding was just one of many. Kellus's memory after all made reference to several other children. Did all these kids survive into adulthood?


I truly don't believe that the dunyain would risk sending moenghus out to investigate sranc tribes and becoming infected with the outside if he was of this &quot;special line&quot;. I t wouldn't make much sense if he was so valuable for breeding. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 02 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

Perhaps they saw his special-line as a protection against the outside world. Why not put your best out there rather than your least. If anyone can resist the world, it would be your best. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 02 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Buckethead, Peralogue

if your main purpose is to find enlightenment in solitary through breeding your best, i fail to see the logic in that. especially using your best as a scout, it's not like they sent him to destroy or conquer. any risk to your finest &quot;stud&quot; seems ludicrous if he is the best chance for enlightenment. view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 02 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Curethan, Didact

Why send anyone out 'scouting'? Escpecially if they would then very likely be considered 'contaminated' and defective... Hmm, mebe Mo was considered - expendable <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Kellhus's State of Mind posted 02 April 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus's State of Mind by Jamara, Auditor

They still had the baby Kellhus. view post


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