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Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 27 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by wmdragon, Commoner

why? why did Saubon go along with this? Kellhus' motives were clear, but what kind of justification was given to Saubon? why did he just take a stranger's word on such a premonition, one that asked him to punish the allegedly most pious soldiers and those closest to the Shriah himself? all of Kellhus manipulations of Saubon were based on his reading of him, but the Shrial Knights bit came out of left field. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 28 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Buckethead, Peralogue

when kellhus convinces saubon of this, he brings the look of dread to his own face as if he was as upset about it as saubon. add this to the fact that saubon so quickly convinces himself to the fact that kellhus on some level is communing with the god, and there you go. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 28 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by wmdragon, Commoner

yeah, I figured out it was a matter of pure awe - and perhaps some convenience:

Saubon: this guy who may be talking to God is telling me I'm can be grand & heroic, which is what I've always wanted. I'll do whatever he says, even if it doesnt make any sense.

still, it doesnt quite work for me. pretty much every manipulation Kellhus does is based on something real (a prejudice, a desire, a weakness, etc.), so that the person being manipulated sees the justification and value of what Kellhus is asking. that is the power of Kellhus, he nevers asks "do this just because I say so". except in this case, view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 28 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

I think that Kellhus is pretty damn sure of Saubon's loyalty to him almost from the very beginning. That is why he kind of goes out on a limb with his 'prophecy' and the thing with the Shrial knights.

(Note the following is a Spoiler for TWP and TTT . . . sorry but I need them to back up my point . . . so don't read on if you haven't finished either of those books, this thread isn't worth ruining the reading experience).




























I think this is also why he does not force Saubon to leave Caraskand and follow with the rest of the Holy War to Shimeh. Why would Kellhus allow this dissension of refusing to follow, probably because he was sure enough in Saubon that Saubon would feel shame and eventually show up, and probably as a great reserve unit (which he does). view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Buckethead, Peralogue

that is the power of Kellhus, he nevers asks "do this just because I say so". except in this case,


but he isn't saying this at all.

he is saying "do this because because the god says so" then most importantly, through his facial actions is saying "oh my god, how can this possibly be true?" which quite obviously saubon can relate to.

once agian saubon at this point quite literally believes kellhus speaks the word of god, which in his point of view should not be questioned (as you said, especially if the rest of it serves his purpose as well). view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

TfT Spoiler
**********

I think this is also why he does not force Saubon to leave Caraskand and follow with the rest of the Holy War to Shimeh. Why would Kellhus allow this dissension of refusing to follow, probably because he was sure enough in Saubon that Saubon would feel shame and eventually show up, and probably as a great reserve unit (which he does).


As for this, I believe Saubon and Kellhus planned it from the beginning to trap Conphas, not Saubon actually being shamed into it rather the entire thing was a trick to get Conphas in the end. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

TFT Spoiler*****************************************************


Warrior-Poet, your theory would hold with Cnaiur's idea that the entire thing was a set-up to take him out of the picture. It is entirely probable (inane to think otherwise) that Kellhus knew the Ikurei had a pact with the Fanim. The Fanim would have to play their hand to free Conphas. This would likely lead to Conphas confrunting the Holy War at Shimeh. So yes, I could see Saubon and Kellhus formulating this plot, especially since Saubon was one of his loyal followers from the beginning.
Very acute! Props to Man view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by wmdragon, Commoner

Quote: "Buckethead":1qeaj9d9
that is the power of Kellhus, he nevers asks "do this just because I say so". except in this case,


but he isn't saying this at all.

he is saying "do this because because the god says so" then most importantly, through his facial actions is saying "oh my god, how can this possibly be true?" which quite obviously saubon can relate to.[/quote:1qeaj9d9]

I should have phrased that better: Kellhus nevers asks "do this just because I or God or a holy book says so". he links his manipulations with desires, drives or weaknesses in the target person. I guess I didnt understand that Saubon was so willing to buy the Warrior-Prophet act so early in the story, to the point of going along with something that didnt play on his desires, and in fact was rather appaling, if not sacrilegious.




**** TTT SPOILER *****

interesting, though, that this "request from left field" did allow Saubon to fulfill his desire by giving him victory. Kellhus actually addresses this with Moenghus at the end, but Moenghus dismisses it as a Coincidence, if I recall correctly. could it be that the TTT was already expressing itself thru Kellhus that early? then again, the TTT is problably always manifesting itself in some way... view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 29 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: "wmdragon":1nowhap6
I guess I didnt understand that Saubon was so willing to buy the Warrior-Prophet act so early in the story, to the point of going along with something that didnt play on his desires, and in fact was rather appaling, if not sacrilegious.
[/quote:1nowhap6]

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Saubon was motivated by the want of glory. He wanted to be the first of the Holy War to enter Fanim lands and meet the enemy, and he was merely looking for justification from any source he could get it from. Kellhus was already becoming respected at this point, so he asked him, probably asking a select few others, and when he found his permission/justification, he took it and entered into Fanim lands.

Kellhus merely saw him as a tool to hurt the Shrial Knights. And he used him as thus. He told Saubo what he needed to hear in order to motivate him. I don't really know how Saubon felt about punishing the Shrial Knights.

But when the tides looked most grim for Saubon, the Cishaurim showing up, I think that he utterly believed that he must sacrifice the Shrial Knights to survive. He MUST punish them, just as Kellhus had said. And when he orders this punishment, and the assault succeeds, Saubon is left a true believer of Kellhus. Kellhus told him to enter Fanim territory and he would be victorious (and he was). Kellhus told him he had to punish the Shrial Knights (which he felt, in the end, he had to), and it was through this punishment that his victory was won. Just as Kellhus had predicted.

All of this cemented Saubon as a loyaltist to Kellhus. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 30 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Buckethead, Peralogue

TFT SPOILER!!!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

i think that kellhus' excitement at having his prediction come true is kind of silly.

first of all, at the time he could not use the logos to predict war or the fanim because he hadn't seen either... it was stated that all he could do was read the generals of the holy war, who mostly thought (especially saubon) that skauras would retreat and allow them to take mengaedda... so to the best of kellhus' knowledge victory was already the most likely scenario.

secondly he was vague. he never says that saubon will be victorious anywhere. i don't have the book on hand, but i believe he said something along the lines of "the land will be your whore". this is the type of thing that psycics use to convince you that they really did see into the future or the dead people you know... no details and it can be twisted to mean more than one thing.

also, saubon went hunting for kellhus so he must have thought his opinion was worthwhile (more than an excuse anyways). kellhus didn't have all that much pull within the holy war at this point anyways. if he failed, what was saubon going to say? "well that new guy told me to"? i think he was looking for assurances of his victory and confidence, not excuses to march. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 30 March 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Buckethead, Peralogue

I should have phrased that better: Kellhus nevers asks "do this just because I or God or a holy book says so". he links his manipulations with desires, drives or weaknesses in the target person.


no actually i'm pretty sure he does say "the god says this" or at least insinuates it, which coming from kellhus, is as good as saying it. he is using the god's voice to manipulate saubon as much as he is using his own. view post


Punishing the Shrial Knights posted 19 June 2007 in The Darkness That Comes BeforePunishing the Shrial Knights by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Saubon wants the love and admiration that he was denied by his tyrannical father. He thinks the way to get this is by military successes (remember that he once fought Conphas himself to stand still in battle) and by becoming king by his own hand. What he really wants is love and respect, but he has confused this in his own mind by becoming king (and thus being great and having love and respect).

This is why he is so close to his nephew (the son of his sister who used to protect him from his father), why the words of his groom are so devastating to him and how Kelhus is able to manipulate him so easily. Like most world born men, Saubon doesn't truly know himself. His actions in the Warrior-Prophet and The Thousandfold Thought are easily understood if you keep these traits in mind. view post


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