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"Murderous Children" posted 26 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

It mentioned this on the Amazon plot synopsis. Do you suppose it possibly refers to antagonism between Esmi's child and not-so-little Moenghus?

Both would be pretty formidable. Esmi's child would be half-Dunyain, and if Maithanet's any indication, then that type of genetic inheritance goes a long way. At the same time, as long as Moenghus didn't get too much of Serwe, he could be pretty formidable, like Cnaiur (who I'm pretty sure the father was). view post


"Murderous Children" posted 26 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by jude, Commoner

I can see Esmi's child being scary, but Moenghus, not matter how much of his father he got, is world-born. What made Cnaiur so dangerous was his exposure to Kellhus' father. Which isn't to say that Moenghus the smaller may not turn out to be one brutal fellow, but that he'll be a brutal fellow without the benefit of Dunyain breeding, and thus no kind of competition for Kellhus' real son.

that having been said, none of that takes into account whatever training they've received from kellhus, which perhaps makes up for Moenghus' lack of breeding. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 27 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Buckethead, Peralogue

a friend of mine theorized that kellhus took esmenet into his bed specifically because she appears to be the most cerebral woman he met in the three seas. if the dunyain are interested in breeding for cerebral purposes then she would be a better choice than anything else offered. of course there is the thought of: own esmenet = own achamian = get the gnosis. and what better way to gain ownership of emsi than to make her pregnant... but then why maintain your marriage twenty years later? we all know loyalty isn't one of kellhus' strong suits. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 27 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by anor277, Didact

Just regarding the "murderous children" snippet, Esmenet is "stepmother" to at least Moenghus (who arguably has no biological connection to Kellhus); she might be stepmother to several more of Kellhus children. In the intervening period Esmenet may have tolerated extended liasions between Kellhus and (suitably intelligent) world-born women.

Of course Kellhus (unlike Achamian) may have been faithful in all that time. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

Quote: "jude":2mtayf3b
I can see Esmi's child being scary, but Moenghus, not matter how much of his father he got, is world-born. What made Cnaiur so dangerous was his exposure to Kellhus' father. Which isn't to say that Moenghus the smaller may not turn out to be one brutal fellow, but that he'll be a brutal fellow without the benefit of Dunyain breeding, and thus no kind of competition for Kellhus' real son.

that having been said, none of that takes into account whatever training they've received from kellhus, which perhaps makes up for Moenghus' lack of breeding.[/quote:2mtayf3b]

Cnaiur, despite his insanity, was still a very formidable figher, and a very intelligent general. With proper training, although he'd be no dunyain, he'd still be a formidable person. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Remember that like in the real world Scott seems to have demonstrated that the abilities of the Dunyain are as much training as they are also their genetics. Genetics provides the potential, training builds that to be a weapon. I am sure a child of Kelhus who had suitable potential (and I think Moenghus likely has some potential at the least, Cnaiur himself certainly seemed to) would receive training... and be frightening indeed.

It has also been 20 years, I am sure there are more than the two children.

As for the Murderous comment... something tells me they are encouraged to struggle against both one another to practice their craft and to employ it in order to dominate the world born. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

Quote: "Buckethead":2qw5q934
a friend of mine theorized that kellhus took esmenet into his bed specifically because she appears to be the most cerebral woman he met in the three seas. if the dunyain are interested in breeding for cerebral purposes then she would be a better choice than anything else offered. of course there is the thought of: own esmenet = own achamian = get the gnosis. and what better way to gain ownership of emsi than to make her pregnant... but then why maintain your marriage twenty years later? we all know loyalty isn't one of kellhus' strong suits.[/quote:2qw5q934]

but for all khellus' dunyain-ness, he does appear to develop feelings for esminet later on in the third book, as he begins to see himself as a prophet. perhaps these feelings could turn into love?
in which case there would definatley be more that two children view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Curethan, Didact

Hmm, I think Cnaiur's child will be very much his genetic father's son. Look at it this way - he is eldest (heir apparent), aknowledged as Kellhus' child, but probably very aware of his lack of the inborn talents of the younger children. Also there would be the underlying awareness in people such as Esmenet of his true parentage and a certain expectation and subconcious 'encouragement' for him to mirror Cnaiur's personality. Add to this mix the likely unhealthy environment the children of the most powerful (and probably busiest) man in the world....

Well, did we really expect these kids to grow up to be cherubs? view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Nauticus, Auditor

It really seems the kids are becoming the focal point here. Moreso than the Consult. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Mithfânion, Didact

It really seems the kids are becoming the focal point here. Moreso than the Consult.


It doesn't seem that way to me from the synopsis.

There'll be different POV chapaters again. We'll have a focus on Kellhus going North in a great war effort against the Consult. Esmenet will give us focus on the children. Achamian has his own POV again no doubt. There may well be more. Perhaps one of the children will have his or her own pov. We expect to see more of the Nonmen, though they will not have a POV according to Scott, we will see more of them in AE. I do believe we would also see Zeum.

As for the children, I am really looking forwrad to this. I think Kellhus will have more than one child by Esmenet in that twenty year period. It's possible that he will also father children on other women. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Harrol, Moderator

I wonder what effect the possession of Esmi will have on her children. Remember how she threatened a soldier with flaying and then had to overcome strong urges to see it happen. This I believe came from her possession from Aurang. What effect would that have on her kids? view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Jamara, Auditor

Quote: "Harrol":1wj8tgnj
I wonder what effect the possession of Esmi will have on her children. Remember how she threatened a soldier with flaying and then had to overcome strong urges to see it happen. This I believe came from her possession from Aurang. What effect would that have on her kids?[/quote:1wj8tgnj]

Hmmm . . . She was pregnant at the time, was she not? That is a very interesting question. Part Dunyain with a little bit of Inchoroi presence in his/her soul. That would be scary! view post


"Murderous Children" posted 29 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

im not so sure that the desire for injury comes from the inchori possesion but her own internal bitterness. she is angry at the world for the way it was toward her, and she has subconcious desires for revenge view post


"Murderous Children" posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Quote: "Guardsman Bass":3lq63ojo
It mentioned this on the Amazon plot synopsis. Do you suppose it possibly refers to antagonism between Esmi's child and not-so-little Moenghus?

[/quote:3lq63ojo]

Absolutely. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 30 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Madness, Peralogue

Despite my love of writing and my absolute awe of Cû'jara Cinmoi's works, I've been finding it increasingly diffucult, as usual, to sit and post here on the three-seas forum. Tonight, assuming once again that my friday night does not barrel through my apartment door, I'm hoping to write a few posts concerning The Great Ordeal.

As always, I've been visiting the site regularly to read current threads. It's good to see an increase in posters speculating on active threads and resurrecting formerly dead ones that've incited them to write. Furthermore, it's good to see an increase of speculation, in specific, on The Great Ordeal and The Aspect-Emperor novels.

As I've maintained throughout my writings concerning The Great Ordeal, it's synopsis provides invaluable insights into the future of Eärwa. Combined with attention to detail and fact, the synopsis can provided innumerable truths concerning the state of Eärwa, 4132 Year-of-the-Tusk.

With no less import than any other excerpt from the synopsis, the details and implications of the "murderous children" must be speculated on.

Despite the quality, or lack of quality, of the arguments so far posted, all have missed the argument which can provide true insights into the personalities and subsequent relationships of "Kellhus's" children.

Again, as I've iterated before, all of Cû'jara Cinmoi's work possesses an ingenious weave which causes, as it has, an intermingling of speculations. All events are tied together and, as the Dûnyain maintain and as in the real world, what comes before determines what comes after.

To surmise how these children may grow or into what mold Cû'jara Cinmoi will cast them, we first must speculate on Anasûrimbor Kellhus.

It is written plainly in a number of Kellhus's narratives in The Warrior-Prophet and The Thousandfold Thought that, as Buckethead's friend theorized, Kellhus first manipulates Esmenet due to her personality and innate traits. Unlike most women throughout the Three Seas, Esmenet is intelligent and penetrating, capable of innumerable insights. Kellhus, whom in my opinion remains Dûnyain for the majority of the books, selects her as a breeding tool; a natural selection for one whom the stables of Ishuäl are inaccessible.

However, as I've maintained, I believe that at the end of The Thousandfold Thought Kellhus is becoming or has become deluged by emotions.

As we readers know throughout the novels there are several instances where Kellhus finds the darkness coming before. True emotions surface. Pity for Cnaiür, disgust due to Cnaiür harsh treatment of Serwë, and, most importantly, love for Esmenet.

Regardless of the overwhelmingly important question of the validity of Kellhus's prophetic status, I don't believe a man of emotions will raise his children as tools; as Moënghus the elder raised Maithanet.

I believe something many readers, subsequently speculators, fail to realize is that throughout The Prince of Nothing Anasûrimbor Kellhus walks conditioned ground. Despite what Kellhus's own possessions imply of Dûnyain power, he himself walks the grand design of another.

The Dûnyain Moënghus, whom I maintain remained Dûnyain despite his expulsion by the Pragma, orchestrates the entire movement of events throughout The Prince of Nothing, in order to see his son, Anasûrimbor Kellhus, a whole Dûnyain before him. Those of you who believe Maithanet was more, disillusion yourselves. He was a pawn and tool in Moënghus's grand design, nothing more.

Do not speculate on the children using Maithanet as a template, for without Moënghus's training, Maithanet would only have been a smart man.

In light of the above, I continue my assertions of "Kellhus's" children.

I reiterate I do not believe Kellhus remains Dûnyain. I believe in The Aspect-Emperor novels we will encounter an Anasûrimbor Kellhus whom has fallen victim to emotions. A kinder, gentler, and most assuredly wiser Kellhus. I believe it will be interesting, if speculations prove correct, to encounter a Man who was once Dûnyain.

There is an entire other half to speculations concerning the children, as some of you have mentioned already; Esmenet.

I do not share Curethan's belief that Esmenet knows of Moënghus's father. I do believe, however, that she will prove the more influential parent.

Furthermore, though Harrol's speculation, I believe, was a commentary on how Esmenet's possession would affect her parenting, I like Jamara's assertion that the Inchoroi presence could have affected Kellhus's firstborn as well.

Regarding the children themselves:

I do not believe that Moënghus's true parentage would make him inferior to any of Kellhus's children. Though Cnaiür's knowledge and insights of the Dûnyain were due to his interaction with Moënghus the elder, it was his abnormal Scylvendi intelligence that lead him to the insights at all. I maintain that Moënghus the younger would have little, if any, trouble keeping pace with his siblings should Kellhus train them.

I feel myself losing steam, at least concerning this thread, however, I'd like to add a quick note here at the end.

Though my original thought concerning the "murderous children" was that Moënghus and his sibling will prove to be a tag-team pair of hellraisers, I'm inclined to tip my hat at G. Bass and Incu-Pacifico; I can definitely imagine there being much antagonism between the sons especially in political arenas. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Curethan, Didact

I do not believe that Moënghus's true parentage would make him inferior to any of Kellhus's children.


Well, Cnaiur may have been exceptional - but I think the eugenics practiced by the Dunyain would outstrip the natural selection of the Sclyvendi, also Serwe would hardly be a candidate for the Dunyain breeding program.... and Kellhus' children have the blood of the nonmen in them... view post


"Murderous Children" posted 31 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Jamara, Auditor

I kind of agree that Esmi's child (or children) would be greater then little Moenghus, but I also agree that not by much. If Kellhus is training both equally, I think Moenghus would be a close second. Though I am not sure exactly what the benefits of having Non-Man ancestry are. However, upon reading this thread so far, I can't help but get the feeling that the over-all unspoken opinion is that Esmi's child is male. Now, I am not speaking from a physical prowess or mental prowess here, but how would the political dynamics between the two children work if Esmi's child is a girl?

We all know that Kellhus will probably try to equalize the sexes, but I think that transformation of biases takes a long time, at least a few generations. I mean, they don't even allow their women to read. Look how long it's taken American culture to come as far as it has. And that is only from allowing women to vote. A couple generations at the least. But definitely more than twenty years. Now the Aspect-Emperor may decree equality, so at least the Lords and Kings would have to outwardly respect his word, but that still makes the political ground very much in favor of Moenghus, whom the vast majority believe to be the first-born male heir of Kellhus. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 22 September 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by jhunter626, Commoner

I think that although kellhus' children will probably be like full dunyain they may not be as advanced as they don't have the full genes nor the proper training. It is also possible that there training isn't complete as it has not been specified how long dunyain training takes,although it'll probably be until there early teens.

In addition if Cnaiur has been preserved by the consult then it will be intersting to see how this will affect Moenghus.

Oh yeah, although Moenghus is Kellhus' heir apparent Kellhus has never played by the book and will make the child who is most capable take over. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 24 September 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Mysterious, Commoner

Overall I doubt there would be any significant difference between little Moenghus and Esmi's child(ren) ?? Though genetics may come into play we have already seen that Cnaiur's capabilities have been exceptional especially in the light that he has been essentially self taught. I also doubt there would be any significant differences between the children in the light that Moenghus Snr. trained Mathianet but was still forced to call Kellhus as he realised that his son was not up to the challenge.

Also on the question on equality between the sexes: Elizabeth of England ruled in an extremely patriarchial society before the invention of human rights even existed. There has also been various Female Leaders in Less developed nations e.g. Bangladesh, Pakistan etc. but there has not been a Female Leader in some of the most highly developed and liberal societies in the world e.g. France, USA, Australia etc.

So my conclusions are that it may not necessary for equality in society for there to be a female child to take the throne.


Mysterious view post


"Murderous Children" posted 24 September 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Shell, Peralogue

The "murderous children" caught my eye too, along with the fact that Kellhus and Esmi are still together after 20 years (I really hope Akka shows up slimmer, full head of hair with his trophy wife on arm, take that Esmi!)

First of all, Scott could've wrote "murderous child" and we would be pretty sure that was infant Moe. Obviously children implies more than one with homicidal tendencies - which I find strange as neither Kellhus or Esmi are particularily violent. Perhaps some genetic defect on Kellhus part since we are assuming he is rather inbred? Maybe its a twist and it is neither of these children...

Second, "murderous" implies a certain mindset. We know then that they are not scientists, musicians, merchants, statesmen or lawyers. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 16 October 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Israfel, Peralogue

Ok, I'm new here, but just thought I'd offer my two pence here. Apologies if it's a bit presumptive to jump in here...

If it had just been 'murderous child' I would actually have assumed it was Kellhus' child with Esmi, although it could be either, whether they've been trained in the ways of the Dunyain or not - They would have to be convinced of Kellhus' divinity to be of use to him (think Moe-elder and the rest of them being a danger - with Dunyain training they'd be in the same position), and indoctrinating them in his divine nature before they're conditioned would probably impede their conditioning, possibly making conditioning impossible. So I see them as probably limited to only being as competent as Maithenet if they're not to turn on Kellhus. However it turns out though I'm intrigued to see how the author will resolve that issue.

As a side point there, if they have some of the Dunyain ruthlessness, that could be at the heart of any antagonism between the two children, or at least fuel it. Perhaps doubts over Moe junior's parentage might give rise to thoughts from the younger one that Moe's not fit to carry on the mantle, not being a real Anasûrimbor and/or not quite as competent...

I'm not sure I'd agree with Madness that Kellhus will be softened and made wiser by his emotions. Remember that emotions aren't all soft and cuddly... And even people whose emotions are strong can be cold and ruthless in pursuing the goals their emotions dictate. Do you think Kellhus would pass up a greater chance to defeat the No-God by not using his children at all?

I actually incline towards the opinion of Moënghus (elder) - that Kellhus is actually mad, in one way or another. Given Kellhus' difficulties in predicting Cnaiür's actions due to his madness, it would be a way of standing outside the Dunyain's predictive ability while still being deluded into thinking he'd found an expanded Thousandfold Thought including himself as divinely inspired that placed him outside of the Dunyain's predictions and made him something more.

However, I'm definitely with Mysterious and others on the capabilities being fairly close - as has been stated, once freed from Scylvendi traditions Cnaiur's (self-taught) intelligence and perception was astounding, and his reflexes startled Kellhus. So while the Dunyain blood may give the natural child the edge, I'd say Moe jnr isn't going to be very far behind... view post


"Murderous Children" posted 27 October 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Kessriga, Commoner

New here as well but I wanted to add the theory that maybe Kellhus had children before he left the Dunyain. Moenghus certainly did and I can't see the Dunyain letting Kellhus, who was a prodigy among them, go without leaving them with something they could use to further their mission. It seems that whatever the outcome of Kellhus' mission when he left there was little chance of him being allowed back in to contaminate them. I know if I was running that place I wouldn't let genetic stock like that leave without some insurance. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 28 October 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Shell, Peralogue

Kessriga,

Good point. Here we are all assuming that the "murderous children" are those out in the world, not those who may exist and were left behind. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 30 October 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Kessriga, Commoner

I just wanted to throw that idea in there as well rather than start another entire thread for something similar. view post


"Murderous Children" posted 21 December 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]"Murderous Children" by Hear Me Roar, Candidate

I think it is a bit unfair to assume that Serwe's genetics would predisposition her offspring to be unworthy. Yes, her character is nothing compared to Esmenet and Cnaiur intellectually, but she came from such a different background than they do, it could be that her intelligence was never cultivated. view post


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