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Chorae, Consults and Salts. (Or "A Boy and His Bird) posted 14 Feb 2007, 03:02 by RazorSmile, Candidate

In the final pages of [i:2vp80l1f]TTT[/i:2vp80l1f], there's a seemingly throwaway scene where a street urchin runs into a Choraed Schoolman (be he Scarlet or Cishaurim I doubt is relevant). Being an opportunisitic little so and so, he scrapes some of the salt off "that oughta go for a few bucks on the street, eh?" and makes to leave, only to be interrupted by a Consult entity. I find it hard to believe that this was irrelevant, which raises all kinds of questions: a) Is the salt from Chorae-dead Sorcerers useful for more than just culinary purposes? b) Why [b:2vp80l1f][i:2vp80l1f]do[/i:2vp80l1f] [/b:2vp80l1f] the Choarae turn Sorcerers to salt anyway? Do they suck in their Souls? Destory them? Kick them back to the afterlife? Are all the Chorae connected together by an invisible magic web? c) Who is the boy? Is he the one whose friend got kidnapped by a slaver during Maithanet's procession? If so, does this mean he's going to be a major character in Aspect-Emperor? d) What does the Bird want with him? Again, is he special or did it just need a target to sharpen its claws on? Is it going to possess him like the Inchoroi being did Esmanet and use him long-term? Etc. etc. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 13:02 by Harrol, Moderator

Well to reply A. I do not have an answer. B. I do not have enough information yet, either that or I do not understand what Scott is saying. C.No it is a different boy the firsy one is inrithy the second is most likely Fanim. Too answer the rest we do not know enough yet. D. Great speculation but again not enough info. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 13:02 by RazorSmile, Candidate

In the Bible, Lot's wife was turned to salt because she looked back at the destruction of her city after being specifically told by God not to. Given the Inri/Jesus obviousness, that can't be a coincidence. [quote:fqyg9joi]not enough info[/quote:fqyg9joi] Awww, but that's no fun :twisted: we must not just speculate, but do so [i:fqyg9joi]rampantly[/i:fqyg9joi]! The need exists. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Harrol, Moderator

True Razor we do need that. So post away I look forward to reading it. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 23:02 by Curethan, Didact

Yeh, that scene was just creepy. A final juxtaposition between innocence and the depravity embodied by the consult, with the 'proof' of the sorcerer's damnation in between, and the mystery of the chorae (the tears of god) as well. I believe that the child here is a throw away character, the scene is functionally included to show the consult collecting chorae after the battle. The chorae, to me, are a weapon/tool of the consult. view post


posted 14 Feb 2007, 23:02 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

What your question should be is what is the secret that Aurang is speaking of, unless of course he was just trying to lure the kid away but when have any of the scenes in the books been so simple. view post


posted 15 Feb 2007, 00:02 by RazorSmile, Candidate

[quote="Harrol":2lqg7g3b]True Razor we do need that. So post away I look forward to reading it.[/quote:2lqg7g3b] Alright, just remember you asked for it :twisted: [i:2lqg7g3b]*rubs hands together*[/i:2lqg7g3b] Okay. Why did Lot's wife turn to salt? She disobeyed the instructions of the God - she went [i:2lqg7g3b]against[/i:2lqg7g3b] the God and was punished accordingly. So. The Chorae. They were forged by lost Nonmen-level Gnosis, yes? We don't know how, just that they were. I'm willing to bet they're indestructible and rust-proof. They kill Sorcerers by turning them to salt. Interestingly, the more powerful the Sorcerer, the more vulnerable to Chorae. Okay. So let's look at Sorcery. Sorcery, apparently, is the use of Word and Will to forcibly reshape reality - speaking what the God speaks and feeling what the God feels, just for a moment, just long enough to do something spectacular. Limitations of intellect (and vocal cords - hmm, [i:2lqg7g3b]that[/i:2lqg7g3b] gives me an idea* ...) mean that destruction, defense, Communication and Compulsion are pretty much the easiest (and, until Kellhus, only) things you can do with it. My working theory is that Kellhus, as with many other things, is right about The God being the collective Souls of every Souled being on Earwa. The Few are people whose Souls are somewhat more ... connected to the fabric of reality than others. Chorae however have no effect on them until they become Marked. So the Chorae are antithetical to Sorcery itself, not to the Few. If this is the case, then [i:2lqg7g3b]what happens to the Souls of Chorae-slain Sorcerers[/i:2lqg7g3b]? 1a) They are sucked into the Chorae and held there individually. Each Chorae contains every Soul of every Sorcerer it has ever killed. 1b) They are sucked into the Chorae - which are, unbeknownst to us all, networked together and collectively storing the Sorcerous Souls in the same space. 2) The Chorae are really gateways to the Outside. 3) Their Souls are forced into material proximity with their flesh. Flesh cannot withstand the gaze of Soul so it is turned to salt. Chorae-slain Sorcerers are not dead, but trapped within their salty carcass. 4) Sorcerers are evil (or at least, abominable to the God) and the Chorae are the representation of the God's displeasure. 5) Nothing. They go whereever dead folks go. That's all I've got so far. *[size=75:2lqg7g3b]if the Consult has figured out they can - even accidentally - make skin-spies with Souls i.e. skin-spies what can use Sorcery, what's to stop them giving all their skin-spies upgraded vocal cords? They might only be able to make single inutterals, but they could do multiiple [b:2lqg7g3b][i:2lqg7g3b]utterals[/i:2lqg7g3b][/b:2lqg7g3b] :idea: :lol: Put that together with their superior speed and that oughta be enough to give even Kellhus a serious run for his money in the spellslinging department.[/size:2lqg7g3b] view post


posted 15 Feb 2007, 06:02 by Curethan, Didact

Neat. I like idea 1a and b, it ties into my theory of why there are chorae studded onto the carapace of the no-god. It would be rather difficult for a wielder of the gnosis to create something like the chorae unaided if you think about it. For this reason I tend to believe that they were created by the non-men working together with the inchorai at some time in the distant past and are both tools and weapons. And in the hands of mundane men they have been exceptionally effective at carrying out the consult's desires without them revealing themselves in the slightest. Could this be the secret that Aurang refers to? view post


posted 15 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I just felt I should post what we do know about Chorae and their making from the books. The Chorae where created by Nonmen who practiced the Aporos, which I assume branched off of Gnostic Sorcery but is distinct from it. Thus there are three types of Sorcery that we know of: Gnostic, Anagogic, and the Aporos. The Aporos does not rely on analogy like Anagogic sorcery, instead it turns on contradiction. Contradiction is the hinge of the Aporos which is why the Nonmen banned it, it was very, very different and very dangerous. One can think of Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery as being say like matter and the Aporos as being like anti-matter which is why they cancel one another out the way they do. The Aporos contradicts and thus nullifies sorcery. When the Aporos was banned the Consult took in the Nonmen practitioners and thus commissioned the creation of the Chorae. These details come from the books, the TTT glossary, and from Scott in the Q&A board. view post


posted 15 Feb 2007, 22:02 by RazorSmile, Candidate

Argh, the Aporos of course! Well, that shuts down about half of my thinkwank session rather handily. The questions that still remain are a) whether the salt is special or just your standard issue NaCl AND b) whether the victims are Outside, dead, bound to the salt or locked in the Chorae. view post


posted 16 Feb 2007, 00:02 by anor277, Didact

[quote="RazorSmile":2e3oojoq]Argh, the Aporos of course! Well, that shuts down about half of my thinkwank session rather handily. The questions that still remain are a) whether the salt is special or just your standard issue NaCl AND b) whether the victims are Outside, dead, bound to the salt or locked in the Chorae.[/quote:2e3oojoq] Must be standard natrium chloride. If they were lithium salts, they'd use it to treat Cnaiur; and magnesium salts would have them all running to the toilet. As to the fate of those sorcerors struck down by chorae, there have been some good suggestions, but who am I to speculate? view post


posted 16 Feb 2007, 11:02 by Curethan, Didact

Natrium chloride? Surely you meant natruim chloratum.... :shock: I wonder if u knobbed the skinspy with sorcerous powers with a chorae, would he turn into pepper? The fact that the boy is collecting the salt and believes it will make him rich leads one to believe that the salt is either special and can be identified as the remains of a sorceror and has uses beyond the norm, or that salt is a valuable commodity in and of itself in Earwa - Roman soldiers were paid in salt as I recall. It's interesting the effect that the chorae had on Moenghus as opposed to sorcerors struck by them.... view post


posted 17 Feb 2007, 01:02 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think the salt is just salt, Like has been said in the ancient world salt was a valuable commodity. Given the way Scott likes being as historically accurate as he can in a fantasy series that takes place in a different reality it wouldn't surprise me for that to be the angle. As to what happens to the Sorcerers my vote is on dead. The Aporos does the same thing to them as it does to sorcery, well sort of anyway, they are undone. Trapping them in the Chorae seems well, just doesn't seem like Scott's style to me. view post


posted 06 Mar 2007, 22:03 by Holsety, Candidate

[quote="Entropic_existence":1d1zr5on]I just felt I should post what we do know about Chorae and their making from the books. The Chorae where created by Nonmen who practiced the Aporos, which I assume branched off of Gnostic Sorcery but is distinct from it. Thus there are three types of Sorcery that we know of: Gnostic, Anagogic, and the Aporos. The Aporos does not rely on analogy like Anagogic sorcery, instead it turns on contradiction. Contradiction is the hinge of the Aporos which is why the Nonmen banned it, it was very, very different and very dangerous. One can think of Gnostic and Anagogic sorcery as being say like matter and the Aporos as being like anti-matter which is why they cancel one another out the way they do. The Aporos contradicts and thus nullifies sorcery. When the Aporos was banned the Consult took in the Nonmen practitioners and thus commissioned the creation of the Chorae. These details come from the books, the TTT glossary, and from Scott in the Q&A board.[/quote:1d1zr5on] Hmm. So does this mean that chorae are like balls of anti-magic? That's weird. In one of the Sessa dreams, it's revealed that Nonmen sorcs tend to have larger marks of sorcery that cause them to be killed if they come to close to a chorae, let alone touch it. One would think that, like matter and antimatter, you'd need an equivalent amount of antimatter to just straight cancel out the matter (at least I think that's how it works) and that the more matter, or magic, the less effect the chorae would have. Ok, but maybe chorae are just analogous to antimatter in some ways, but not as closely as most stuff (like say positive and negative charge = matter and antimatter), and I'm just over-analyzing. Alright, it's a little more firm than a maybe...OK SHUT UP SELF! view post


posted 10 Jul 2007, 15:07 by Dave-grota Sranchammer, Commoner

Hey, not to throw things into confusion, but the creation of the Chorae was influenced by the Inchoroi (those mysterious demon-aliens). In the glossary, in the Cuni-Inchoroi Wars entry, it mentions that the Non-men who were staying with the Inchoroi were "poisoned by knowledge" and then created the Chorae, using their Aporos, to "render their masters immune to Cunuroi magic." I think that the Non-men used their Aporos, which was already a taboo art, but added a sprinkling of Inchoroi Tekne to the mix. The Chorae are, ironically, things of magic, but through the Aporos, completely contradict magic. I say this is, in part, due to the Inchoroi influence. However, some of the previous entries in this thread describe Aporos as fully capable of meeting these ends with no help from Tekne. I just think that the Inchoroi connection should not be underestimated or worse yet, completely ignored. Remember, the Non-God, who's sarcophagus was covered in Chorae, was trying to close the world from the Outside, an idea that would be only too pleasing to the Inchoroi. I merely bring up this point in hopes that it helps someone else reach a more definite conclusion. view post


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