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Just finished a re-read... posted 29 Jan 2007, 22:01 by Phil, Candidate

...and I have some questions. I had a look to see if they've been answered before, but couldn't search everything in here. Any insight would be helpful - I expect that these questions are easily answered by those who are more familiar with the series. 1. Chepharamunni was a skin-spy (we find this out at the end of tWP). Didn't Kellhus [i:3bikw8xn]ever[/i:3bikw8xn] meet Chepharamunni? I got the impression that Kellhus didn't meet Eleazarus until he was on the Circumfix, which kind of implies that he didn't meet Chepharamunni... but that's just a little unlikely, no? I mean, out of all those councils of the Greater and Lesser names, they never met? 2. Why didn't the Ciphrang kill Achamian at the end of the TTT? I know Iyokus wanted it to take an eye for an eye, but it didn't actually take his eyes, did it? I mean, it didn't really do [i:3bikw8xn]anything[/i:3bikw8xn] permanent. I know it kicked his arse, but it didn't do much else. 3. Aurax and Aurang. Right... I appologise in advance if I've got them the wrong way round. For most of the series, we only see Aurang. At some point in TTT we know that Aurang's true body is in Golgotterath, surrounded by the Mangaecca, and the synthese is just a projection, or something like that. But Esmenet is raped by Aurang, no? And he has a very different body, a much more powerful one, so why didn't he use that body all the time? I'm sure there's another example of this later on, too. The other thing I wanted to ask, about Aurax, is... in the very end scene of tWP when we see one of them raping the northmen and their families, asking, "Who are the Dunyain?"... is this Aurax? Or is it still Aurang? Do we ever see Aurax? I kind of got the impression that since the one in that scene always referred to himself in the third person, and Aurang doesn't in any other scenes, it was probaly Aurax. view post


Re: Just finished a re-read... posted 29 Jan 2007, 23:01 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Phil":3cqwnt7g]... 1. Chepharamunni was a skin-spy (we find this out at the end of tWP). Didn't Kellhus [i:3cqwnt7g]ever[/i:3cqwnt7g] meet Chepharamunni? I got the impression that Kellhus didn't meet Eleazarus until he was on the Circumfix, which kind of implies that he didn't meet Chepharamunni... but that's just a little unlikely, no? I mean, out of all those councils of the Greater and Lesser names, they never met? [/quote:3cqwnt7g] Kellhus met "Cheparamunni" at his first meeting with the then Nansur emperor (whose name I forget); the point was made, however, that the Ainoni potentate was masked in the Ainoni fashion. Therefore, Kellhus could not reasonably have divined that "Cheparamunni" was anything extraordinary; he did unmask Skauras(? - eta, that is the wrong individual, some other name), the Nansur vizier, at that same meeting. It was mentioned in WP that Kellhus had identified several skin spies in both high and low stations during the march to Shimeh. [quote:3cqwnt7g] 2. Why didn't the Ciphrang kill Achamian at the end of the TTT? I know Iyokus wanted it to take an eye for an eye, but it didn't actually take his eyes, did it? I mean, it didn't really do [i:3cqwnt7g]anything[/i:3cqwnt7g] permanent. I know it kicked his arse, but it didn't do much else.[/quote:3cqwnt7g] It might have been Iyokus' forbearance, i.e. the Ciphrang was under a guise simply to take an eye. Just rereading what you wrote (good idea!), from my reading of that encounter, the Ciphrang actually maimed Achamian by plucking out his eye. Maybe Achamian had inflicted sufficient damage on it to prevent it taking his remaining eye. [quote:3cqwnt7g] 3. Aurax and Aurang. Right... I appologise in advance if I've got them the wrong way round. For most of the series, we only see Aurang. At some point in TTT we know that Aurang's true body is in Golgotterath, surrounded by the Mangaecca, and the synthese is just a projection, or something like that. But Esmenet is raped by Aurang, no? And he has a very different body, a much more powerful one, so why didn't he use that body all the time? I'm sure there's another example of this later on, too. [/quote:3cqwnt7g] Aurang, I think, was the Inchoroi synthese, the birdman, whose soul or atman or whatever had apparently been bound to the bird form. From what Scott has said elsewhere, when Aurang was giving Esmenet a good seeing-to, his body was an illusion. [quote:3cqwnt7g] The other thing I wanted to ask, about Aurax, is... in the very end scene of tWP when we see one of them raping the northmen and their families, asking, "Who are the Dunyain?"... is this Aurax? Or is it still Aurang? Do we ever see Aurax? I kind of got the impression that since the one in that scene always referred to himself in the third person, and Aurang doesn't in any other scenes, it was probaly Aurax.[/quote:3cqwnt7g] That was my conclusion as well. The Inchoroi in question was Aurax, who had preserved (or at least maintained) his monstrous appearance by grafting successive parts onto his body. [i:3cqwnt7g] edited for an error[/i:3cqwnt7g] view post


posted 30 Jan 2007, 20:01 by Phil, Candidate

Cheers for the reply :) As for the eye thing, you're right that something is mentioned of Achamian only being able to open one eye, but since it's really not mentioned much again (that I can remember), I kind of assumed he was just beaten-up, not that he'd lost an eye. I'd have thought he'd have made a much bigger deal of it than he did. He seemed much more concerned with his leg than his eye. But I'm sure you're right. The guy that Kellhus "unmasked" in tDtCB was Skeos, btw :) Cheers again! view post


posted 30 Jan 2007, 23:01 by anor277, Didact

@Phil; yes, you are right, it was Skaeos whose identity Kellhus compromised at that first meeting. It is ironic that the Nansur were (for once) able to read Kellhus and then act to unmask this first skin-spy. Of course they drew completely the wrong conclusions: why should Kellhus recognize or react to a skin spy if he (K) were in league with the skin-spies? Yet this was precisely the conclusion the Nansur drew: i.e. skin-spies were creatures of the Cishaurim, therefore Kellhus was an agent of the Cishaurim (ironic again, that Kellhus [i:rc88mdgr]was[/i:rc88mdgr] actually in league with the Cishaurim, or at least a faction of the same). Anyway, regarding Aurang's illusory body there is are old threads somewhere around speculating on the incident, both here and in Scott's "ask the author" section. What is significant on rereading the passage in the novel is that Esmenet, after being shagged senseless, heard the "flap of wings" departing. The birdman Aurang, had somehow conjured an (illusory?) body, used it on the job, and then flew off in his actual form. view post


posted 01 Feb 2007, 21:02 by Phil, Candidate

Aye, sounds about right. Reading that passage, I had come to the conclusion that the flap of wings was from Aurang's actual form, not the synthese form. I'm fairly sure he and Aurax have wings in their grafted/Inchoroi forms. Either that, or I'm wrong :) view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 05:04 by Buckethead, Peralogue

it does mention achamian's eyes again after the fight with the ciphrang. in the last chapter, while staring into a tidepool he looks at his reflection noticing " the dark, smallish eyes," (plural) "the beard clinbing high on his cheeks..." etc. so it would appear that both of his eyes remain intact... view post


posted 02 Apr 2007, 16:04 by Celestial Ram, Commoner

In the last second Achamian made a Skin ward which is, according to the glossary , the last line of defense. What annoyed him was that despite this he still managed to hurt his leg. Maybe Ikoyus just wanted to terrifiy him rather than take his eyes. Sort of like demonstarting his power. view post


posted 29 May 2007, 12:05 by amodman, Commoner

No, I'm sure Iyokus definitely wanted Achamian dead, or blinded. I was pretty certain that, whatever happened, it was just a climactic Sorcerous battle with the beast, and Achamian somehow came out successful. He was probably consumed with the spirit of Seswatha at the time, besides blacking out and picked up by local Fanim. view post


posted 30 May 2007, 05:05 by Jamara, Auditor

I had always assumed that Achamian survived because of the Skin Ward, proving once again just how powerful the gnosis is. However, I had not thought about him being consumed by Seswatha again. It's plausible, but I think there would have been a bigger show of it. I think it was just that the Gnosis's last line of defense is pretty damn strong. Iyokus definately wanted at least an eye, yet his power was still lesser than Gnosis. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 15:06 by Phil, Candidate

I remember another thing I wanted to ask, but forgot. Either in TDTCB or TWP (can't remember which), Akka comments that Kellhus is not one of the few, and so he doesn't need to worry about whether or not to teach him sorcery. Obviously, that gets overturned later on. So, what's the deal with this? Surely Akka would have seen straight away if Kellhus was one of the few. After all, they can see it in kids. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 15:06 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="Phil":219hg30g]I remember another thing I wanted to ask, but forgot. Either in TDTCB or TWP (can't remember which), Akka comments that Kellhus is not one of the few, and so he doesn't need to worry about whether or not to teach him sorcery. Obviously, that gets overturned later on. So, what's the deal with this? Surely Akka would have seen straight away if Kellhus was one of the few. After all, they can see it in kids.[/quote:219hg30g] I think you might be referring to when Akk was considering how he might not even need to worry about it if Kellhus was not of the Few. However, I believe he tested Kellhus with the Wathi doll and found that he did need to worry. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 18:06 by Phil, Candidate

I'm pretty sure that prior to this, probably in Darkness, he remarks that Kellhus was [i:15qwa5ki]not[/i:15qwa5ki] one of the few. It stuck in my head because I already knew the final outcome. I won't have access to the books for a week or so, so can't go searching. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 19:06 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote="Phil":28tg4bfs]I'm pretty sure that prior to this, probably in Darkness, he remarks that Kellhus was [i:28tg4bfs]not[/i:28tg4bfs] one of the few. It stuck in my head because I already knew the final outcome. I won't have access to the books for a week or so, so can't go searching.[/quote:28tg4bfs] Hmmm I'll have to check on that. view post


posted 19 Jun 2007, 19:06 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

The presumption I made on the matter of 'detecting' the Few is that it takes a special sensitivity. Not to suggest that Akka couldn't have such a sensitivity but that it's a part of the training of the "*Pederesk" to develop this sensitivity to the existence of the Few so that they can detect Potentials. Akka didn't notice that Kellhus was one of the Few because he wasn't trained to be a Pederesk and as such his sensitivity to the Few hasn't been developed. He did however notice [i:26i0wbl7]something[/i:26i0wbl7] about Maithanet while he was in Sumna, but Maithanet exposed himself prematurely by letting Akka know that he could see that Akka was a sorcerer. Whether or not Akka would have realized Maithanet was one of the Few without the Shriah saying anything is what I've always wondered. *The Pederesk are schoolmen assinged by the Mandate to discover the Few within Nron. On the matter of Iyokus's last conjuring: The 'eye for an eye' thing shouldn't be taken literally. Iyokus didn't want Akka's eye, he wanted Akka. The demon was supposed to disable the sorcerer and return him to Iyokus for... round-two of his torture in Iothiah. Akka was badly beaten, hence the swollen eye, but ultimately his leg was the only injury that concerned him once he recovered from the Fever. Oh, and I hadn't considered the Seswatha consumation thing. I don't think it happened. Seswatha's only known purpose is to protect the Gnosis, not fight his followers' battles. I don't think Akka's destruction of the Sareotic Library was Seswatha either; just a pissed-beyond-comprehension Akka. view post


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