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The Aspect-Emperor posted 19 January 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

As the old topic started by Madness was accidently deleted, as some of you should already know, I have recreated the topic in hopes that active posters will again write their speculations once more on the upcoming book. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 29 January 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

If your wondering about predictions for the next book, I have one. I have a hunch that the Seswatha dreams will change and that the past may possibly be changed throwing the Dunyain ideas of the logos into chaos. Just a thought. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 29 January 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Phil, Candidate

This is not so much a prediction as a request, but...

Give us more of the Nonmen! We know there are still some left, and we know that the Consult knows pretty much everything that happens in Ishteberinth (or whichever mansion it is), so let's see them <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

PS - I think that Akka's dream changed because Kellhus hypnotised him. I know he dreamt after that and did not notice any differences, but I get the idea that he did not dream the actual &quot;fall of the No-God dream,&quot; which may be the only one that changed. Kellhus has done something to him, I predict.

Either way, I can't wait for the next series <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Screw the sci-fi book, give me more of this! One of the best series I have ever read.

Ooh, and I also think that Kellhus will become the No-God at some point, for reasons I've stated elsewhere. On the re-read, I noticed that the words &quot;WHAT DO YOU SEE?&quot; are repeated many times throughout the series, often by Cnaiur thinking it of Kellhus. Also somewhere else where someone thinks that of the God when a sorceror is speaking cants, sorry that I can't be more specific. Kellhus, the God, the No-God. Too many links, imo. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 31 January 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

The hypnotizing theory is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. I completely forgot about the fact that Kellhus has communed with Seswatha directly. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->
I'm not convinced that Kellhus will become the No-God, but I do think another clue to support your prediction could be seen the final battle with the Cishuarim. Kellhus himself becomes the vortex of a whirlwind to protect himself from the Chorae of the Fanim. A tactic learned from the No-God perhaps? view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 31 January 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Whiskeyjack&quot;:sbyo54ly
The hypnotizing theory is a good one, I hadn't even thought of that before, but it makes perfect sense. I completely forgot about the fact that Kellhus has communed with Seswatha directly. <!-- s:? --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_confused.gif" alt=":?" title="Confused" /><!-- s:? -->
I'm not convinced that Kellhus will become the No-God, but I do think another clue to support your prediction could be seen the final battle with the Cishuarim. Kellhus himself becomes the vortex of a whirlwind to protect himself from the Chorae of the Fanim. A tactic learned from the No-God perhaps?[/quote:sbyo54ly]

Did he commune with Seswatha, or with Achamian's subconscious (and removed whatever blocks Mandate conditioning had put there?)? Kellhus, the master of conditioning, surely knew what steps to take. From the glossary we know of only the one sorceror that transcended death, and it was Shauriatas not Seswatha. Seswatha took extraordinary steps that his mission would survive his death, but for mine it's wrong to refer to him as a living being.

Like you, I am also not sold on the idea that Kellhus could become the No-God, even despite the vortex at Shimeh and Kellhus' brilliant baiting of Aurang, &quot;the No-God, he speaks to me in my dreams, he says you abandoned him on the plains of Mengedda&quot; (that is paraphrased). Kellhus, for all his lack of morality, is human, and he is learning to be more human. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

I still think it could have been Seswatha that he communed with. The ceremony allowing the madate schoolmen to become accompllished casters requires a mummified body part, prob. of Seswatha. Seswatha is prob. floating around in some sort of outside realm as some sort of demi-god, the Mandate scoolmen being his contact to the world.
Or not. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by U-Boat, Commoner

I think Kellhus will become anti-mankind in the Aspect Emperor. And his son by Esmi, who will be 18-19, and the young Moenghus will play big roles, I think.

And wishful thinking tells me Akka will save the day. <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I still think it could have been Seswatha that he communed with. The ceremony allowing the madate schoolmen to become accompllished casters requires a mummified body part, prob. of Seswatha. Seswatha is prob. floating around in some sort of outside realm as some sort of demi-god, the Mandate scoolmen being his contact to the world.
Or not.


The ceremony involves the potential Mandate Schoolmen to touch Seswatha's heart afterwhich they have the Dreams. The touching of the heart has no factor on them becoming accomplished casters, the touching of the heart is mainly to show the horrors of the Apocalypse and prevent the Second Apocalypse from happening and allows Mandate Schoolmen to go under extreme torture without giving any information, as seen in WP with Akka. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

Touching of the mummified heart of Seswatha may allow for more than just the dreams though. This is world of magic, and as such one must be ready to allow for possibilities like Seswatha's continued existence. He may yet be around in some other-worldly form.
The touching of the heart is a ceremony which gains the initiate the right to learn the greater incantations of the school. So in effect it does play a factor for becoming an accomplished caster. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Phil, Candidate

I'm not so sure that Seswatha himself is floating around inside Achamian, but I am sure that a part of Achamian's subconscious is convinced that it is Seswatha. Which to all intents and purposes here, that's pretty much all that counts.

So if Kellhus can convince the part of Akka that thinks it is Seswatha that he should be allowed the Gnosis... what's to stop him doing all sorts of things to &quot;Seswatha,&quot; like changing the dreams or altering &quot;his&quot; memories. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 01 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Touching of the mummified heart of Seswatha may allow for more than just the dreams though. This is world of magic, and as such one must be ready to allow for possibilities like Seswatha's continued existence. He may yet be around in some other-worldly form.
The touching of the heart is a ceremony which gains the initiate the right to learn the greater incantations of the school. So in effect it does play a factor for becoming an accomplished caster.


A part of Sewatha lives through all Mandate Schoolmen I dont really think he exists in an otherworldly form as youmay be describing but rather lives through Mandate Schoolmen, and when I said earlier that the ceremony has no effect on an initiate becoming an accomplished caster I meant more in the form that the touching of the heart has no direct effect on an initiates casting ability, but the way you said it originally led me to believe you thought the touching of the heart made them better casters not allowed them to continue their training, if I knew thats what you meant originally I wouldn't have said anything. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 02 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Whiskeyjack, Candidate

Yes, I concede that Seswatha may not exist in an otherworldy form, but through the Mandate Schoolmen. I do think that there is still some magic at work between the Seswatha of the past and the Schoolmen of the present. I hold to my prediction that Kellhus will find an error in the Logos, in the face of a realization that what comes after may influence what comes before. In other words he may actually be trapped in the thrall of prohecy.
As for the argument that the glossary gives a date of death for Seswatha as evidence that he is no longer around, and that Shauriatas is the only Sorceror to have gained immortality, I argue that a good writer can lead his audience astray with clever deceptions in his glossary. Erickson does it in his books, and we know that Scott is a fan of Erickson's series. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 03 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

My thanks to Warrior-Poet for reposting this thread though unfortunately not in it's original state. Some things, however, cannot be helped.

I initially posted this thread with the hope that it would draw engaged speculators who would share in my goal of discerning the state of events in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor. I wrote with the aspiration of providing a solid factual foundation for speculation towards this goal. My ambition remains the same this second time posting with the further aspiration of providing a more in depth and developed base.

To begin, once again, the original quote by Cû'jara Cinmoi that I feel more speculators need to take to heart in their Aspect-Emperor speculations.

All I can say is that AE will put the whole world into play. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: -->


In the same thread from which I draw this quote Mr. Bakker writes that he intended to design the Thousandfold Thought glossary to be as much that as a teaser for the next instalments of Eärwa. Many of the building blocks in our foundation will then, obviously, be drawn from the glossary with the hope that we can piece together the small, and intentionally vague, facts Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with at the end of The Thousandfold Thought into the larger puzzle that will be The Aspect-Emperor series.

As I intend this to serve as our speculative basis I beg any reader who finds contradiction to what I present as fact or speculation to post. I want there to be consensus in what is written in this thread to aid us in our goal. I truly do believe and hope, however impossible it may seem, that we can discern at least some truths of The Aspect-Emperor before ever being engulfed by Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew.

The following I present to you as fact and, I believe, intelligent reasoning. A basis for our own probability trance as it were.

The Five Tribes of Men:

The Ketyai: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, dark-skinned. Predominant about the Three Seas.
The Norsirai: Typically blond-haired, blue-eyed, fair-skinned. Predominant along the northern fringes of the Three Seas.
The Satyothi: Typically black-haired, green-eyed, black-skinned. Predominant in the nation of Zeüm and southern extremities of the Three Seas.
The Scylvendi: Typically dark-haired, pale-blue-eyed, and fair-skinned. Predominant in and around the Jiünati Steppe.
The Xiuhianni: Typically black-haired, brown-eyed, olive-skinned. The only tribe of Men that remained in Eänna beyond the Great Kayarsus.

Throughout the events of the First Holy War we mainly encounter the Ketyai, Norsirai, and Scylvendi through the eyes of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. The Satyothi make brief appearances throughout the novels but for the most part we know little of Zeüm or it's inhabitants. Interestingly enough, according to the Thousandfold Thought glossary, Zeüm is the source of the finest steel in the Three Seas.

The Xiuhianni on the other hand we know absolutely nothing about apart from what we can infer based on some key excerpts from the Thousandfold Thought glossary.

According to the excerpts Breaking of the Gates, The Chronicle of the Tusk, and Xiuhianni we know that The Chronicle of the Tusk ends with the determination of four tribes of Men to invade Eärwa. We also know that the Xiuhianni, for their own reasons, refused to follow the other four tribes through the Gates.

However, whether the Xiuhianni have since moved across the Kayarsus into Eärwa is open to debate. In my perusal of The Thousandfold Thought glossary yesterday I stumbled upon the entry Jekhia. It reads as follows:

Jekhia: A tributary nation of High Ainon, famed as the mysterious source of chanv, located at the headwaters of the River Sayut in the Great Kayarsus. The Men of Jekhia are unique in that they exhibit Xiuhianni racial characteristics.

Regardless, based on the above quote by Mr. Bakker and by the fact that they are in the glossary at all, we know that the Xiuhianni have a role to play in future events whether we can speculate on them or not.

Houses, Nations, and Kings:

Aethelarius VI - King of Atrithau and last of the line of Morghund
Nrezza Barisullas - King of Cironj
Nersei Eukernas II - King of Conriya
Musammu Chinjosa - King-Regent of High Ainon
Coithus Eryeat - King of Galeoth
Hringa Rauschang - King of Thunyerus

House Biaxi - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Trimas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Coithus - Ruling dynasty of Galeoth
House Daskas - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Gaumum - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Hoga - Ruling dynasty of Agansanor
House Ikurei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Kiskei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Ligesseras - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Morghund - Ruling dynasty of Atrithau
House Nersei - Ruling dynasty of Conriya
House Thallei - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Surmante - One of the Houses of the Congregate
House Zerxei - One of the Houses of the Congregate

Zeüm - A mysterious and powerful Satyothi nation beyond Nilnamesh
Nilnamesh - A Ketyai nation on the extreme southwest edge of the Three Seas
Cingulat - A Ketyai nation on the north western coast of Kutnarmu, south of Nilnamesh

Bar a couple names that have either slipped from my memory - I've been happily laden reading my christmas books lately and it's been awhile since I've immersed myself in the Prince of Nothing - or have never been mentioned, the above are the Kings and nations that now, unknowingly, fall under Aspect-Emperor Anasûrimbor Kellhus's domain.

In the past I have had many posters respond who've been quite adamant about the fact that they believe that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor we will find all the nations of the Three Seas squarely under Anasûrimbor Kellhus's rule. This is not an implausible suggestion; it's even a rather likely one.

As immense and amazing as Cû'jara Cinmoi's world is throughout the Prince of Nothing what many posters fail to realize, or perhaps just disregard all together, is that Kellhus has only been dealing with the chosen military leaders from their respective nations. Though these individuals stand high in their nation's respective rankings these are not the rulers of the Three Seas that unwittingly find themselves below Kellhus in hierarchy following Maithanet's proclamation at the end of The Thousandfold Thought.

Again, I know that upon opening the pages of The Aspect-Emperor these matters will probably have been long resolved in the intervening events between The Thousandfold Thought and The Aspect-Emperor. However, the only possible way to discern the state of the initial pages of The Aspect-Emperor is to speculate on those intervening events. As I've written before, probably in this same deleted thread, as far as I've concerned at the end of The Thousandfold Thought the only realm Kellhus has actual control over is Kian and what was the Nansur Empire. My main question for speculation is how will Kellhus deal with the individual rulers of the Three Seas. I foresee problems for him particularly with the Kings of Cironj, Galeoth, and Thunyerus.

Demanding further speculation are the Nations of Zeüm, Nilnamesh, and Cingulat. These nations have been almost entirely omitted from the events of the First Holy War aside from brief references. If Kellhus's goal is truly bent towards the end of Consult defeat he will definitely need the might and collaboration of all Three Seas factions especially ulterior ones.

The Schools, wizards and witches:

The School of Mandate - Gnostic School
The School of Mangaecca - Gnostic School
The Imperial Saik - Anagogic School, indentured to the Nansur Emperor
The Scarlet Spires - Anagogic and Daimotic School, de facto rulers of High Ainon
The Circle of Nibel - Sorcery unknown though I assume Anagogic or at least a variation of
The Mysunsai - Anagogic School, originally comprised of three minor Schools: the Mikka Council from Cironji, the Oaranat from Nilnamesh, and the Nilitar Compact from Ce Tydonn
Drusas Achamian - Gnostic Wizard and adherent of Seswatha

Besides the Wizard Achamian the above are the &quot;Major Schools&quot; of the Three Seas.

Now I've read many arguments regarding the Schools and sorcerous factions. Many state that Kellhus will make a so-called &quot;super School&quot; of Gnostic sorcerers or that he will dissolve the many Schools and make the Mandate individual beyond control of the Gnosis. I've found intelligent reasoning behind none of these arguments.

The Schools of the Three Seas definitely must be speculated upon in order to discern anything of The Aspect-Emperor. As the sorcerous factions stand to be one of the most influential factors in future events, to not ponder upon their actions would be irresponsible of us as speculators.

Though the Quorum of Mandate appear in the ending scene of The Thousandfold Thought at Kellhus's side we must remember that at this time they intend to use Kellhus as a tool. It can be argued that we know nothing of the initial meeting between Kellhus and the Quorum, however, we do know that they've remained sceptical of his prophetic status and believe wholly that they will control his actions pertaining to the Consult and not vice versa.

The Scarlet Spires and the Imperial Saik are the only other two Schools that we experience throughout the First Holy War's events aside from, briefly, the Mysunsai.

By the end of The Thousandfold Thought the Scarlet Spires have been weakened as a School. I believe they still have an intelligent grandmaster at their head albeit a slightly demented one. Specifically due to Iyokus's lack of belief in Kellhus and his Daimotic prowess leads me to believe the Scarlet Spires still have a role to play.

As for the Imperial Saik, they're in line for a new grandmaster. As to whom I couldn't say, however, I think we are assured that the Saik land squarely in Kellhus's pocket. As we read in one of Conphas's narratives in The Thousandfold Thought:

The Imperial Saik . . . revered their traditions. They took deep pride in the fact that they alone honoured the old Compactorium, the ancient indenture that had bound all the Schools to Cenei and her Aspect-Emperors in Near Antiquity.


Ironically, the above quote could prove the undoing of any sorcerous speculations, mine or otherwise. Perhaps Kellhus will seek to revive certain ancient indentures.

Also, the witches of the three Seas. I'd yet to consider the witches of the Three Seas in my speculations until reviewing the inept arguments of one of my opposition and a few quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi.

As for witchcraft, this issue does come up later. The most I'll say is that it's an informal 'folkloric' form of the Anagogis


The only question out of these that doesn't find itself pinned to a important part of the future story has to do with women and sorcery (and even then!). Yes, as many women are born to the 'Few' as men, but due to oppression, they have no formal tradition as such: they're typically burned as witches. Neither the Schools nor the mundane powers tolerate sorcery outside the aegis of the Schools, so wizards suffer much the same fate.

I think I should cut it short there, since it becomes quite significant in AE.


We learn in The Warrior-Prophet that Achamian has had a run-in with a Sansori witch. Furthermore, though never explicitly stated, I believe Achamian kills the witch and steals a few of her belongings, obviously, Wathi Doll inclusive.

It is likely that any witches of the Three Seas stay clear of the central nations due to their persecution at the hands of both the religious and sorcerous factions. There is even likely a handful of wizards scattered around the extremities of the Three Seas.

From the above two quotes by Cû'jara Cinmoi as well as another that I've omitted due to not being able to find it, I come to the conclusion that Drusas Achamian might have a few more run-ins with the female Few of the Three Seas. As my opposition, Ulyaoth, has suggested in another debate - and I'm now inclined to agree due to Mr. Bakker's quotes - we may find Drusas Achamian seated by an entirely different fire throughout The Aspect-Emperor. Again as Ulyaoth suggested, Achamian could find a use incorporating the forkloric Anagogis into his increasing Gnostic prowess.

Lastly, and most importantly, - as I've already started a bit above - in sorcerous speculations: Drusas Achamian. Probably my favourite character of the Prince of Nothing aside from Kellhus. I've never connected so much to a character as Achamian aside Cnaiür; specifically his madness.

Now I won't reiterate my whole argument surrounding Achamian spending, at least some of, the intervening years between novels in Ishterebinth. If you'd like to read more you can do so [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=1014&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=30:8pasmkvt]here[/url:8pasmkvt] where myself and Ulyaoth were in the process of hashing it out quite thoroughly.

To sum it up, in light of no contrary evidence or more intelligent reasoning, I believe that Achamian may journey to Ishterebinth in order to sue for Nonmen support. I believe there is no better place for him to gain allies or power towards the end of Consult defeat. The teachings of the Gnosis that Nonmen Siqu and Quya could impart to Achamian would prove invaluable in his quest. Likewise, I'm sure that Achamian's tales of Consult skin-spies throughout the Three Seas will shock the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas into looking inwards towards their own House.

The Dûnyain:

Pragma Jeükal - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Meigon - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Pragma Uän - Senior brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Moënghus - Exiled brethren of the Dûnyain
Anasûrimbor Kellhus

Though the Dûnyain of Ishuäl only appear briefly in the Prince of Nothing series in the prologue of The Darkness That Comes Before, I'm entirely convinced that Mr. Bakker is not yet finished with this devious monastic sect.

I've included the Anasûrimbors Moënghus and Kellhus in this list because they are the only two Dûnyain to have left Ishuäl in 2000 years. Whether or not they can be considered Dûnyain, or even alive in Moënghus's case, at the end of The Thousandfold Thought is open to debate, however, their actions throughout all we have read and experienced stand as an indication of the dormant power lying in the Demua mountains.

We know that the Dûnyain Moënghus left Ishuäl following a raid by Sranc. Moënghus was sent out into the world to see if the Dûnyain's seclusion was threatened and assured that it was not, Moënghus returned only to be exiled; compromised by the world he had only briefly experienced.

After thirty years in Eärwa surrounded by worldborn men, even weakened in ability by his Cishaurim blinding, Moënghus still had none among them he could call his brethren. After realizing the Thousandfold Thought during his long hours in the probability trance in the Mansion beneath Kyudea, and after his interrogations of the skin-spies, he realizes that only a whole Dûnyain could overcome the enormous circumstances presented by the Consult and the apocalypse.

Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them.

However, I think the most we can speculate upon due to the Dûnyain's elusive nature is how they will join the events of the Three Seas.

I'm, obviously, open to suggestions regarding anything I've written or will write. In this instance I feel there are only two options:

The Dûnyain Anasûrimbor Kellhus feels the Dûnyain are a threat towards existence in that they believe what is compliant has to be isolated from what is unruly and intractable; the World from the Outside. In the Dûnyain the Consult have possible strong allies depending on who breaches their isolation.

I haven't thought of anything that suggests to me that Kellhus will try and reach the Dûnyain. It seems to me he believes them contently isolated. On the other hand, I can see the Consult using Cnaiür to find them.

Again what is assured is that the Dûnyain will appear in the Three Seas in more force in the future novels.

Nonmen:

Injor-Niyas - The last remaining Nonmen nation
Ishterebinth - The last of the Nonmen Mansions, also known as Ishoriöl
Nin-Ciljiras - The last surviving Nonmen King
Nil'giccas - The Nonmen King of Ishterebinth
Cil-Aujas - Lost Nonmen Mansion

The above are all that remains of the ancient Cûnoroi nations of old. Just to reiterate here as to not confuse anyone, Nin-Ciljiras is King in Ishterebinth. I've put Nil'giccas in as a curiosity.

Nil'giccas was King of Ishterebinth during the First Apocalypse. Anasûrimbor Celmomas II and Seswatha, Grandmaster of the Sohonc, treated with Nil'giccas and the Nonmen after which the Nonmen of Injor-Niyas joined the coalition of the First Ordeal.

Between the First Apocalypse and the end of The Thousandfold Thought something happens in Ishterebinth that displaces Nil'giccas as King. However, I can find nowhere stating that the former King dies. Even his glossary entry is implicative as Nil'giccas's states (? - ) and Cû'jara Cinmoi's states (? - ?) as we know he died.

Aside from that, the Cûnoroi of Eärwa must be speculated upon, I guess with the same import of everything else in this post. As I iterated, the Cûnoroi were the first foes of the Inchoroi and you could say their war has lasted more then 4 millennia.

I, again, won't reiterate my speculations on Achamian breaching their mountain fastness. This I believe is one of the most logical ways for Mr. Bakker to bring the Nonmen back into the heart of events.

As well, as it's in the same thread, I won't repeat my thoughts on Cil-Aujas.

However, while I've been writing and in past speculations I've come to a different theory. While I don't give much credit to it, as I believe Cet'ingira is firmly Erratic and on the Consult's side, it has always struck me kind of odd that Mekeritrig was wandering Sobel with only a handful of Sranc. What if Mekeritrig, at first under the guise of Consult instruction, returns to Ishterebinth and rejoins the Cûnoroi against the Inchoroi?

The Consult:

Cara-Sincurimoi - The No-God
Aurang - Inchoroi Prince and Horde-General to the No-God
Aurax - Inchoroi Prince
Cet'ingira, also known as Mekeritrig - Nonmen Erratic
Shaeönanra, also known as Shauriatas - Grandvizier of the Mangaecca

Just wanted to say, before I begin writing of the Consult, that I apologize for any variation of post quality. This post has taken me awhile to write and parts I don't believe are up to my standard of writing. However, I hope it hasn't been too boring to read.

In The Thousandfold Thought glossary under the entry No-God Cû'jara Cinmoi has written &quot;The entity summoned by the Consult.&quot; This stands with my speculations of the No-God as I believe him to be an entity rather than a force of nature.

Despite that I also believe that the best explanation of the No-God's nature lies [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=1548&amp;start=15:8pasmkvt]here[/url:8pasmkvt] under Guest's entry. It definitely ties into other snippets of the No-God's nature that Cû'jara Cinmoi has left us with.

Furthermore, I believe Cara-Sincurimoi is closely tied to the Aporos. In The Warrior-Prophet in one of Achamian's dreams, Seswatha describes the Carapace as &quot;indented with choric script.&quot; As well, the Carapace itself is a nimil sarcophagus. These things lead me to believe that the Inchoroi needed more help from the Nonmen Aporic practicitioners than people realize.

As for Aurang and Aurax, the surviving Inchoroi:

Throughout the novels we only experience Aurang of the Inchoroi. I do have a sneaking suspicion that the Inchoroi we encounter with Aëngelas and the Werigda is Aurax, but that is mute point.

We know that Aurang's task throughout the First Holy War is the direction of the various skin-spies who've infiltrated the various factions. We also know that the Consult's stake in the war was the destruction of the Cishaurim thinking that it was their sorcery that allowed them to discover the skin-spies.

However, soon that goal, though accomplished, becomes tainted by the unanswered question: Who are the Dûnyain? This is what Aurang spends most of The Thousandfold Thought trying to figure out.

For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III?

As for Aurax, the only real basis for speculation I can lay down is that in The Thousandfold Thought glossary it states that he was the one who initially teaches the remnants of the Tekne to the Mangaecca.

Cet'ingira remains an ambiguity. What was he doing in Sobel with only a handful of Sranc while Aurax, or Aurang, travels Gâl with a company of Sranc and Nonmen Erratics? Was he truly only &quot;searching for trauma&quot; as Cû'jara states Nonmen are prone to do or was there deeper reason?

Finally, Shauriatas: it's apparent that Shauriatas came to some success in his study of soul-trapping sorceries. It's likely that by the end of The Thousandfold Thought he is a talented Aporic sorcerer as well as a Gnostic one. It's also likely that himself, Mekeritrig, and any original Nonmen Aporic practitioners among the Consult are very responsible for the No-God and his Carapace.

However, until the return of the No-God to Eärwa it's likely that Shauriatas, Mekeritrig, and Aurax will not have more active roles in Three Seas events. They are obviously quite busy experimenting with the Tekne.

Once again, I apologize for what I feel is an obvious decline in articulation and overall technique in my writing towards the end of this post. Nearing the end of this, I've just wanted to see it posted rather than continually having to find time to write. I hope, again, that it was at least somewhat enjoyable.

To finish, I want to reiterate once again my goal in writing this post. I hope that between any speculators among us here on the three-seas forum can discern at least some truths before ever immersing ourselves in Cû'jara Cinmoi's world again. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 05 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:3vyqivhc
.............................

For me, my mainly unanswered question of the Consult throughout the Prince of Nothing is this: Why did the Consult kill Ikurei Xerius III?

.........................[/quote:3vyqivhc]

I think I can least speculate on this one specific question; as to the others there are insufficient data. As far as we know, the secular and religious institutions of the Three-Seas were riddled with Consult skin-spies, and until the arrival of Moenghus and Kellhus, they had remained undetectable. The skin-spies were apparently able to tolerate some extraordinary individuals within these bodies, for instance Maithanet. Unlike Maithanet, Ikurei Xerius was not a supporter of the Holy War and thereby unfriendly to the immediate Consult aim of the destruction of the Cishaurim, whom they (the Consult) thought had developed some means of detecting their spies. Both Skaeos and the Dowager Empress (whose name I forget and who were probably imposters at the time) had expressed their misgivings with regard to the compact with the Fanim, and Ikurei's agreement to the Fanim's retention of Shimeh. On the other hand the Consult could have killed Ikurei Xerius earlier, but the immediate heir to the Nansur throne (Conphas) supported his uncle's policy and was even more friendly to the Fanim. The upshot of all this was that Ikurei Xerius was superfluous as far as the Consult were concerned and the Consult were probably looking for another house to assume the imperial mantle and vigourously prosecute the Holy War. Events moved too quickly, when Ikurei detected the imposture of one of the Skin Spies it then turned the emperor off - this skin spy was apparently maddened by a lust for both copulation and murder, it got a little bit carried away but that's the problem with these creatures. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 06 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Nauticus, Auditor

Wow.

Just, wow.

Very informative. I enjoyed the read thoroughly. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 07 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by U-Boat, Commoner

Seeing as the book is rumoured to happen 20 years from the events of TTT, I'm thinking mini-Moenghus and the child of Esmi-kellhus could also have parts to play. Thoughts? view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 07 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

They most definitely do have parts to play, U-Boat. As readers of the novels, we know that Mr. Bakker does not write without motive.

Since we do not know the personalities that these characters, Moënghus and Esmenet's and Kellhus's yet unnamed child, will develope in their first 20 years of life we cannot actively speculate on what roles they may play in the twilight before the Second Apocalypse. However, there are things we can infer in order to see a sliver of their future selves.

Firstly, Serwë's child Moënghus. I believe little Moënghus is certainly going to have the more interesting upbringing as well as a contrasting character to that of his unborn sibling. Though Moënghus will be raised by Kellhus and Esmenet as Serwë and Kellhus's child, there is no doubt in my mind concerning who Moënghus's father really is. Despite the ambiguity of Cû'jara Cinmoi's writing I do not doubt that Cnaiür is the father and that Serwë was completely delusional in regards to Kellhus's fathering.

This itself provides some interesting insights to whom Moënghus will become. At the time we, the readers, encounter Cnaiür urs Skiötha of the Scylvendi he has been slowly going insane for thirty years due to his own encounter with the Dûnyain Moënghus. In the two year events of the First Holy War following his second Dûnyain encounter with Kellhus, we witness Cnaiür go very quickly insane. I myself can attest to the hereditary attributes of madness.

Now while Mr. Bakker contests inherent traits of history and custom throughout the novels, I wouldn't doubt if Moënghus does inherit personality traits of both Cnaiür and Serwë. Perhaps Cnaiür's abnormal Scylvendi intelligence or Serwë's vanity. Again, just minute speculations; food for thought.

As well, we have to take into account that the only other man aside from Kellhus who knows Moënghus's true heritage is Cnaiür himself; a living relative even. The Consult may eventually use Cnaiür to get to Kellhus through Moënghus or Cnaiür, the mad aspect he is, may just feel the need to approach Moënghus as a father.

Concerning the younger Moënghus, I believe his eventual actions and personality will be of a darkly sort in Kellhus's new world.

However, as I said, in contrast to the mystery regarding Moënghus's future we have already been provided a glimspe into his sibling's eventuality; Nau-Cayûti.

Most of us have either surmised or read Mr. Bakker's parallels between Kellhus and Celmomas II, Achamian and Seswatha, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti. If not, I'm a strong believer that these parallels will become more focused in The Aspect-Emperor novels. In this light we have, at least a little, understanding of the unborn child's future.

Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse.

I think it likely that upon Kellhus and Achamian's reunion, Achamian and the unborn child may become fast friends. Perhaps Achamian will return from his sabbatical to Ishterebinth bearing news of doom and at his knees beneath the Warrior-Prophet &quot;holy&quot; Aspect-Emperor throne Kellhus will ask Achamian to teach his son.

Regardless, overall as children reared by Kellhus both Moënghus and his unborn sibling will prove to be the exceptional and heroic individuals we expect them to be and that their generation will need in the hours before the Second Apocalypse. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 07 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:1lzxbq9b

Whereas most readers are assured that Kellhus is the father of Esmenet's child, I am not. I believe Esmenet and Achamian's reunion on the hilltop over Shimeh is not coincidence, nor the fact that Achamian only notices her childbearing bulge following his return to Shimeh at the end of The Thousandfold Thought. While it is likely that Kellhus is the father, I wholly believe Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote the above scenes with the intent of instilling doubt and providing more attune parallels to the First Apocalypse.

.........[/quote:1lzxbq9b]

Given the circumstances of Achamian's and Esmenet's parting and the start of her relationship with Kellhus, there can be little doubt of the paternity of her unborn child. Esmenet removed her contraceptive charm (useful item! it beats the pill and there's no side effects) only after the abduction of Achamian. Achamian had congress with Esmenet only after Esmenet knew was pregnant. Unless reproductive cycles function differently in the Three-Seas, Kellhus is clearly the father of Esmenet's child. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 08 February 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by U-Boat, Commoner

I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 17 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

New synopsis for Aspect Emperor sheds a few details on next book. Which apparently will be called The Great Ordeal(Aspect-Emperor)

Some twenty years have passed since the events narrated in The Prince of Nothing. Anasurimbor Kellhus now rules all the Three Seas, the first true Aspect-Emperor in a thousand years. The masses worship him as a living god, though a few, the Orthodox, dare claim he's a walking demon. With Proyas and Saubon as his Exalt-Generals, he leads a holy war called the Great Ordeal deep into the wastes of the Ancient North, intent on destroying Golgotterath and preventing the Second Apocalypse. Esmenet, meanwhile, remains in Momemn, where she struggles not only to rule his vast empire, but their murderous children as well. And Achamian, who lives as a Wizard in embittered exile, undertakes a mad quest to uncover the origins of the Dunyain.
view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 17 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Madness, Peralogue

Wow. Just wow. Thank you Warrior-Poet for starting off my paddy's day celebrations with that tidbit. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 18 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Curethan, Didact

Ye, neat! view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 19 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think soon we will need a new section for The Great Ordeal view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 20 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by RazorSmile, Candidate

Quote: &quot;U-Boat&quot;:wgj3qr5i
I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/quote:wgj3qr5i]

Dude, Kellhus is already evil. He was evil from his very first appearance in Prince of Nothing.


-------------

*reads the new synopsis*

Ahhhh, new material. Yeessssssss ... Ok.

&quot;The Orthodox,&quot; I'm guessing is the remnant of the Anagogics led by Iyokus, perhaps together with the remnants of fundamentalist Inrithi who have yet to fall for Kellhus' charms.

Where's Maithenet while all this is going down?

&quot;murderous children&quot; huh? Hee!

There is no part of the bit about Achamian that I do not like [img:wgj3qr5i]http&#58;//forum&#46;spacebattles&#46;com/forumimg/smilies//biggrin&#46;gif[/img:wgj3qr5i] view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 20 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Quote: &quot;RazorSmile&quot;:3ovhxf4s
Quote: &quot;U-Boat&quot;:3ovhxf4s
I hope it actually isn't like a total parallel of the 1st apocolayse. I'm actually hoping here that Kellhus turns evil, simply because I hate him, and then Achamian gets to save the world, and gets together with Esmenet again. Long live happy endings! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->[/quote:3ovhxf4s]

Dude, Kellhus is already evil. He was evil from his very first appearance in Prince of Nothing.[/quote:3ovhxf4s]

Wrong Kellhus was amoral in the very beginning which isnt the same as evil because his ethics were different. Now he may possibly be considered good or evil depending on how he has changed over the past 20 years. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 22 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Curethan, Didact

Any idea of a release date for the hardcover? I did a quick google search and could only find UK release date for the paperback - 1 March 2008... view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 22 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Nauticus, Auditor

I'm going out on pure assumption here, and it may be a wild guess.

I believe Kellhus isn't evil, but instead actually believes the prophecy of the Second Apocalypse through his name. Hence declaring a Holy War to destroy Golgotterath. His exile of Achamian, I believe, was out of fear more than hate - fear that Achamian is the one who suspects Kellhus as the Harbringer.

That said, if Baby Moenghus is, in fact, the child of Kellhus and not Cnaiur, he would be the Harbringer. The prophecy stated that an Anisurimbor will come at the end of the world. Nobody knows how long Kellhus or Moenghus were there, but the child is coming - born of the world, so more in-tune with the prophecy.

That's nothing new, but I think that, with the birth, Baby Moenghus will contrast Kellhus, and will grow to be the 'bad guy', so to speak. Perhaps even a reincarnation of the No-God himself. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 22 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

His exile of Achamian, I believe, was out of fear more than hate - fear that Achamian is the one who suspects Kellhus as the Harbringer.


Just for clarification Akka exiled himself, Kellhus asked Akka to stand at his side and Akka did his renouncing of his school, prophet, etc.

As for Baby Moenghus Im still almost positive that the child absolutely is Cnauir's however that doesnt really matter, the child is still regarded as Kellhus'.

Though I dont think it really matters which Anasurimbor is the Harbringer because all the Harbringer means is that the Second Apocalypse is coming so the possibilities are huge for who the Harbringer could actually be.

As for the bad guy role, I agree it likely will be one of his kids and the synopsis supports that somewhat. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 23 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Nauticus, Auditor

I've never been so successfully proven wrong, yet somewhat-agreed with before <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

I've heard The Great Ordeal could be released as early as January 2008, with the US release around March. view post


The Aspect-Emperor posted 23 March 2007 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The Aspect-Emperor by Mithfânion, Didact

Madness,

Now at the end of The Thousandfold Thought, again, I'm entirely convinced that Cû'jara Cinmoi has plans for the Dûnyain. As I've iterated before, once again I think in this very deleted post, I do not think that Kellhus is the most able or most intelligent Dûnyain from among them.


Just on this particular note I have to quibble. Scott has already stated that &quot; Kellhus is considered a Prodigy, even among the Dunyain&quot; .

Any of the Dunyain would apparantly be able to dominate normal men, but Kellhus most especially. Which, it has to be said, has indeed been established in the text sofar. view post


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