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Men v. Nonmen posted 27 January 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by Wil, Head Moderator

Alright, this has been eating at my mind for a while.

In the "Languages" thread, you said that Cu'jara Cinmoi was a Nonman king. I am still confused as to the difference between Men and Nonmen. Could you shed some light on this issue? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 28 January 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I could...

I hate to be coy, but I there's some information I want to reveal gradually through the course of the story. Certain crucial facts regarding the Nonmen come to light toward the end of The Warrior-Prophet.

I hope this doesn't sound too cheesey, but I actually look at the story as a kind of striptease that gradually reveals the world - kind of like Gene Wolfe, though not so cryptic (or brilliant).

I can recap and clarify the info that's been given so far: the Nonmen are an ancient race, the 'original people' of Earwa, who are nearly immortal, and who fought both for and against the No-God during the Apocalypse. They are slowly going insane: their minds can only hold roughly four or five human lifetimes of experiences, and as the centuries pass the traumatic experiences they suffer crowd out their other memories, until now, almost all Nonmen remember only the pain and loss in their lives. And some, like the Nonman (Mekertrig) that Kellhus meets in the Prologue, have taken to creating traumatic experiences just so they can have something to remember... view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 29 January 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by Wil, Head Moderator

Thanks for the re-cap, it helped a lot!

I understand perfectly that you don't want to reveal anything too soon. It is the one flaw with this process. Please feel free at anytime to give us a nice RAFO (Read and find out). After all, we're just glad that you stop by. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 03 February 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by LooseCannon, Peralogue

Exellent information. That indeed explains a lot about what went down in the prologue.

Can you give us any indication of how many nonmen still exist? For instance, could they muster an army or are there just a few left? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 03 February 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.

There, I've gone and said too much!

Welcome to forum Loosecannon! Will I see you at the TWP book launch? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 03 February 2004 in Author Q & AMen v. Nonmen by LooseCannon, Peralogue

Thanks for the timely response! Nice to see a response from an author that doesn't contain the phrase "read and find out". And I echo what others have said on this site: great work and keep it up, looking forward to the rest of the series. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

As for the book launch - where and when? I saw you at Chapters last summer in north London but didn't have my copy of Darkness with me and was on the way to work so didn't have any time, unfortunately, to chat. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 21 February 2004 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Mithfânion, Didact

I'm curious about this ancient Nonmen King, from which you take your screenname. Is he only a legend or is he still alive at the time of our story? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 21 February 2004 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Legend. Cu'jara Cinmoi has been dead for several thousand years. References to and explanations regarding him surface a few times in TWP, and the story of his wars with the Inchoroi will be included in the appendices to Bk III - if I can convince them to include it!

I actually hope, at some point, to write a stand alone regarding him. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 21 February 2004 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Mithfânion, Didact

Sounds awesome. I hope you can pull that off.

How's TTT going btw? Things going in the direction that you want? Will there be anything that will differentiate it from the previous two books in any way that one might not expect? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 22 February 2004 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

I'm actually waiting a couple weeks before digging into TTT (I'm still decompressing from TWP). I have the old, old version that I wrote some fifteen years ago, but I would be surprised if more than a few phrases survived in the final version. I tend to go underground for periods of frenetic writing and rewriting.

The big difference will be the relative density of the events. Many things start happening within a short span of time. Things hit the proverbial fan. There will also be a series of extensive glossaries dealing with Earwa. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 27 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Conphas, Commoner

And some, like the Nonman (Mekertrig) that Kellhus meets in the Prologue, have taken to creating traumatic experiences just so they can have something to remember...


Sorry to dredge up this old topic but is the Nonman from the prologue of tDtCB the Nonman Erratic who reveals Golgotterath to the Gnostic Sorcerers prior to the First Apocalypse?

It looks like Scott spelled the name differently yet very similar so I'm not sure if this is a typo or not?

Any help is appreciated! view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 27 January 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Mithfânion, Didact

Sorry to dredge up this old topic but is the Nonman from the prologue of tDtCB the Nonman Erratic who reveals Golgotterath to the Gnostic Sorcerers prior to the First Apocalypse?


Yes, that is the same Nonman. He's a ranking member of the Consult and referred to by Seswatha as a Nonman prince as well. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 07 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Numbers? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 07 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

You make several mistaken assumptions in your post. First of all, there were Eannorean sorcerers, even before the migrations. Check one of the old threads in this forum. Scott told us about the clashes between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, i.e. Prophets who used sorcery. The Eannoreans also invaded Earwa using Chorae, which were given them by the Inchoroi. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yup, as WL said Men developed their own Sorcery, this is the Anagosis. As a side note Siqu are Nonmen who served Men during the Nonman Tutelage prior to the Apocalypse.

It's important to remember when reading there are two distinct groups of men talked about in the books/appendix. There are the "soft hearted" men who already inhabited Earwa and were enslaved by the Nonmen, and there are the Tribes of Men who invaded from Eanna in order to carry out a genocidal war against the Nonmen. As WL said there were the Shamans, Prophets who worked Sorcery in the time of the Tusk (prior to the Breaking of the Gates). By the time of the Breaking of the Gates and the subsequent "migratory invasions" the Nonmen had already been weakened by their initial clashes with the Inchoroi, followed by the Womb-Plague, followed by the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars. They were far from a vibrant and hearty race at this point. If those initial events hadn't happened I don't think the Breaking of the Gates would have succeeded. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by unJon, Auditor

Can someone point me to an old post where Scott talks about Eanna sorcery and or breaking of the gates stuff? Sounds interesting and I didn't know any of it. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I just culled what little I could from the appendix and other things briefly mentioned in the books. The Chronicles of the Tusk end with the men of Eanna marching on Earwa and the Breaking of the Gates, and the Tusk itself contains prohibitions on Sorcery as well as mentioning Shamans, Sorcerors, etc. So we know that since human Sorcerors are mentioned in the Tusk, humans had developed some form of Anagogic Sorcery prior to the Breaking of the Gates. (They also knew about Nonmen at this time so the language of the Anagogic used could still have been based on a Nonman tongue or some other tongue.)

As for a particular thread where Scott talks about it I'm not sure, have to dig around. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

This is what Scott had to say in my question thread:

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:1phreyx1
So far, the deepest the histories go is to the Fall, which is to say, the arrival of the Inchoroi in the last Age of Nonmen. At the moment, that feels plenty deep, and it precedes the Tusk by quite a few thousand years. I haven't been looking at the history of Earwa so much from the standpoint of an 'absolute observer,' as from from the standpoint of what is known or thought to be known at the time of the Holy War. This isn't a rule that I adhere to, just a tendency I seem to have largely followed. There are things from the time of the Tusk I do want to flesh out, such as the conflict between the Old Prophets and the Shamans, the question of how the surviving Inchoroi brought Chorae, the 'Tears of God' to the Five Tribes before the Breaking of the Gates, and the Cuno-Halaroi Wars (Halaroi is the Nonman name for Men). Stuff like that.[/quote:1phreyx1] view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by unJon, Auditor

Thanks, WL view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Thanks WL, I tried searching for that thread but didn't find it. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 08 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:14m6ewge
Thanks WL, I tried searching for that thread but didn't find it.[/quote:14m6ewge]

No prob... Fact is I tried using the search engine too, with no results (it doesn't seem to work that well lately...). Thankfully I knew exactly where the quote was... view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

Keep this up, WL, and I'll have to put you on retainer. Long time no see. How you've been keeping? view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by White Lord, Subdidact

Been very busy lately preparing exams... still am for that matter (does this ever end... <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: -->), which is why I haven't been very active here. But you can expect me and my questions back with a vengeance in a bit... <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) --> view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 22 June 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Do you people think there's any chance that Scott's summary of the things currently known about the Nonmen might contain things that will be proved false in the later books or should we take all of it as a given? In particular, I'm thinking about the explanation behind the specialized memory loss. The human brain simply doesn't work that way, and while I'm fully aware that we're talking about Nonmen here, I don't know whether to believe the official line or not.

You know, it's pretty annoying when a self-consistent and brilliant (or at least brilliantly insane) theory with some fairly radical implications for the future of the story vanishes in a puff of smoke because of something the author said outside of the actual books... view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 23 July 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by RennQu, Commoner

I also am highly curious about the Nonmen.

From the description in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in the Encyclopedic Glossary found at the end of TTT, there is mentioned a &quot;criminal&quot; recruited for the Second-Watch. Sirwitta (a Halaroi aka Man) had not only seduced the wife of a Nonman Ishroi, but had also fathered a daughter by her named Cimoira.

Another thing that I had discovered in this section is that the Nonmen were not always Immortal- they aged (exact lifespan I cannot guess) in a similar manner to men, that is they grey, wrinkle, lose eyesight, weaken etc. Then Cujara-Cinmoi, fearing death, pardoned the Inchoroi on the condition that they &quot;...banish death from the halls of my people&quot;. This is how the Cunuroi became, for lack of a better description, physically ageless. This is also when the &quot;Womb-Plague&quot; struck, possibly a byproduct of the physicians treatments. It effectively eliminates the female gender from the Nonmen, unless I am mistaken. I haven't truly decided the intent of the Inchoroi; was this intended? If so, wouldnt they have realized that the retribution for such treachery would be great? I digress...

I do not understand why the Nonmen are &quot;doomed&quot; to extinction. It is evident from several passages that cross breeding in fact occured. Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I is said to have lived for 178 years due to reputed Nonman blood in his veins. Also the instance of Cimoira points to genetic compatibility between Man and Nonman.

If reproduction between Nonmen and Men is possible, why has the Nonman presence in Earwa dwindled to a single mansion and a handful of outcasts?
Is it their own pride that prevents them from attempting to pump new-blood into their dying race? The offspring are undoubtedly shorter lived than the pure remaining blood of the true Nonmen, but the immortality was gained at the price of their wives! Would it not be thinkable to take Haloroi brides purely to continue some sort of bloodline?

Sorry for the rant... It's just been bugging me is all. Thanks in advance for any insight any of you are able to provide <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 24 July 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by lfex, Peralogue

I suspect Nonmen are to proud to accept mixed bloods as their own. It seems clear that they considered themselves superior to Men and with such mindset it is possible that even one drip of Men blood makes a person human in their eyes. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 24 July 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Curethan, Didact

I believe that there aint any non-women. I think that there was a 'womb-plague' that killed all the non-women at the same time that the non-men gained immortality. I could be wrong, there may still be non-women, just infertile. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 25 July 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;RennQu&quot;:uijslo23
I also am highly curious about the Nonmen.

From the description in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in the Encyclopedic Glossary found at the end of TTT, there is mentioned a &quot;criminal&quot; recruited for the Second-Watch. Sirwitta (a Halaroi aka Man) had not only seduced the wife of a Nonman Ishroi, but had also fathered a daughter by her named Cimoira............I do not understand why the Nonmen are &quot;doomed&quot; to extinction. It is evident from several passages that cross breeding in fact occured. Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I is said to have lived for 178 years due to reputed Nonman blood in his veins. Also the instance of Cimoira points to genetic compatibility between Man and Nonman.
[/quote:uijslo23]

So we know that men are sexually compatible with &quot;NonMan&quot; women, but not with certainty the converse - i.e. women may not necessarily be sexually compatible with Non-men. (I agree that the converse is likely; but they may be limits to the Nonmen's ageless health, they may all simply be past it now, or maybe the Inchoroi physicians rendered them sterile as well.) As you say, it may simply be pride that prevents the Nonmen from mingling with men. At the moment we don't know.
.

Another thing that I had discovered in this section is that the Nonmen were not always Immortal- they aged (exact lifespan I cannot guess) in a similar manner to men, that is they grey, wrinkle, lose eyesight, weaken etc. Then Cujara-Cinmoi, fearing death, pardoned the Inchoroi on the condition that they &quot;...banish death from the halls of my people&quot;. This is how the Cunuroi became, for lack of a better description, physically ageless. This is also when the &quot;Womb-Plague&quot; struck, possibly a byproduct of the physicians treatments. It effectively eliminates the female gender from the Nonmen, unless I am mistaken. I haven't truly decided the intent of the Inchoroi; was this intended? If so, wouldnt they have realized that the retribution for such treachery would be great? I digress...

As far as I can tell, the womb-plague was almost certainly visited upon the Non-men by design. This was a terrible vengeance wrought by the Inchoroi, but maybe it also served another purpose: it removed the Nonmen from the great cycle of souls, and this served the Inchoroi purpose in closing the world to the passage of souls by ending the cycle of birth and death. No doubt the Inchoroi did anticipate the Non-men reaction. I don't have the glossaries with me now, but in the first encounter didn't the Inchoroi (now with dragons and chorae) prevail? Of course, the Nonmen defeated the Inchoroi eventually, exterminating all but 2 of them, but the damage had already been done. view post


Men v. Nonmen posted 30 October 2007 in Author Q &amp; AMen v. Nonmen by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

&quot;anor277&quot;:3lfmde83
Quote: &quot;RennQu&quot;:3lfmde83
I also am highly curious about the Nonmen.

From the description in the Cuno-Inchoroi Wars in the Encyclopedic Glossary found at the end of TTT, there is mentioned a &quot;criminal&quot; recruited for the Second-Watch. Sirwitta (a Halaroi aka Man) had not only seduced the wife of a Nonman Ishroi, but had also fathered a daughter by her named Cimoira............I do not understand why the Nonmen are &quot;doomed&quot; to extinction. It is evident from several passages that cross breeding in fact occured. Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja I is said to have lived for 178 years due to reputed Nonman blood in his veins. Also the instance of Cimoira points to genetic compatibility between Man and Nonman.
[/quote:3lfmde83]

So we know that men are sexually compatible with &quot;NonMan&quot; women, but not with certainty the converse - i.e. women may not necessarily be sexually compatible with Non-men. (I agree that the converse is likely; but they may be limits to the Nonmen's ageless health, they may all simply be past it now, or maybe the Inchoroi physicians rendered them sterile as well.) As you say, it may simply be pride that prevents the Nonmen from mingling with men. At the moment we don't know. [/quote:3lfmde83]


I think they still are. Although this may be only a story, supposedly the Anasurimbor line includes a Non-Man who raped a female Anasurimbor and got her pregnant.
.


The Inchoroi were definitely prepared for when the Non-Men attack came; they unleashed all of their fancy new designer creatures, and in addition to that were probably using space-age technological weapons - I think the glossary mentions the Inchoroi using versions of the energy weapon that killed the No-God on flying craft.

Keep in mind, though, that I think there were only 100,000 Inchoroi who survived the crash of the Ark to Earwa, and out of those, some were killed before when the Non-Men drove the Inchoroi into hiding in their ship. The Non-Men may have had a huge number advantage on them, particularly since this was before they had to fight a massive invasion of the Four Tribes of Eanna.

I think Scott mentioned in the Q &amp; A thread that without the immortality treatment, the lives of the Non-Men usually numbered around 400 years. view post


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