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Free will and Sorcery posted 02 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Through out the history of our dimension there have been mass murders and massive wars in the name of something holy. Even in this country, we have seen men and women tortured and killed for the fear of witchcraft. The realm of PoN presents us with the sames fears but a different scenario. The school men live among the population but they are damned. Of course being damned by something you dont believe is hardly threatening. I often find myself wondering what I would do in the case that I had the opportunity to become a mandate schoolman. Although I hold beliefs much like the Men of the Tusk, the powers of sorcery and philosophical sorcery at that, sound very tempting. So this choice puts to the test your very faith! Is there a rigth choice, a shortest path, or is Drusas Achamain right? Are the doubters the ones for which salvation will come? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

Well, I see your dilemma. Personally, I think organized religion is a little...shall I say 'hokey'? If you look back in time to religion, it was a means to explain the unexplicable. The things we dont understand. This worked well for awhile. Then, philosophers started investigating and realizing that those reasons weren't always the answers. This is seen very big in Greek mythology. Religion has also been used to control the masses. Imagine what havoc the would be unleashed if we found absolute undeniable proof that all religion was bogus. The implication would cause absolute chaos. However, we know that not all believe in god. This would be a set of morals and innate good nature that i believe all humans possess. Of course all this could be argued and I don't believe a full discussion is warranted, at least not yet.

On the aspect of sorcery...hmm. The prospect of power above what we have recognized ourselves to have has always been tempting. In the bible it speaks against sorcery and so forth. If you believe in the bible as absolute truth, does that mean that men are capable of such things? At least on some level. Is this prospect worth searching for real truth? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

This may be a bit off the topic, but what would happen if organized religion and religion in general did not exist from the beginning, we would still war, murder, etc. but in what name would we do so? That will probably never happen though. It may seem outright insane but I personally believe that man is capable of sorcery or something of it, though it would be very difficult for most to comprehend let alone learn how. Magic is nature in the defiance of science.

If sorcery was real, or is for that matter, imagine what would happen if the masses knew and believed it. I assume it would be just like medieval times again with the witch burnings.

Off topic again, but I'm curious about this; In ancient times cultures combined their religion and religious rituals with magic or sorcery and it was accepted, ie. Ancient Egypt. Now magic/sorcery is frowned upon within most religions, then again most doubt it's existence. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

As Napoleon said "Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." Meaning without religion morals quite possibly would obsolete and we would certainly be warring and murdering, etc, Without even thinking it is wrong or right. Gods keep people in check. Most of the earliest laws created were religiously based, ex. Hammurabi's code was said to be instructions from a God to Hammurabi, Ten Commandments, the 5 Pillars.

Religion is both a blessing and curse people fight over which one is correct but also gives them morals.

As for sorcery. magic is in the eyes of the beholder early sorcery was likely just early forms of science or unexplainable events of nature, though im not saying sorcery couldnt have existed in this world anything is possible. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

Interesting-

First: If no religion existed from the beginning.

I don't think that we are or were ever wise enough to accept our own ignorance in the ways of the world. So, on that thought, we would seek some way of explaining. As for the wars, without conflicting religions I believe that less wars would have been fought, on a large scale.

For sorcery: Magic, and religious persecution...

You are right in the fact that many ancient religions used magic or sorcerous-like rituals in holy places and meetings all the time. I think that because humans have always feared what they do not understand it was extinguished as so. written into many religions as fear, but in there words 'unholy'. I find myself always wishing to live back in the dark ages when these questions were younger and more answerable. The further from the original acts and questions we get... the further from the answers. At least I believe this in the questions of religion and sorcery.

I look forword to your input <!-- s:!: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_exclaim.gif" alt=":!:" title="Exclamation" /><!-- s:!: --> view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

On the idea of whether less wars would have been fought without conflicting religions I agree religion did cause large scale problems, but what I was saying is that on a smaller scale morality comes into play which makes people think about their actions whether something they did was right or wrong.

As for the magic aspect, people do fear what they themselves do not understand or do themselves, you would have to say jealously must have come into play. Who wouldnt be envious of such power and if you cant have that power then noone should, which eventually would use religion to kill off these old ideas and beliefs about sorecery using words like unholy, What better way to kill a powerful belief or magic than using something even more powerful to say it is wrong like a God if someone tells you it against a god a being with unlimited power your thinking will change pretty quickly. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

No, i dont believe that humans know whether something is right or wrong because of religion. I believe that religion just stabilized ideas that are natural in our head. Even animals understand suffering. When we suffer through something, we naturally dont wish that suffering to continue for others. So we understand that it is wrong. If you wish to cause suffering you know that it is wrong, but your wish is to cause the suffering is greater on some scale.

other than that i totally agree with you. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1054">http://forum.three-seas.com/viewtopic.php?t=1054</a><!-- m -->

You should check out this topic there's a discussion on something similar there. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

It seems to me that humans cannot live with something which is unexplained. The unexplained seem to scare the mass.

Did magic and sorcery ever really exist though? I find myself often wondering this. I believe it did in some way or another. All humans are capable of it I believe, though it would be very hard to learn how one would go about doing so and I'm sure many are unable to grasp the general concept of this. And of course, we being humans, when something unnatural does occur we become afraid and brand it as evil or unholy when it is not able to be explained, you are right about this.

Will we ever be able to come to terms with that of which cannot be explained? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

To answer your question no humans will never be satisfied not understanding something, the whole reason science was even brought about was to explain unexplainable things without using a God as an answer. Humans will strive to answer any question or explain any event until there is nothing to do anymore, and that my friends is when the universe will come to an end. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

Slightly off topic, but do you read Douglas Adams? In one of his books he wrote that once the meaning of the universe or the meaning of life or something along those lines has been figured out by humans, it would end and be replaced by something even more bizarre. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Yes indeed I have read Douglas Adams, quite a guy, I enjoyed his books immensely. He most likely right. If there is a some higher presence in the universe he most likely wouldnt like humans knowing the meaning of the universe. Thats not offtopic at all. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

I enjoy his work, it's another author whom I read as a child. And what will happen when we do figure it out I wonder, will it simply cease to exist, will it end like the bible says... who really knows?

About humans and how we do not like things we are not familiar with or things left unexplained. I want to try something here and see what you're reaction would be, some people are different from others, some are scared of what they do not know and others accepting or interested, those seem to be the ones who have the thirst to know more. My experiment I want to try is completely hypothetical, and is based on your reactions or what you say. Tell me your reactions, thoughts, etc. on what I write below;

I feed off the emotions of others, manipulate their energy for my personal uses. Through meditation I have achieved things you could only wish you could achieve. Communicated with beings that some say are non-existent.

If someone said these things to you, what would your initial reaction be, belief, doubt, would you think the person was clinically insane, would you search for answers, be afraid or want to know more? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Before i answer your question I will say this many people hide their true intentions and reactions behind other ones. The average person would show fear or disdain torwards that statement but under that would secretly desire to know more about it, because human curiousity knows no bounds.

My reaction would probably be that of disinterest some things are best left not understood. As for the clinically insane who knows if the clinically insane are actually insane, maybe they know something we dont. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

very interesting!

I would be slightly sceptical. but would not rule it out as an impossibility. I would wish to know more as much as i could from you. i however would have an instantly doubtful view, just cautious on accepting it as truth from the start view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

And this my friends, is why I used the word &quot;hypothetical&quot;.

If I said it out right, or if anyone said it, they would be outcasts, frowned upon. People are skeptical, always have been, always will. We demand solid proof or physical evidence before we believe something. Not many people believe what they do not understand anymore, and those who do are branded gullible... such as Kellhus and his gullible companion Esmenet, when it came to what Achamian was saying.

Good example: Achamian and the rest of the Mandate Schoolmen believe what they say, they are alike in that aspect, but when it comes to people outside the Mandate, they do not always necessarily believe what they say. In our world there are those who some refer to as &quot;spiritually aware&quot; most people doubt them or think they are not sane, but the other that are &quot;spiritually aware&quot; accept them, etc.

It seems that fiction can always somehow be applied to life. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by TheDarkness, Peralogue

Wow! So many insights, sorry i have missed out on all the discussion. there are so many things in the above comments that i would like to speak to but the range of the topics have varied so greatly that it would be hard to do in one posting. First of all to the Hypothetical: I would want to believe, I would have a lot of questions. Depending on the person's overall look and sincerity, I would judge him much the way Khellus would.
I would like to speak to the earlier religious comments. Religion is a complex and confusing endeavour. Faith is belief without reason. Eternity is existence with out time. God is being without limits. While none of these things exist naturally in the world, they are somehow present in our consciouness. Now i have read arguements that say that for that reason alone, God must exist. Like a statue in the desert, something must have created it. I have gotten a litle off topic here since i was trying to go more towards questions of faith and am now talking about God, but this path is naturally linked. HTe main point: If God is ultimately intellegent, would he be satisfied by a race of worshippers who disregard intellect for blind faith? Much the way Akka believes that doubters have found the true path to eternity. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

Judge me the way Kellhus would. I see myself in some aspects like Kellhus. If only others did the same. They do not seem to judge fairly.

I really like some of the things said in this topic, they describe religion and faith pretty well.

Now do me a favour, what would you say if I told you what I said earlier was not hypothetical but true? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

I would inquire more with enthusiasm view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I would ask for proof and go from there. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 03 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

*agrees with WP* view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

And I would say you're too much alike to be able to think for yourselves. Sense the sarcasm, I did not mean it seriously.

What sort of proof though would you want or ask for? An explanation, or physical proof? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Proof and then an explanation of it. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

Again, what sort of proof? ex. Energy you cannot see, but you can feel. Would that be proof enough? If the person demonstrated it, etc. of course. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I suppose if you could convince me through feeling or me seeing something manipulated then that would be proof enough but then I would require an explanation. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

Well, an explanation has been given. Let's see what is thought of it. The masses may think me not sane but the masses are unable to think for themselves, this irritates me.

Perhaps magic has something to do with will? The mind has a part in it I would think. Assuming magic is at all possible or plausible. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

once again, i am forced to agree lol. Either seeing or feeling would be good enough for me given the right circumstances...so yes. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Cordelia, Auditor

*sigh* I'm starting to think a psychopath created two accounts and is talking to himself as SW and WP. It makes sense to me. But yes, and if they could prove it and explain it, then what? view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think at that point it would mean we believe you. view post


Free will and Sorcery posted 04 December 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionFree will and Sorcery by Sorcerous-Words, Auditor

indeed... and perhaps i already do...but not completly based on past experiences of my own. and if someone is schizo does that make them two or one(joking). i am just at work looking for intelligent conversations. at least for another hour view post


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