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Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 07 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

We know that the Tekne can create various kinds of soulless, organic beings like the dragons, the skin-spies, and the Sranc.

I also read on the debate thread about whether or not skin-spies have souls that the soulless skin-spies don't really have free-will and self-awareness, because they don't possess souls.

So my question is, suppose you use the Tekne to create an exact duplicate of a living human being who can reproduce. Would this human being, who is supposedly an exact duplicate of a human being except that it is soulless, remain soulless? Would it grow a soul, like normal humans? And how would its self-awareness be affected?

My memory of TTT is getting kind of hazy about the exact details mentioned on the self-awareness of non-soulled creatures and the like. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 07 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Harrol, Moderator

Great question. I do not believe Scott has revealed enough of Earwa for us to say one way or another, but i believe the human replicant would be souless. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 07 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Will, Peralogue

Its reasonable that Inchoroi creations can reproduce, see the Sranc. Its reasonable that they can simulate human beings, like the skin spies. Heck, with more effort the Tekne may be able to reliably produce skin-spies with souls like Simas. Thus I'd say that the Tekne can create souled or soulless "humans" (just skin spies without the face trick). I don't know whether one created without a soul can grow one though, that seems unlikely to me. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 07 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Theres a post by Scott on this board that Ive been unable to locate that discusses souls and such and I believe he siad any creature is capable of aquiring a soul though certain means. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 07 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Warrior-Poet":3c1nubre
Theres a post by Scott on this board that Ive been unable to locate that discusses souls and such and I believe he siad any creature is capable of aquiring a soul though certain means.[/quote:3c1nubre]

Presumably the certain means include buying one on Ebay?

Anyway the question of souls is probably one for which we're never going to get an answer - we don't what they are , we don't what they do, and we don't why possessing one should differentiate that individual from a soulless one. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 08 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

The reason I asked is because if you could create a soulless human being that is, for all intents and purposes, identical to an ensoulled human being in terms of thoughts and actions, wouldn't this offer a rather interesting way for the Consult to wash themselves of slaughtering men and introducing the No-God?

I mean, if you could create above, and replace ensoulled human beings with nonsoulled ones, technically both the Consult members and the non-soulled human beings would share the same fate upon death - oblivion. They might not get redemption, but they certainly wouldn't face damnation.

The Sranc always struck me as kind of interesting. Although they are soulless, they seem to have at least some kind of intelligence, the ability to make and use tools, language, and social organization. Although that might be all-inbuilt, those are some complex behavior patterns for animals. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 08 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Short answer: It would be inherently soulless

Slightly longer: Nothing says it may not, for some reason, end up with a soul.

Scott's answer on the subject, which I'm too lazy to look for, can actually be interpreted in more than one way and has been. However the fact that things created by the Tekne are inherently soulless stands.

Earwa has some key metaphysical concepts that make it different from our own world. Of course we've never cloned a human and scientifically we have no definition of the soul or whether one exists so real world rules and logic don't really apply <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 08 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:3p3p0l29
Short answer: It would be inherently soulless

Slightly longer: Nothing says it may not, for some reason, end up with a soul.

Scott's answer on the subject, which I'm too lazy to look for, can actually be interpreted in more than one way and has been. However the fact that things created by the Tekne are inherently soulless stands.

Earwa has some key metaphysical concepts that make it different from our own world. Of course we've never cloned a human and scientifically we have no definition of the soul or whether one exists so real world rules and logic don't really apply <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:3p3p0l29]

I also think that the exact human clone would be soulless. My real concern, though, is whether or not it could be functionally indistinguishable from ensoulled humans. If it is completely indistinguishable from ensoulled humans, then it would probably be a good thing to be a non-ensoulled human.

Like I said, though, the question would be whether it has anything resembling self-awareness without a soul. Like I mentioned, the Sranc seem to have some social complexity, tool-using, and language. What exactly would it mean for them to lack free will, is what I'm wondering. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 08 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Will, Peralogue

Well, the skin-spies lack free will in that they are incapable of true logical thought. The captured one knows it will be tortured and not rescued, and simultaneously knows it will be rescued. The ones talking to Cnaiur tell him that they are &quot;dogs that would rather starve than eat from a hand besides their masters&quot;, or some such. Without independent thought, that is, without the ability to check their premises, it doesn't seem like it would be a good thing.

My reading has been taht they simulate thoght well, but they are basically robotic. Their programming is geared towards achieving ejaculation, and could probably be written as a state machine. Sarcellus' POV chapters describe his thought process.

The broader question of whether or not Tekne style software can create consciousness is not answered in the Prince of Nothign, but it seems to me that the Outside is needed. Skin-spies aren't part of God/Oversoul/Here, they lose.

Ahem, after that rant, to answer your statement. I think that, with sufficient Conditioning, it would be indistinguishable to an observer from a human. I see this as being like the Melissa bot though, just a well trained animal/program. It wouldn't be good to be one, because as a thinking being the idea of lacking self-awareness is terrifying. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 09 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Harrol, Moderator

They have independant thoughts it is just that the consult controls over them are too great. To prove that they have independant thoughts just look at the second skin spy to be Sarcellus. Kellhus told him that he was betraying his masters earlier. Kellhus said that to confuse the skin spy, but the skin spy actually believed that one of his brothers could betray the consult. So the issue is controls that over come thought not that they have no thoughts. They are rather conditioned. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 09 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Guardsman Bass, Candidate

That's what I was wondering. The first Sarcellus skin-spy seemed to be capable of at least a degree of self-reflection in TDTCB; in his first POV section, he was getting excited over the thought that Wow, he might actually be able to screw someone already screwed by the old master!.

Of course, you could claim that this is just very, very deep programming and not &quot;real&quot; consciousness, but then the question arises as to what the boundary between 'consciousness' and 'conditioning so deep that it has all the trappings of consciousness, including when we are seeing things from the point of view of the skin-spy'. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 10 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Entropic_existence, Moderator

In my opinion, based on the musings of both Kelhus and Cnaiur on the nature of the Skin-Spies, there seems to be a distinction between consciousness and the soul. The Skin-Spies are self-aware, but they lack depth. To the casual observer there is no difference, but to people who see a little deeper and know what they are looking for there is a difference. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 10 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:r78nv1js
In my opinion, based on the musings of both Kelhus and Cnaiur on the nature of the Skin-Spies, there seems to be a distinction between consciousness and the soul. The Skin-Spies are self-aware, but they lack depth. To the casual observer there is no difference, but to people who see a little deeper and know what they are looking for there is a difference.[/quote:r78nv1js]

As far as I can recall, Kellhus and Moenghus did not discover the Skin Spies because of their soul or lack of it; it was by purely mundane means. Kellhus recognized the 1st skin spy he encountered (the Nansur emperor's vizier, I can't remember either name) by his facial musculature, (or lack of it). Kellhus opined that Moenghus uncovered the Cishaurim skin-spies thru discrepancies in their voices. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 11 November 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:3hnrmaop
Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:3hnrmaop
In my opinion, based on the musings of both Kelhus and Cnaiur on the nature of the Skin-Spies, there seems to be a distinction between consciousness and the soul. The Skin-Spies are self-aware, but they lack depth. To the casual observer there is no difference, but to people who see a little deeper and know what they are looking for there is a difference.[/quote:3hnrmaop]

As far as I can recall, Kellhus and Moenghus did not discover the Skin Spies because of their soul or lack of it; it was by purely mundane means. Kellhus recognized the 1st skin spy he encountered (the Nansur emperor's vizier, I can't remember either name) by his facial musculature, (or lack of it). Kellhus opined that Moenghus uncovered the Cishaurim skin-spies thru discrepancies in their voices.[/quote:3hnrmaop]

Yes, and I wasn't implying any differently. I was commenting on the reflections we have seen from Cnaiur and Kelhus on the skin-spies. The lack of depth observations of course are from Cnaiur when he is with the pack of them in TTT. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 25 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by dirk69er, Candidate

Skin-spies are capable of having souls. Recall the encounter that Maithanet had with the Simas skin-spy. He mentioned that a skin-spy who had learned socery, who possesess (sic?) a soul. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 26 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Harrol, Moderator

The one skin spy with a soul was an accident that the consult could not recreate. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 26 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Shell, Peralogue

Hmmm, wondering if it could accidently happen again, sort of like some rare genetic disorder that pops up every third generation or something.

I am reminded of the Terminator movies and the Battlestar Galactica series (no spoilers, I'm only on the second season!) - self aware machines with independent thought, yet have some sort of &quot;program/software&quot;, and now can appparently mate and have machine/human hybrids, who will be...soulless? view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 27 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Curethan, Didact

I think it could definatly happen again - most discoveries in our science happen through accidents, then its just a question of working out what happened and reproducing the effect. Interesting that the souled construct just happened to be able to use sorcery tho eh, as a very low percentage of souls can do so. Perhaps it was the forces of the outside intervening again, and this creation has a further role to play in the second apocolypse.... view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 27 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

What if it has happened before, but the only reason the Consult realized that the Simas (since I can't recall any mention of its True Name) had a soul was because it was also one of the Few?

I think we can agree that having a soul is a prerequisite to being able to see/work sorcery, which is the only reason they knew it had one in the first place.

If an ensoulled skin-spy was NOT one the few, how would its soul even be detected? view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 27 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Nerdanel, Peralogue

All Nonmen can use sorcery, so it is possible that all skinspies could too if they had souls. It's hard to say. view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 27 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Harrol, Moderator

Nerdanel the nonmen who can use sorcery are called Quaya (sp) I believe, there fore I do not believe they all posses sorcery view post


Question about the Tekne and soulled beings posted 27 January 2008 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestion about the Tekne and soulled beings by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think I recall reading somewhere that all the Nonmen could and did use sorcery. The Quya were those who made a career of it.
I can't remember where I read it about all Nonmen being able to use sorcery (if I didn't dream it) so I'd like it if someone can help prove this one way or another. view post


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