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Anoxophus, Celmonas II and the nature of the No-God.... posted 01 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

At the end of TTT, someting happened to Achamian to change the nature of Seswatha's dream. Instead of the being with Celmonas and hearing the words of the No-God, he instead is with Anaxophus who says the same words as the No God. Interesting. Any thoughts on what this means as far as the nature of the No-God is concerned? Were these High Kings somehow connected to Mog-Pharu through means unknowned. Is one of Seswatha's dreams in fact a lie? view post


posted 02 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I can not answer all your questions but my thought is that Seswatha's dream changed in order to warn Akka rather than deceive. Akka went through to dramatic experiences with Seswatha. One being the time he was captive to the Scarlet Spire and the other when Kellhus hypnotized him in order to talk to Seswatha. I believe both these experiences opened up a more direct link between Akka and Seswatha. view post


posted 07 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":dgqeycd5]I can not answer all your questions but my thought is that Seswatha's dream changed in order to warn Akka rather than deceive. Akka went through to dramatic experiences with Seswatha. One being the time he was captive to the Scarlet Spire and the other when Kellhus hypnotized him in order to talk to Seswatha. I believe both these experiences opened up a more direct link between Akka and Seswatha.[/quote:dgqeycd5] That begs the question - to warn Akka of what? What could be different about Anoxophus mirroring the words of the No God vs the original dream? Maybe Akka is seeing truth now? Maybe Seswatha's Heart is part of some eleborate ruse? I don't know, just throwing stuff out there. And what do we make of Kellus's No-God dreams. After all, he never even touched Seswatha's Heart! Perhaps he somehow had indirect contact via the hypnotism you mentioned? view post


posted 07 Oct 2006, 20:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Two ideas that would make sense to explain the altered dream, 1) Things happened much differently during the Apocalypse than the dreams depict or a warning of what is going to happen the second time around with Kellhus or one of his sons taking on Anaxophobus' place but on the side of the Consult. Id personally like to see little Moenghus be the new Anaxophobus except evil :twisted: view post


posted 08 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

Evil? heh I question whether Bakker has any concept of good or evil (as we typically define them) in his stories. ;) view post


posted 09 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I believe seswatha perceives Kellhus's weakness and that he is a susceptible to the no-god's influence and the fact that Kellhus listens to the no-god. Those things make him a possible instrument of the no-god more so that an ally of the consult. view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 02:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":3euamoz5]I believe seswatha perceives Kellhus's weakness and that he is a susceptible to the no-god's influence and the fact that Kellhus listens to the no-god. Those things make him a possible instrument of the no-god more so that an ally of the consult.[/quote:3euamoz5] Weakness? It seems to me that Kellus is one of the strongest characters in the series (mentally even moreso than physically). view post


posted 10 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Yes but he has the whole sense of communicating with God. In doing that I believe he is actually openning himself up to be a conduit for the No-god. That is why I mentioned a weakness. view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 00:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":1kbvseie]Yes but he has the whole sense of communicating with God. In doing that I believe he is actually openning himself up to be a conduit for the No-god. That is why I mentioned a weakness.[/quote:1kbvseie] Hmm, is he communicating with (the)God? It did seem he was communicating with the No-God at one point....or that's what he thought. Perhaps there's a clue as to the nature of the No-God here? Kellhus grasps the Thousandfold Thought (what exactly is this anyway?) and seemingly opens himself up to the No-God at this point. There's a clue, but I'm missing it.... view post


posted 12 Oct 2006, 11:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Incu I do not fully grasp it either. I guess with the cumulutive series of events i.e. the Mog Pharu talking to Kellhus and Akka's dreams I have serious doubts about Kellhus now. view post


posted 14 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":ugif8crm]Incu I do not fully grasp it either. I guess with the cumulutive series of events i.e. the Mog Pharu talking to Kellhus and Akka's dreams I have serious doubts about Kellhus now.[/quote:ugif8crm] So do you think Moenghus was correct? Was Kellhus broken by his ordeal? He nearly died in TDTCB from exposure due to his inability to process everything. Being hung in the circumfix by his dead wife wasn't too easy either. I personally don't think he's "lost it", but I guess it's a possibility worth considering. view post


posted 14 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

He has either gone completely nuts, or hes saner than he was before. I havent really decided yet, but im leaning torwards him being broken by the ordeal. view post


posted 15 Oct 2006, 05:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I do not think he was broken but rather he has grasped that there is an outside and I believe he wants a link to the outside. Why I do not know but it seems that at times in his povs that he is actually praying. view post


posted 15 Oct 2006, 18:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

In the way his Father meant broken Id say he is. Kellhus was not what his father wanted when he got there, Kellhus was no longer Dunyain which is what his father required of him, as Kellhus would say he is "more". view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Harrol, Moderator

That is very true. The question hinges around why does Kellhus think he is more? If it is due to outside influence then yes I fear the No-God controling him. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

He thinks he is more because 1) He is cucko for cocoa puffs 2) He has actually spoken to the No-God/ any type of Divine force or 3) He has actually ascended past the TFT. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 05:10 by vercint, Peralogue

I think it could simply be that he's acted out a role for so long that he has come to believe it. Sort of like the Viramsatta game that Moenghus describes, the THT has taken on a life of its own, and Kellhus has become a slave just as everone else. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

That could be true but I think Kellhus's conditioning would bring him out of any delusion of simply acting out a part so long. We still see that Kellhus is past feelings. The example I site is Aurang tempting him. Yes a spell almost caused him to lose control of legion but without that spell Kellhus would totally be untouched by emotions. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:8ksk9gkp]That could be true but I think Kellhus's conditioning would bring him out of any delusion of simply acting out a part so long.[/quote:8ksk9gkp] True if he were still a Dunyain his conditioning would bring him out of any delusions but thats the whole point hes been broken by his ordeal his conditioning cant help him in that regard. view post


posted 16 Oct 2006, 23:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":14gswz0f][quote:14gswz0f]That could be true but I think Kellhus's conditioning would bring him out of any delusion of simply acting out a part so long.[/quote:14gswz0f] True if he were still a Dunyain his conditioning would bring him out of any delusions but thats the whole point hes been broken by his ordeal his conditioning cant help him in that regard.[/quote:14gswz0f] Broken by his ordeal, or tempered? The Dunyain are undeniably supermen, but I think most of us agree that they are a little bit less than human. Kellhus, with Dunyain training and human experience, could indeed be something more than either party. Certainly, in the short term, I see him as a more capable and a more just ruler than Shriah, emperor, or Scarlet Spires. view post


posted 17 Oct 2006, 02:10 by vercint, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":1gx8prpd] Broken by his ordeal, or tempered? The Dunyain are undeniably supermen, but I think most of us agree that they are a little bit less than human. Kellhus, with Dunyain training and human experience, could indeed be something more than either party. Certainly, in the short term, I see him as a more capable and a more just ruler than Shriah, emperor, or Scarlet Spires.[/quote:1gx8prpd] Certainly Kellhus becoming more human than the Dunyain is a good thing. The question is what he means when he says that he is 'more'. It could be as you say that he simply has come to acknowledge emotions and values do exist and do mean something. This would make him a far better ruler than any world-born man. On the other hand it could be that he has come to believe that the lies he has told in order to become Aspect-Emperor are true. If he genuinely believes that he is the Harbringer and chosen by the God and that he cannot do wrong, then you can imagine how he might cease to be a good ruler. view post


posted 17 Oct 2006, 03:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="vercint":68gobd0y][quote="anor277":68gobd0y] Broken by his ordeal, or tempered? The Dunyain are undeniably supermen, but I think most of us agree that they are a little bit less than human. Kellhus, with Dunyain training and human experience, could indeed be something more than either party. Certainly, in the short term, I see him as a more capable and a more just ruler than Shriah, emperor, or Scarlet Spires.[/quote:68gobd0y] Certainly Kellhus becoming more human than the Dunyain is a good thing. The question is what he means when he says that he is 'more'. It could be as you say that he simply has come to acknowledge emotions and values do exist and do mean something. This would make him a far better ruler than any world-born man. On the other hand it could be that he has come to believe that the lies he has told in order to become Aspect-Emperor are true. If he genuinely believes that he is the Harbringer and chosen by the God and that he cannot do wrong, then you can imagine how he might cease to be a good ruler.[/quote:68gobd0y] He believes what the Mandate Schoolmen believe, he hears the No God, and he sees the halos about his hands. He thinks he's the Harbringer. Now whether that makes him a better ruler remains to be seen. :) view post


posted 17 Oct 2006, 17:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I do not have the books right now but if you remember the day before the attack on Shimeh how he played everyone again. Then you see his observations on their physical filthiness and their general stupidity. He then seems to almost be repenting to his"father" for not truly enlightening them. If I remember that scene correctly then I think that he is talking to a higher source. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 03:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

There are a couple of hints that Kellus isn't quite your typical Dunyain. I remember the scene in "The Darkness That Comes Before" where he sits staring at nature all day long, marveled by it's beauty. Either that's an early slip-up by Bakker, or it's a hint that Kellus isn't quite as robotic as his Dunyain brethren. Perhaps he was "corrupted" before he even left Ishual. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 03:10 by Harrol, Moderator

It will be interesting to see in the answers in AE. Scott is such a master of with holding conclusive information. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 04:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="Harrol":6mzcax7p]It will be interesting to see in the answers in AE. Scott is such a master of with holding conclusive information.[/quote:6mzcax7p] Translation: Scott is an evil bastard. :twisted: view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 16:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="Incu-Pacifico":q9il9brd]There are a couple of hints that Kellus isn't quite your typical Dunyain. I remember the scene in "The Darkness That Comes Before" where he sits staring at nature all day long, marveled by it's beauty. Either that's an early slip-up by Bakker, or it's a hint that Kellus isn't quite as robotic as his Dunyain brethren. Perhaps he was "corrupted" before he even left Ishual.[/quote:q9il9brd] I got the impression that that was the affect of not having travelled beyond the largely "conditioned" grounds of Ishual. The utter lack of order, the new species, and the sheer wonder of nature has a similar (though far less intense) affect on ordinary people from "the big city" all the time; consider then, the implications for a Dunyain. Moenghus probably went through the same thing. It's just a stage in the process of leaving Ishual, IMO. Eventually, Kellhus got over it and sought shelter from the rain/elements... and was back to this old self. On the subject at hand though, I think he's both grown and become less since he left Ishual. The reason, of course, is that what "came before" in his case is not something he could "own" (the prophecy). He was predestined; a most irritating fact for a Dunyain... ..and apparently for some of us too. So many of us continue to look on the matter through he eyes of a religious person instead of objectively. So the "haloes" and his surviving Umiaki simply HAVE to mean he is the "savior." And the fact/possibility that he shares those beliefs is what makes him a little "broken"/less than a Dunyain. You can't be objective AND be the vessel of [a] "god" at the same time. Spirituality, which is what a personal realtionship with a diety is, requires a certain amount of (blind) faith. He is more and he is less... than a Dunyain; and that's why I think he is going to be an even cooler character in the next two books. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 17:10 by Harrol, Moderator

Mahajanga Mordecai please forgive the question but are you saying that the evidence points toward Kellhus not being a follower of a higher power due to the lack of blind faith. True enough I have seen no evidence of blind faith on Kellhus's behalf. If I miss understood you then please expound. I found the point you made to be very interesting. view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 17:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Wow. No that's not what I was trying to say at all. <damn you brain> Sorry I tend jumble my meanings. I was trying to say that his belief in his predestination as the harbringer seems to be taking-on on a more religious tint (as per his conversation with Moenghus). Instead of looking at the matter objectively - (that he has been commisioned by a higher power(s) to stand against the Consult) - he's taken the "halo situation" to the next level and started to think of himself as something relative to the prohphet he's lied to the Earwans about being. He's started to show signs of having "blind faith" which means he's slowly losing the objectivity that made it possible for him to conquer half a continent. He'll never be ordinary, of course, but if he goes too far with this manner of thought, I can see how he will (unwittingly) become Mog's accomplise instead of his adversary. What was Scott's quote? - The more certain we are, the more certain we are to be deceived. (or something like that) view post


posted 18 Oct 2006, 23:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":t65zmmx2]Wow. No that's not what I was trying to say at all. <damn you brain>............I was trying to say that his belief in his predestination as the harbringer seems to be taking-on on a more religious tint (as per his conversation with Moenghus). Instead of looking at the matter objectively - (that he has been commisioned by a higher power(s) to stand against the Consult) - he's taken the "halo situation" to the next level and started to think of himself as something relative to the prohphet he's lied to the Earwans about being. He's started to show signs of having "blind faith" which means he's slowly losing the objectivity that made it possible for him to conquer half a continent. ...................[/quote:t65zmmx2] I am not so sure that Kellhus believes in his own predestination as much as has been suggested. Certainly he has sold the lie to his followers (but does not every prophet do that?); the idea that even he is being deceived by his lies is a good one - he is in effect rationalizing and justifying the blind faith that the Inrithi invest in [i:t65zmmx2]him[/i:t65zmmx2]. However, he has at times voiced his doubts on predestination, on prophecy, and his Dunyain training must surely disavow any such possibility. His apparent belief in himself as a harbinger may therefore be open to question. In some part of his prodigious brain, he may fully realise that his position as prophet is a means to an end: to lead all of the Three Seas against the Consult. view post


posted 19 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

By telling his Father that he is the Harbringer and speaks to a higher being shows that he certainly believes he is aprophet of some sort because telling his father that as a lie would serve Kellhus no purpose. view post


posted 19 Oct 2006, 01:10 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":3ulkur7f]By telling his Father that he is the Harbringer and speaks to a higher being shows that he certainly believes he is aprophet of some sort because telling his father that as a lie would serve Kellhus no purpose.[/quote:3ulkur7f] Unless he wishes to show his father that his (K's) ordeals have deranged him. And, in fact, from memory, during that conversation Kellhus thinks to himself, "let him think that I waver". That conversation between two Dunyain is beyond me, plots within plots within plots. I don't know how to interpret it; each protaganist was unwilling to show his hand, to speak beyond generalities; Moenghus himself had the reasonabe suspicion that Kellhus was going to kill him; Kellhus knew that Moenghus would defend himself. You may be right; then again Kellhus may think he is that [i:3ulkur7f]higher being[/i:3ulkur7f], greater than the Dunyain, greater than any sorceror (like that old joke, "I must be a God, because when I was praying, I realized that I was talking to myself"). Anyway as harbinger, self-perceived or otherwise, he has his work cut out. view post


posted 19 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I loved the way they were both slipping in and out of the propability trance during their encounter. I missed the part about Kellhus allowing Moe to be deceived. I do remember the part were he told his father If you refuse me anything I will kill you. I will go back back and reread that section again more carefully. view post


posted 19 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Its my favorite part of TFT. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 01:10 by Incu-Pacifico, Peralogue

[quote="anor277":5gf2jxp9][quote="Warrior-Poet":5gf2jxp9]By telling his Father that he is the Harbringer and speaks to a higher being shows that he certainly believes he is aprophet of some sort because telling his father that as a lie would serve Kellhus no purpose.[/quote:5gf2jxp9] ...You may be right; then again Kellhus may think he is that [i:5gf2jxp9]higher being[/i:5gf2jxp9], greater than the Dunyain, greater than any sorceror (like that old joke, "I must be a God, because when I was praying, I realized that I was talking to myself"). Anyway as harbinger, self-perceived or otherwise, he has his work cut out.[/quote:5gf2jxp9] He believes he's the Harbringer and Bakker provides a few clues. Kellus sees the halos about his hands. This was something that until that moment was only revealed from the viewpoints of other characters. When this was mentioned from their viewpoints, I thought these were fake visions caused by their idolation of Kellus. There was no indication that Kellus actually saw these himself or that these were real until his dialogue with Moe. Also, Moe knew nothing about the haloes and so Kellus had nothing to gain by lying to him about them....and I doubt lying would work anyway. Also, his use of words like "wicked" when describing the Consult is meaningless in normal Dunyain discourse (as revealed explicitly by Moe). Yes he may have been trying to throw his father for a loop, but I think Bakker would have mentioned this. I also believe a Dunyain would use far subtler techniques to fool another Dunyain. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 19:10 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Indeed. As Akka said, "what he said was to naked [i:2uyji2v3]not[/i:2uyji2v3] to be true" - or something to that affect (although Akka was talking about Cnaiur at the time... you get the point). All the signs point to him finally accepting his destiny as the harbringer. I'm not sure if he thinks of himself as a "prophet" per se, but he does seem to be adopting a thought-pattern not too far removed from such. How that will lead to him (unwittingly) assisting Mog instead of fighting him is a bit difficult to explain. Give me a moment. view post


posted 20 Oct 2006, 22:10 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I believe Kellhus truly thinks that he has been chosen by God to save the world, etc. Through his experiences he seems to think that because certain things happened to him that it must be true(i.e him finding water in the desert, or his trial on the Umiaki. view post


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