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Dunyain Intellectual Bankruptcy posted 28 Sep 2006, 20:09 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

There is no doubt that the Dunyain teach a variety of useful mental and physical skills, but it is equally clear that their entire philosophy is intellectually bankrupt and their hierarchy is dishonest. Despite claiming to be seekers for the truths of things they systematically isolate themselves from all sources of information and banish or destroy any evidence that leads to contrary conclusions. They systematically supress evidence of the Outside (and sorcery, since the two are linked) because it conflicts with their ideology. They are, in their own way, almost as bound to What Comes Before as the world born. For the Dunyain their is only What Has Been Decided At Ishual and those who threaten that are banished or slain. To be fair, their great intellectual abilities allowed Moenghus and Kelhus to quickly adapt to the true circumstances of the world. Thoughts? view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 00:09 by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

gee, that description sounds familiar.. where have i seen somethign like that.. view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 03:09 by vercint, Peralogue

I think it's a bit like that bad reality show called CNN a couple years back. Pretty boring episode, in all. CC, the Dunyain are not 'seekers of truth' (that would be a certain Richard Rahl); they seek to become a 'self-moving soul'. To achieve this they isolate themselves so that the 'outside' can't influence them. They believe the truth is found within, not in the world around them. They know the world is out there (although they have no idea what it looks like) but they just don't want to be part of it. To be part of the world is to be moved by it; only in isolation can one hope to become self-moving. view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 04:09 by Harrol, Moderator

It does appear that they try to remove certain elements of the world in order to better become a self moving soul. To them so what if they lie in order to achieve their gaol the less variables the better. view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 05:09 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

[quote="vercint":b9fdm3ut] CC, the Dunyain are not 'seekers of truth' (that would be a certain Richard Rahl); they seek to become a 'self-moving soul'. To achieve this they isolate themselves so that the 'outside' can't influence them. They believe the truth is found within, not in the world around them. They know the world is out there (although they have no idea what it looks like) but they just don't want to be part of it. To be part of the world is to be moved by it; only in isolation can one hope to become self-moving.[/quote:b9fdm3ut] That's only partially true. The Dunyain deny the existence of the Outside because of the implications it has on the power of "what comes before" and the influence it can on the world and the soul. They have chosen to deny the existence of Outside not because it isn't important (the Outside connects to the world through souls after all) but because it doesn't fit their nice theory. Their withdrawl from the world is equally dishonest, for they have substituted the preconceptions of Inshual for those of the world, not eliminated preconceptions all together. The best illustration of this is that both Moenghus and Kelhus have better understandings of the nature of the soul once they enter the world. And lastly, since the name Dunyain means "truth", for them to deliberately lie about the nature of the world is dishonest. view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 12:09 by Harrol, Moderator

That leads to the next question. To the Dunyain what is truth. Is the truth freeing your soul? If that is the case then all other lies are justified by the ends. I do not state that to imply that the Dunyain need to justify anything. To them they need only take the shortest path. view post


posted 29 Sep 2006, 18:09 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

[quote="Harrol":3fqkqy1r]That leads to the next question. To the Dunyain what is truth. Is the truth freeing your soul? If that is the case then all other lies are justified by the ends. I do not state that to imply that the Dunyain need to justify anything. To them they need only take the shortest path.[/quote:3fqkqy1r] Of course they need to justify their actions. That they don't is why they are in danger of following the Consult onto the path of mass genocide. Disregard for moral consequences doesn't mean they don't exist. view post


posted 03 Oct 2006, 06:10 by vercint, Peralogue

[quote="Cynical Cat"] Their withdrawl from the world is equally dishonest, for they have substituted the preconceptions of Inshual for those of the world, not eliminated preconceptions all together. The best illustration of this is that both Moenghus and Kelhus have better understandings of the nature of the soul once they enter the world. And lastly, since the name Dunyain means "truth", for them to deliberately lie about the nature of the world is dishonest.[/qoute] You're right that the Dunyain have simply substituted one set of preconceptions for another. Eliminating all preconceptions is impossible. The Dunyain are different on that they make their preconceptions explicit. The world-born don't know [i:gyb71p5h]why[/i:gyb71p5h] they do things -- this is why Moenghus and Kellhus, who can see the [i:gyb71p5h]why[/i:gyb71p5h], control them so easily. The Dunyain know their [i:gyb71p5h]why[/i:gyb71p5h] -- to achieve the self-moving soul -- and they understand how they have been indoctrinated. This makes them far less dishonest than any other society. [quote="Cynical Cat"] Of course they need to justify their actions. That they don't is why they are in danger of following the Consult onto the path of mass genocide. Disregard for moral consequences doesn't mean they don't exist.[/qoute] This is only true if there are in fact moral consequences. In Earwa (unlike our own world) it seems there are in fact moral consequences to one's actions, although there is no absolute certainty on the subject. The Dunyain believe morals are invented buy human societies, and that there are no real moral consequneces. If there are indeed moral consequences, then the Dunyain have been operating on false premises all along, and are likely to burn in hell for it. As you point out, the isolation of Ishual reinforces the Dunyain beliefs because they are not exposed to any ideas save those of their own devising. They must have destroyed all memory of sorcery and theology a long time ago, based on a concious choiceand a belief that their own ideas were superior to those of worldly society. Of the two Dunyain exposed to the world, Moenghus maintains the Dunyain belief, while Kellhus comes to believe in moral consequences -- although conveniently enough, he stand above them because he is the Harbringer. The PoN series does not resolve which belief is actually correct. view post


posted 03 Oct 2006, 08:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Considering that they Dunyain destroy all sorcerous marks and paraphenalia when they arrive at Ishual 2000 years ago, we can assume their anti-sorcery beliefs are old and arrise during a time when the existence of sorcery was obvious. As for resolution on the subject of morality and the Outside, I doubt we will get it. If we do I doubt it will happen before the last book, which is some time away. Dunyain beliefs on the nature of reality no more credible than that of Young Earth Creationists for the same reason: both ignore evidence in preference to holding on to what they would prefer to be true. The Dunyain world view ignores the Outside which is not the same as the various worldly attitudes which only partially understand the Outside. Whether or not there are consequences for various actions in the afterlife is something that we don't know for sure. It is interesting that the Inchoroi do believe such consequences exist and that the Nonmen who appear to have different values than human are probably the source of those Inchoroi beliefs. I look foreward to future books and future illumination on this subject. view post


posted 03 Oct 2006, 12:10 by Harrol, Moderator

I missed the part where Earwa had young earth creationist. :) view post


posted 03 Oct 2006, 21:10 by Cynical Cat, Auditor

[quote="Harrol":3l1tredd]I missed the part where Earwa had young earth creationist. :)[/quote:3l1tredd] I'm sure its somewhere in the Books of the Tusk. :D view post


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