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Logos is theft posted 14 August 2006 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Oneiskey, Commoner

Howdy all.

This is my first post, so forgive my presumption, but I wanted my subject line to catch your attention.

I'm a little more than halfway through TWP, and it occurs to me that Kellhus' faith in the Logos amounts to little more than an excuse for theft. The Conditioned are nothing more than thieves, taking without giving, like the hunger that the Consult constructs cannot quench. It's appealing to a degree, but then you see through it like he can see through faces, and see the depth of its bottomless selfishness.

In fact, I'd go even further and say that Logos is more than simple theft, but theft to the extreme--by which I mean rape and murder. Kelhus may tell himself that those he meets are already practically giving themselves to him before he even opens his mouth, but an open door doesn't need lead to destruction of the house. To me, this is what makes him, and not Cnauir, truly "The Most Violent of Men."

It's also ironic that he's considered by most of the Holy War as a man with something important, even divine, to teach them, yet he really teaches them nothing and it is they in the end who teach him. His humility then seems both a mask and a reflection of his true face. He's still learning, and realizing how much he still has yet to learn. I don't know whether to love him or hate him, but he's definitely one of the most fascinating characters I've ever read.

And speaking of the Conditioned--and this is perhaps not the most apt comparison--but in a way they seem a lot like Jedi, whose teachings are in some ways the same (such as the denial or at least the control of one's passions). The Conditioned, like the Few, are jealous guardians of their knowledge, unwilling to share it with anyone. This is what strikes me the hardest about Kellhus--that he never once considers training someone else to become one of the Conditioned. He's apparently the last, not counting his father, so wouldn't he want to somehow pass along his knowledge, have someone succeed him and take up the cause?

Is the reason he hasn't taken on an apprentice or student because to him, if you're world-born, you're simply "defective" like the specimens kept in the depths of Ishual, good for nothing more than to be used by the Conditioned? Or, like the Jedi, does age play a factor? If Esmi or Serwe couldn't become one, could Serwe's child become a Dunyain?

If that last question is answered by the last book, don't tell me. I want to find out on my own. But I'd appreciate any thoughts anything else I've said! view post


Logos is theft posted 14 August 2006 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by gladius, Commoner

he's not the last. I think that here are still many in their fortress monastery

he is probably the first of a new kind... view post


Logos is theft posted 30 March 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Trutu Angotma, Peralogue

the dunyain use the logos not as a tool for theft, but as the supreme reality of life. mission is key to them, by whatever means are neccesary, even if deciet is involved. to them, passion, feelings, even possesions are meaningless, so using another for ones own purposes has nothing to do with thier goals.

and the world born, mostly, ARE inferior to the dunyain. they have breed for 2 millenia for intelect and understaning, so even a dimwitted dunyain would outshine the smartest world born child. kellhis would only attempt to teach a full dunyain the true path. view post


Logos is theft posted 30 March 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Jamara, Auditor

I kind of view the Dunyain like Vulcans. The Logos is logic. They follow the teachings of logic and suppress thier own emotions in order to advance the ultimate goal of creating a self-moving soul. view post


Logos is theft posted 30 March 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by TheDarkness, Peralogue

right. feelings and emotions come out of the darkness. one must tame the "legion" within ones self and become the self movng soul. it is a constant chanllenge but most likely made easier when Kellhus sees such weakness in the men around him.

The Logos...the shortest path. to find the shortest path one must steer clear of all distractions. view post


Logos is theft posted 19 June 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Callan S., Auditor

Know those beatles who learn the antenae movements to prompt ants to give them food? That's the dunyain.

I wouldn't describe as theft though, but betrayal right at level of blood. The dunyain are humans, who wouldn't exist if not for the aspirations and efforts of humans before them. Their complete disconection from world born, where they offer nothing to that which brought them a chance to exist here, is betrayal of origin.

It's actually more logical the way world born by and large work together. The dunyain, while it values itself, ignore the origins of what it values. This is much like pushing your queen forward without being protected by pawns, simply because they are pawns and worldborn. That's an irrational move, somewhere in their history, and carried forward perfectly by their exacting discipline.

Damn I'd love a book about their history as refugees! See, I always thought Kelhus is a complete non character, like a cyclone or avalanche in a story isn't a character. The only character you see in him is when he briefly feels for Esme's safety, or when he briefly hurts at hearing a consult say (correctly) she doesn't really love him.

He's empty - he's just a reflection of some choice someone made, wayyyy back in the refugee period and carried through perfectly. I want to see what tipped the avalanche off! view post


Logos is theft posted 19 June 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Callan S., Auditor

Quote: "TheDarkness":7y85ss7v
right. feelings and emotions come out of the darkness. one must tame the "legion" within ones self and become the self movng soul.[/quote:7y85ss7v]

Yeah, but why? Why become a self moving soul? The books never get into exactly what in the darkness that comes before decided on this. Never mind that if it is moved to find it, it is an impossible goal - moved to find a way of not being moved? It's a goal that cancels itself. view post


Logos is theft posted 06 July 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Cohen, Peralogue

Ahhh... indeed, WHAT COMES BEFORE! is it by seeing the shortest path to the end of "it's" mission? To a Dunyain mission is everything. The term Darkness represents the movement of ones soul, and by mastering why a soul is moved you can determine what comes after.

Maybe...Who f**** knows!


I don't think I do...yet. view post


Logos is theft posted 21 November 2007 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Israfel, Peralogue

Not sure I'm getting the way people are construing the issue here, but the way I saw it, the Logos, or rather the Dunyain's use of it to make the rest of the world their slaves rather than just "slaves of the world" (as they put it) was not so much theft - though they are certainly stealing other's usual volition, as far as that goes - as getting ignoring/doing away with a problem of morality that crops up sometimes; that there is a difference for you morally between killing someone yourself and letting them die. Or of someone else killing someone or you killing them. It says if someone else isn't as aware of their actions as you, or if their actions can be manipulated by you instead of by events that just happen, you are fully justified in taking advantage of that and using any means to achieve your aims. So I'd say the theft comes from a deeper source really... view post


Logos is theft posted 10 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Uroborian Circles, Candidate

Any man who would utilize reason and rationality should also make use of mercy and compassion.

My friend calls me on the phone telling me that his mother is very sick in the hospital and he needs someone to keep him company. For me to do so would be irrational because I'd have to take off of work and I desperately need the money.

And yet... I do it anyway.

You have to question yourself:
"Well this is the right thing to do... but it's insane! It's impractical. To do so would be foolish."
"Well this is the logical thing to do... but it's heartless. It's selfish and unforgiving."

The serpent beneath you will show you the shortest path through the forest. It will lead you to many places and reveal many things and take you to thresholds of understanding that most will never pass through.

A guardian is needed above you however. One that pulls you back from those thresholds just before entering so as to say, "Enter. Know much. Pass on... Beware of everything you stand to lose though. There is alchemy that turns the lead spirit into gold and there is alchemy that turns the lead spirit into shit."

Balance in all things is the highest path, if not the shortest.

You may not reach your destination quicker... But you'll be awarded a better view for the journey. view post


Logos is theft posted 12 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Nerdanel, Peralogue

The shortest path through the forest will also lead you to thickets and over cliffs that you could avoid just by going around them, making the shortest path in many cases not the quickest one.

If you are mean to people and only use and discard them for your selfish ends you might have accomplished your current purpose the most effective way but made an enemy in the process, so that accomplishing future goals is harder. view post


Logos is theft posted 12 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

I think Scott covers this point best, in one of the quotes that opens a chapter early into tDtCB. I don't remember it exactly, but this is close enough to see which one I mean:

To be ignorant is to be a slave of the world. To be used(?) is to be a slave of another. Why, when all men are ignorant, and thus already slaves, does this latter slavery sting us so?

This is the way Kellhus views the issue. To him, why should it matter that he is enslaving slaves? view post


Logos is theft posted 12 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Israfel, Peralogue

Yeh, it's a totally silly point of view though... People die every day, killed by the world in earthquakes and such. Many are killed by other people in many different situations. All of which detracts not a jot from the fact that you're still morally responsible when you yourself kill them. Agency is a pretty key concept in moral thought... view post


Logos is theft posted 12 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Nerdanel, Peralogue

Is someone who is a slave to themselves really a slave? I don't think so.

If you think reacting a predictable way is being slavery what would free will be? Acting randomly? If free will was acting randomly I wouldn't like to have free will. All rational actors are in some sense predictable, since only a small subset of all possible actions make sense.

The hypothetical self-moving soul would not be motivated by sensual pleasures, love, hate, custom, loyalty, curiosity, success, self-preservation... Unable of being moved by the world, it would be immobile, or else move according to patterns that have nothing at all to do with the world. As long as the self-moving soul still resided in the world, its movement might as well be random, since they would be extremely unlikely to be "sane" in the sense of contributing to its continual survival.

The self-moving soul means essentially solipsistic insanity, which is not a positive trait in the real world. view post


Logos is theft posted 12 January 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Mandati Wannabe, Candidate

Quote: "Nerdanel":1xslaz94

The self-moving soul means essentially solipsistic insanity, which is not a positive trait in the real world.[/quote:1xslaz94]

I disagree, I think it means you would be completely in control of yourself. It doesn't necessarily means you close yourself off to anything outside of yourself, merely that you actually THINK of what you are doing, and more importantly, why, before you do it.

The idea of the Dunyain, from my perspective, is that humans are capable of free will, but that what most people view as their own free will is a total illusion. How can you truly call it your own "free will" when you are merely responding, as you have been conditioned to, to events outside your control?

Every one of the people who follow him do so willingly. He doesn't force anyone to do so. view post


Logos is theft posted 09 March 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Zarathinius, Auditor

Quote: "Mandati Wannabe":2bqfjxql
Quote: "Nerdanel":2bqfjxql

The self-moving soul means essentially solipsistic insanity, which is not a positive trait in the real world.[/quote:2bqfjxql]

I disagree, I think it means you would be completely in control of yourself. It doesn't necessarily means you close yourself off to anything outside of yourself, merely that you actually THINK of what you are doing, and more importantly, why, before you do it.

The idea of the Dunyain, from my perspective, is that humans are capable of free will, but that what most people view as their own free will is a total illusion. How can you truly call it your own "free will" when you are merely responding, as you have been conditioned to, to events outside your control?

Every one of the people who follow him do so willingly. He doesn't force anyone to do so.[/quote:2bqfjxql]

You've taken the words right out of my mouth. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Logos is theft posted 08 June 2008 in The Warrior ProphetLogos is theft by Athjeari, Peralogue

Ahh I have noticed a lot of people equating Kellhus's actions to what is good or bad - morally right or wrong or compassionate
Remember that all of these things have been created by man.

Kellhus does not (using the example from above about the friend with a sick mother) look at the situation as if he'd be a dick if he didn't spend time with the friend.

Look at it from this point of view. What is your goal? Several communications specialists believe that all communication is goal oriented. What is your goal in hanging out with that friend who needs you? (I am willing to bet the reason you did it wasn't so much for them as it was for you, don't think this is heartless it's just the way human beings are and your goals could be good beneficial goals tool; they don't have to be self centered goals but they are YOUR goals)
You may have wanted to show that you care about the person or that you can be counted on, or something along those lines.
The point being that Kellhus follows the shortest path. He doesn't think about making friendships closer he thinks, &quot;if I make this person believe we are close friends than I will be that much closer to my goal.&quot; -- he does not think of anything negatively - negativity is a man made construction.
What I feel is funny is that in doing so he tends to look like a good guy. The reason being is that he knows if he burns a lot of bridges things will be harder for him. Why kill people and make yourself suspect when you can befriend and make them willing want to help you? It would not make sense to NOT try and befriend people even though he isn't really their friends.
Man I could go on and on about this topic but I need to stop because I am truly getting lost in my thoughts and am having trouble typing them coherently. If need be I'll wait for a response to elaborate further. view post


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