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War in Lebanon posted 24 July 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

I wanted to get other peoples veiw on what is happening between Hezbollah, Israel and the people of Lebanon that are caught in the middle. view post


War in Lebanon posted 25 July 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Entropic_existence, Moderator

War sucks, innocent people get hurt, and I usually always see issues I agree with on both sides in many circumstances. The innocent people of Lebanon don't deserve to get caught in the middle but Hezbollah is getting what they need. At least Isreal makes even a cursory effort to minimize civilian casualties. Hezbollah likes to fire unguided rockets at civilians on purpose.

Of course my opinions are far more complicated but thats it in a nutshell. view post


War in Lebanon posted 29 July 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Iago, Candidate

Quote: "Entropic_existence":r6ys6mac

Of course my opinions are far more complicated but thats it in a nutshell.[/quote:r6ys6mac]

Of course of course... view post


War in Lebanon posted 31 July 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Quote: "Entropic_existence":21vzxneq
At least Isreal makes even a cursory effort to minimize civilian casualties. Hezbollah likes to fire unguided rockets at civilians on purpose.
[/quote:21vzxneq]

i admit that i'm mostly ignorant on the issue, as i try to avoid watching the news these days, but from what i've seen, i'm not sure this is true. any time that i do hear something, it's about how isreals rockets hit a hospital, or a school, or so on.

either way, both sides are at fault, so as far as i'm concerned, they can bomb the hell out of eachother. view post


War in Lebanon posted 31 July 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

i admit that i'm mostly ignorant on the issue, as i try to avoid watching the news these days, but from what i've seen, i'm not sure this is true. any time that i do hear something, it's about how isreals rockets hit a hospital, or a school, or so on.

either way, both sides are at fault, so as far as i'm concerned, they can bomb the hell out of eachother.


Do not worry Gierra they most certainly will. This fight needs to be able to reach its conclusion which appears to be the destruction of Hezbollah. The international force sent there will lack the fortitude to truely keep the peace. view post


War in Lebanon posted 01 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "gierra":23rok1vq
Quote: "Entropic_existence":23rok1vq
At least Isreal makes even a cursory effort to minimize civilian casualties. Hezbollah likes to fire unguided rockets at civilians on purpose.
[/quote:23rok1vq]

i admit that i'm mostly ignorant on the issue, as i try to avoid watching the news these days, but from what i've seen, i'm not sure this is true. any time that i do hear something, it's about how isreals rockets hit a hospital, or a school, or so on.

either way, both sides are at fault, so as far as i'm concerned, they can bomb the hell out of eachother.[/quote:23rok1vq]

True, and Isreal isn't as careful as it could be (which is why I said cursory). Of course that hezbollah actually likes to hide in civilian buildings greatly complicates the matter when your waging an air campaign. I personally think most military engagements should be done with boots on the ground but that can actually result in just as high civilian casualties and collateral damage.

Definitly a tricky issue view post


War in Lebanon posted 01 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Hellscythe, Auditor

You know what really pisses me off?The fact that Hezbollah is nothing more than a puppet, controlled by Syria and Iran. I mean, think about it. Iran is probably afraid of Israel flying in and taking out their nuclear reactor like Israel did in Iraq in the 80's. So what does Iran do? It tells Hezbollah to go and start a war with Israel, keep everyone from paying attention to Iran while Iran goes about continuing to refine plutonium, despite the entire international community's repeated declarations against it. view post


War in Lebanon posted 02 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "Hellscythe":5y6vb2th
You know what really pisses me off?The fact that Hezbollah is nothing more than a puppet, controlled by Syria and Iran. I mean, think about it. Iran is probably afraid of Israel flying in and taking out their nuclear reactor like Israel did in Iraq in the 80's. So what does Iran do? It tells Hezbollah to go and start a war with Israel, keep everyone from paying attention to Iran while Iran goes about continuing to refine plutonium, despite the entire international community's repeated declarations against it.[/quote:5y6vb2th]

Yup, and of course with that whole "veto" thing the permanent members of the UN security council have the UN's hands are tied making it completely ineffectual at enforcing the will of the international community. view post


War in Lebanon posted 03 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Primal, Peralogue

Imagine a crowd of people. There's this one guy standing off by himself, a strong individual type. Other people surround him, and they all hate him because he's different. The guy isn't the good guy or the innocent here either. He, too, has enmity. There is no good or bad side in the crowd; just people that hate and distrust each other. No one really wants to mess with the lone guy 'cause he's strong. But they do taunt him throughout the years, and finally one person throws a rock and gashes the lonewolf in the forehead. The lonewolf turns around and socks him a couple of times, and before he really gets into the beating, some other entities, that he respects, step in to try to stop him.

Why do these others step in? Either they feel it's their duty or their own sense of self-importance to step in or they're trying to maintain an image of peacemakers-and-keepers or they don't want to feel the pressure of the crowd saying they didn't do anything or whatever. It's like the momentum of something occurring, but then for whatever reason, perhaps inexplicable, someone intervenes. Maybe they feel it'll be a bad consequence for all. But they don't really know. They just assume all fighting is bad. What if that rockthrower really needed a good beating? "Words will never hurt me, but sticks and stones and Israel's fists will break my bones."

My point is this: step aside Condie. Don't fucking interfere. Let it happen.

I'm not for either side. I am for letting them hash it out. As for civilians getting caught in the middle...in our modern wars, most likely there will be collateral damage. Also, it's nearly impossible and impractical to isolate the supporters of Hezbollah from the innocent in Lebanon. Thus, bombs away. view post


War in Lebanon posted 04 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "Primal":3jb3n5el
Imagine a crowd of people. There's this one guy standing off by himself, a strong individual type. Other people surround him, and they all hate him because he's different. The guy isn't the good guy or the innocent here either. He, too, has enmity. There is no good or bad side in the crowd; just people that hate and distrust each other. No one really wants to mess with the lone guy 'cause he's strong. But they do taunt him throughout the years, and finally one person throws a rock and gashes the lonewolf in the forehead. The lonewolf turns around and socks him a couple of times, and before he really gets into the beating, some other entities, that he respects, step in to try to stop him.

Why do these others step in? Either they feel it's their duty or their own sense of self-importance to step in or they're trying to maintain an image of peacemakers-and-keepers or they don't want to feel the pressure of the crowd saying they didn't do anything or whatever. It's like the momentum of something occurring, but then for whatever reason, perhaps inexplicable, someone intervenes. Maybe they feel it'll be a bad consequence for all. But they don't really know. They just assume all fighting is bad. What if that rockthrower really needed a good beating? "Words will never hurt me, but sticks and stones and Israel's fists will break my bones."

My point is this: step aside Condie. Don't fucking interfere. Let it happen.

I'm not for either side. I am for letting them hash it out. As for civilians getting caught in the middle...in our modern wars, most likely there will be collateral damage. Also, it's nearly impossible and impractical to isolate the supporters of Hezbollah from the innocent in Lebanon. Thus, bombs away.[/quote:3jb3n5el]

There are actually fewer innocent casualties and less collateral damage in the wars we have now than say WWI and WWII. Hell we fire bombed entire german cities, look at the reconstruction that was required. Of course now we can't have symmetric wars anymore. We have to fight urban geurilla wars against non-state entities. It tends to make things quite difficult all around. view post


War in Lebanon posted 04 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Iago, Candidate

one of the reasons the JAG officers are included in TST (time sensitive targetting) cells is because we are encumbered by too many restrictions on what is an acceptable target. You guys would not believe the list of all the restricted and no fire targets we have in the databases for every country (including our own, curiously...). The problem is that non-conventional military organizations don't fight by the same rules we (and our allies, mostly) do, but are aware of the restrictions we place upon ourselves, so they intentionally do not wear uniforms and fire from restricted/no fire areas like mosques, schools, hospitals, etc... The bottom line though, is they HAVE to die or be neutralized, so in the end there is no real way of getting around collatoral damage. When lebanese kids stop looking up to hezbollah as heroes and freedom fighters, and middle class neighborhoods start reporting hezbollah activity as the terrorist activity that it is (vice not agreeing with but not reporting), then the climate will be right for normalized relations between israel and lebanon.

i think. view post


War in Lebanon posted 06 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Primal, Peralogue

There are actually fewer innocent casualties and less collateral damage in the wars we have now than say WWI and WWII. Hell we fire bombed entire german cities, look at the reconstruction that was required. Of course now we can't have symmetric wars anymore. We have to fight urban geurilla wars against non-state entities. It tends to make things quite difficult all around.


Yeah, that's true about urban guerilla warfare. It's also true for state entities, such as rogue states or weaker states. That's happening right now with Hezbollah and Israel. Israel can't distinguish bystanders from the enemy, so they fire into the cities. It's harder for Hezbollah to engage in direct confrontation with Israel because artillery units can pinpoint the sources of incoming mortar/rocket rounds and reply in kind (Israel have superior military and equipment). So they try to put pressure by firing into the population.

What I said before about the Policy of Interference... A Uganda soldier, who's seen alot of combat, was telling me about situations in Africa and America, the UN and other powers. In effect, this is what he said:

Whenever there's unrest and conflict, these other powers converge and try to negotiate peace. All they do is talk peace. But how can we have peace when there is still blood on the table? In our world, there are no laws. No one respects the laws. When presidents are elected, they will change the laws and stay in power forever. They also control the ballots and the money. Men in power care only for themselves and abuse the masses. When we try to have revolution, other powers will come. They say they will donate money. They say they will talk to our leaders about change. They have donated money and they have talked again and again and again. Nothing has changed. Let us have our revolutions as many times as it takes.

The Uganda soldier didn't have alot of words for the concepts he was trying to communicate but I understood him well enough. view post


War in Lebanon posted 07 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

Primal that is a good point. I believe from what I see those fights must be allowed to meet their conclusion. If not they seem to just smolder and later on reignite. I believe that the day will come when America leaves Iraq and Afghanistan and whent he U.N. leaves the former Yugoslav area that the fights there will flame back up worse than ever. view post


War in Lebanon posted 08 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Sokar, Auditor

First, since when do Yanks care for international community..?
Second, Iran told Hezbollah to fight Israel to keep attention from its nuclear ambitions (I hate this word)..?
Third, let them bomb each other..?
Fourth, it is a necessity to kill kids, and destroy a necessary infrastructure, as long as we get that one Hezbollah..?
Fifth, ignorance is a bliss, as long as the ignorant does not cross to wanne-be intellectual, supposedly understanding the situation...

The only sensible thing is that Uganda soldier, though he has nothing to do with what is happening in Lebanon the last weeks... view post


War in Lebanon posted 08 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

First, since when do Yanks care for international community..?


Well Sokar that is very wrong and jerkish of you and a horrible way to make a point. But maybe being rude and obnoxious is just the way people were you are from are! I do not like to slander Sokar but you need to get off your little self righteous pulpit and understand every country tries to munipulate events to their advantage. view post


War in Lebanon posted 09 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Hellscythe, Auditor

:Sighs: And yet again, here comes another smart-mouth foreigner who thinks to enlighten us with their supposed knowledge of how we in the U.S do things. So sokar, you come from England, cause if you do, I wonder where you get off preaching, when up until the 1950's you actually had "colonies". I mean, the reason why the middle-east is so full of tension is because of the action the british took, carving out a Jewish state in what was palestinian lands. view post


War in Lebanon posted 09 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by alhana, Auditor

I am not an expert on Middle-Eastern Politics, but I think that the US backed Israel just as much, if not more than England did in creating a Jewish State.

Additionally, England's colonization had almost nothing to do with the current condition of Middle-Eastern politics. This place has a blood freud that pre-dates the times of Jesus Christ, before England was even a country.....or the US....or really of the "so called" super powers of the UN today. The land that Palastine and Israel and Iraq and Iran all sit on have been in conflicts and struggles since almost the beginning of written history.

There are also factions of the "religious right" in the US who believe that it is the "god-given" responsibility of the US to back Israel as they believe that it is written in Scripture that the US will be involved in Armagedon. In essence, many present day Christians (meaning both Catholics and Protestants) believe that at the end of the world a country from the West (most today think this will be the US) will be involved in a God Ordained Battle of the Ages. It is laughable at best that the UN or anyone thinks that any kind of "Western intervention" will settle this age old dispute, though many believe the West SHOULD be involved for religious and scriptural reasons.

I personally believe that it is not for me to worry about. Whether or not the US is involved, there will be war in the Middle East until the people who live there are tired of fighting. view post


War in Lebanon posted 09 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Primal, Peralogue

First, since when do Yanks care for international community..?
Second, Iran told Hezbollah to fight Israel to keep attention from its nuclear ambitions (I hate this word)..?
Third, let them bomb each other..?
Fourth, it is a necessity to kill kids, and destroy a necessary infrastructure, as long as we get that one Hezbollah..?
Fifth, ignorance is a bliss, as long as the ignorant does not cross to wanne-be intellectual, supposedly understanding the situation...


About that last statement...you're right, Sokar, you shouldn't cross over.

Now, what's your reasoning behind your questions?
1.Why do you believe Yanks don't care for international community? For many reasons--economical, christian-faith and goodwill, political and geographical stability, public image, etc--the US has been involved in the international community (recent indonesian tsunami and the military relief comes to mind).
2.Iran and Hezbollah to fight to Israel to keep attention from its nuclear ambitions? Is what you heard in the news? Do you believe this, why, and is this the only reason Hezbollah is fighting Israel? Do you really believe the world will overlook Iran and the nuclear issue? A little off-issue here, but there are rumors that Iran and Syria are funding Hezbollah to cause damage to Israel. This may be true or not.
3&4. In WWI and II, the US didn't stop Brits and Germans from bombing each other. Rather, they stepped in to help the Brits. Scenario: a sniper is shooting at you and your children (say you have 100 children) from a building that contains 100 of his children. The only way to stop him is to drop a bomb on the building, also killing the children. Do you let him kill your children or do you drop the bomb on the building? Hezbollah is killing
children too, btw.

Also, no one really has the complete perspective on situations. But there are different levels of understanding, and some approach the truth. And whatever approaches the truth, we accept as an approximation of truth.

You're free to express your cynicism and ignorance. And I'm free to disagree.

Remember that post on history by Aldarion and we were discussing the "mentalite". Obviously, you had a hard time understanding what I said that gierra understood pretty well. You then proceeded to response with some nonsensical shit, reminding me how a large percentage of posts are by people or pseudo-intellectuals-or-philosophers who speak out of their asses. At that point, I chose not to response. I didn't even want to argue with you here, but I had to back Harrol and the other posters.

Harrol, you're right in saying that countries, to some extent or other, manipulate events to their advantage.

Alhana, I agree the bad blood that's been going on for thousands of years needs to be spilled before they can have peace. view post


War in Lebanon posted 11 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Sokar, Auditor

Harrol -> My understanding of politics goes beyond the statements I made..which should have been obvious...

Hellscythe -> I am not from England, your point is completely ridiculous...

Primal -> We all are pseudo-intellectuals here, if I ever find a real one, I'll let you know... But to respond to what you say:

1. The comment was made due to the war with Iraq, international community, democracy and human rights have been completely disregarded by the US (and still are).. I have never mentioned that a state follows the common good in the first place, or that it even should. The comment is a response to the previous comments of others (you should really read other posts, before you try to crack me down...) And if you are really interested, read [url=http://www.policyreview.org/JUN02/kagan_print.html:37nvg73q]this[/url:37nvg73q], quite insightful, even if I don't completely agree with him..
2. Same thing, read the other posts... (oh..and cause damage to Israel? Do you have any idea at all..?)
3 & 4. There is much more to the US action during the WWII.. The "German question" has still not been solved, that is at least what some scholars believe. I am not going to go too deep into it, just look up the reasons why there is still a US army in Europe (Maerscheimer, if I spell it correctly)
And your scenario is incomplete to the current situation, it doesn't make sense.. You disregard the socio-economic factor, the political one and the security issues completely.. Not to mention the histoty...
5. I never said that I actually understand the situation as a whole, if I would, my first post wouldn't be so cynical.. There are, however, people who try to analyse things with news they pick from CNN (or whatever else you have in the US). Just to show you the difference between CNN and BBC (again, I am not a Brit):
CNN -> Israel's view - 70%, international view - 25%, Lebanon - 5%
BBC -> Israel's view - 40%, international view - 40%, Lebanon - 20%

Think of the reasons, they are quite interesting...

edit: added a URL view post


War in Lebanon posted 11 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

Sokar,

This last post of yours was a littlie more detailed and therefore it did not just look like a rant. Your first post on this subject looked like an obnoxious rant. In reply no your understanding of politics is not obvious by your first or even second post on this topic. By the way since you have the courage to insult America as a country why don't you have the courage to tell us where you are from? In stead of being cryptic and just letting us know you are not from England. view post


War in Lebanon posted 11 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

he's from the netherlands, he said it in another thread. view post


War in Lebanon posted 11 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Wasnt that just a little tattletalish gierra. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


War in Lebanon posted 14 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Entropic_existence, Moderator

All major news organizations (including the BBC) are becoming more and more driven by the need to sensationalize in order to sell news. Whether the bias is hard right or hard left it is almost impossible to fully trust the media these days, which is sad. You always expect some bias, especially in editorials, because reporters and news people ARE human. But in my opinion the state of the media today is not to report the news or the truth it is toi give you opinion.

Colbert's &quot;truthiness&quot; I think applies to the modern media more than any other word.

As for the Middle-East, a detailed reasing of the history of the region will go to show that everyone has a hand in the instability of the region. Traditionally much of the region is clan based. You protected your Wadi, your herd, and your people from any and all strangers. The sands of the region are soaked in the blood of those who have died over the course of thousands of years.

This only gives you an appreciation of the background from which the various cultures of the are grew out of. If you look at the area more in the modern area you have the British pulling out of their Middle Eastern colonies and in many cases arbitrariloy setting the borders for new nations. Sometimes this worked and sometimes it didn't.

A two state solutiuon for Isreal/Palestine that put Jerusalem under the control of the International community may have worked better than what is there currently, or some variation of that. Perhaps a full One State 100% secular nation may have worked bettee than what exists now. Either way the question becomes how to fix it, and I'm not sure if anything will work better than simply letting everyone beat the crap out of each other will. view post


War in Lebanon posted 14 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by gierra, Sorcerer-of-Rank

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:3q6jwvmh
Wasnt that just a little tattletalish gierra. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:3q6jwvmh]

as if being netherlandish is a bad thing? view post


War in Lebanon posted 14 August 2006 in Philosophy DiscussionWar in Lebanon by Harrol, Moderator

Well put Entropic. view post


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