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The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Curethan, Didact

Lot of musings on various threads about the possibility of the Dunyain allying with the consult. The consult is certainly after the dunyain because of Kellhus and the Thousandfold Thought. Seems likely to me that they'll find 'em at some point before the AE, BUT

I think that the point about the alliance with the consult specifically related to Moenghus if you read that exchange again. Kellhus goes on about Moenghus' sins;
"when you come to believe, will be no different from the inchoroi. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness ... and you will war as they war"

The consult and the dunyain have completely diferent aims. In general, the dunyain will choose death rather than to pervert their mission to aprehend the logos, reach enlightenment and create a self moving soul - which would precede everything, and therefore exist outside the circle of the world - which would be impossible if the world was closed off wouldn't it? (rather different from escaping damnation wouldn't you say?).

How this can be seen as basically the same as the consult's goal of destroying the world so they can avoid damnation and spend enternity finding new ways to masturbate is beyond me...

So, as I see it, the Dunyain seek to escape the world and achieve the absolute even though they believe the world is already sealed. And remember - they arrived at Ishual during the first appocalypse - so they could have allied with the consult back then. And the finding of an Anasurimbor when they arrived at Ishual was a great correspondance of cause...

But, you know, I'm really good at being wrong so...[/i] view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Cause, Candidate

Personally I see the majority of the dunyain remaining absoloutly nuetral in the conflict. They dont want to pollute themselves so except for a few agents, kellhus, I think scott has promised a female dunyain in the future and a few others most are not going to go very far from ishual.

I further think that if they do take part it wont be on the part of the consult. The no-god breaks the cycle of souls. Every baby is born soulless and as a result cant live. It will destroy the dunyain mission, training future generations to be better and better untill enlightenment. All humans will die out it will be just a matter of time. Further while moenghus had to fear for the damnation of his soul, due to his callous use and manipulation of people for decades (his feeding of live prey to the skin spies for instance) most dunyain I think wont suffer this problem as tey have not done anything wrong, although than gain they treat the defectives like lab rats.

A final thought and perhaps slightly of topic but sorta connected. kellhus claims to be the warrior prophet and legitimizes sorcery. However whether he is a real prophet is doubtfull and hence sorcery would still be damned if we accept the tusk as true. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Zadok, Candidate

I don't think the Dunyain would side with the Consult to avoid damnation, rather because the Outside is a force that cannot be controlled or dominated. As such it is an obstacle to their goal of creating a self moving soul. Also, the entire human population need not be wiped out to close off the outside. So the Dunyain training could proceed as it had before, after all they are almost completely isolated anyway. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Curethan, Didact

A final thought and perhaps slightly of topic but sorta connected. kellhus claims to be the warrior prophet and legitimizes sorcery. However whether he is a real prophet is doubtfull and hence sorcery would still be damned if we accept the tusk as true.


I think he was saying at the end of TTT that his new world order involves replacing Inrithism and Fanimry - so he can rewrite the tusk however he likes. Exactly who or what sits in judgement of souls and determines damnation is never made clear though.


I don't think the Dunyain would side with the Consult to avoid damnation, rather because the Outside is a force that cannot be controlled or dominated. As such it is an obstacle to their goal of creating a self moving soul. Also, the entire human population need not be wiped out to close off the outside. So the Dunyain training could proceed as it had before, after all they are almost completely isolated anyway.


Seem to be doing just fine anyway, and like cause said, it's impossible to practice eugenics when you can't have children. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well Kellhus was merely speculating but I think it is safe to extrapolate his reasoning to the Dunyain as a whole, not merely Meonghus. We've discussed the reasons why the Dunyain would find a motivation to side with the Consult if it ever happened in other threads, ultimately if the world isn't closed they can't achieve their mission so which would they pick? Failure or Pollution? They would probably sacrifice several of their number to pollution to do what needed to be done, and then kill them afterwards. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Cause, Candidate

why cant they continue their mission if the outside still exists. I will argue that the orginal dunyain knew of sorcery and therfore knew of an outside and did not seem to think it therfore made their mission impossible. It might expand their mission, now they will need to understand sorcery and master the outside as well.

And again they are generations away from success and the no god destroys the cycle of souls therefore future life. the mission will end prematurly. and a failure. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 19 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Curethan, Didact

Well, yeah. In the prologue of TDTCB one of the first things they do is to burn the grand vizier's books and chisel the sorcerous runes from the walls - they have rejected the gods etc, which is different from not believing in them.

They seek to master that which lies within the circle of the world, only by isloating themselves from the polluting influence of the rest of the world (and that includes the consult) can they achieve this. Their conectedness to the outside and the physical world is important - they need it in order to access the logos - but they isolate themselves from the viramsata that walk the ground of other souls by their isolation. That is Moenghus' sin - that he pollutes their sanctuary with the Thousandfold Thought by sending his dreams.

The world being closed would end their quest I think - no more eugenics, no more viramsata, nothing new could enter the circle and the enlightened soul they seek to produce certainly would be able to step outside the circle of the world. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 21 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:2xlaquv8
Well, yeah. In the prologue of TDTCB one of the first things they do is to burn the grand vizier's books and chisel the sorcerous runes from the walls - they have rejected the gods etc, which is different from not believing in them.

They seek to master that which lies within the circle of the world, only by isloating themselves from the polluting influence of the rest of the world (and that includes the consult) can they achieve this. Their conectedness to the outside and the physical world is important - they need it in order to access the logos - but they isolate themselves from the viramsata that walk the ground of other souls by their isolation. That is Moenghus' sin - that he pollutes their sanctuary with the Thousandfold Thought by sending his dreams.

The world being closed would end their quest I think - no more eugenics, no more viramsata, nothing new could enter the circle and the enlightened soul they seek to produce certainly would be able to step outside the circle of the world.[/quote:2xlaquv8]

I don't see the Logos as having inherently anything to do with the Outside, it seems to be more... real world/logically oriented than anything.

There may be alternatives to natural breeding programs like the Dunyain have been doing if they were to side with the Consult. After all the senior human Consult Sorcerors are over a thousand years old.... view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 23 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Mandati Shinigami13, Commoner

perhaps the idea that Kellhus puts out of 'everyone being a point of the outside' that he makes to Akka could explain some of it. Perhaps the ultimate goal of the Dunyain to sever this tie, as the consult would, or perhaps learning of it, could attempt to truly connect themselves to it-although that is probably about as anathema as you can get for them. And that idea about the dunyain mastering the tekne... ooh lordy would that be bad. Although the unpassion of the Dunyain and the bestiality of the Consult wouldn't mix all that well, however the synthese was able to produce a response from Kellhus after he possesed Esmi, that is worrying. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 23 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Curethan, Didact

So why didn't they sign up during the first apocolypse....


The Dunyain knew of sorcery, the gods and the outside when they first went to Ishual, but these were things that they could not master, things that would interfere with their mission. Therefore they isolated themselves from them. They are ignorant of them now by choice, their environment is completely under their control. Any pollution is isolated, mastered, contained and/or removed. They do not seek to destroy or master the world, only their immediate environment.

They do not care what happens after they die, they seek to create an enlightened being - not become one. Each Dunyain is one step closer to their goal, but is ultimately a flawed being which must ultimately be discarded. They are useful inasmuch as they advance the forms of training, pass on their knowledge etc, but sooner or later they must die and give way to the next link in the chain. If they take a backwards step, or become contaminated.... skritch!

Their focus is not to close the world. They need to be isolated to continue their work, they require unmolested, conditioned ground, but once they have achieved their goal - a self moving, enlightened soul, what then?


I don't see the Logos as having inherently anything to do with the Outside, it seems to be more... real world/logically oriented than anything.


Well, what is the logos? As an idea it must exist in the outside. Kill all the Dunyain, and where is it then? It's use pertains to the world and is a supreme tool in manipulating the souls and actions of men, and as such is as much a part of the outside as scripture, which purports to be the word of god!

Imo, the Dunyain are working with the outside as much as any sorcerer or chishuarim, they have isolated themselves within the real world so that they have access to a part of the outside that is &quot;blank&quot; (i.e. their own &quot;pocket dimension&quot;) Their &quot;god&quot;, or meme or viramsata is the logos, the dunyain are it's conditioned ground, it moves them and through them.

They work with the outside and its dichotomous relationship to the real world and master both through the use of the logos - which is reason untouched by emotion. To do this they must be unsullied by the rest of the world; kings, people, sorcery, gods, the consult anything that they do not control. That which cannot be controlled must be eliminated - but the self moving soul will be able to master and control any situation and will certainly walk through and change the world and indeed the outside. view post


The consult/Dunyain alliance? posted 24 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe consult/Dunyain alliance? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Dunyain only really came into existence during the Apocalypse I believe. They may have existed in some form before then but I was under the impression that they philosophy and such developed as a result of the atrocitiies and brutality observed during the Apocalypse. They didn;t claim Ishual until afterwards remember.

As for any of the debate about possibilities of a Dunyain Consult alliance the speculation and motivations I have presented, and others have discussed, are based purely on possible pragmatic desires the Dunyain may have now as well as the opinion of Kellhus. I don't know whether they would or not, and don't really want to say whether I even think they would or not. Just extrapolating on what motivations mat be and discussing those. view post


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