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The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 04 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Cynical Cat, Auditor

As of the end of the book, there are two trained Dunyain in the Three Seas (to the best of our knowledge) Kelhus and Maithanet. However, Kellhus is fairly certain that he will have a Dunyain child with Esmenet. He is Dunyain and she has at least an above average intelligence ( I don't recall any references to her reflexes). With the proper training, their child will be a Dunyain (and possibly one of the Few).

Maithanet is the product of the same kind of decision. Moenghis would have chosen a woman with the desirable characteristics (intelligence and reflexes) to pass down to their child. The Dunyain aren't superhuman after all, merely occupying the higher end of human intelligence and reflexes. It is the combination of those traits with Dunyain training which produces extraordinary results.

So what next? Are there more sons of Moenghis? Has Maithanet put his own plans into play? Will Kellhus train others who have the right potential? view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 04 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Cynical Cat":2ayxi4p3
As of the end of the book, there are two trained Dunyain in the Three Seas (to the best of our knowledge) Kelhus and Maithanet. However, Kellhus is fairly certain that he will have a Dunyain child with Esmenet. He is Dunyain and she has at least an above average intelligence ( I don't recall any references to her reflexes). With the proper training, their child will be a Dunyain (and possibly one of the Few).

Maithanet is the product of the same kind of decision. Moenghis would have chosen a woman with the desirable characteristics (intelligence and reflexes) to pass down to their child. The Dunyain aren't superhuman after all, merely occupying the higher end of human intelligence and reflexes. It is the combination of those traits with Dunyain training which produces extraordinary results.

So what next? Are there more sons of Moenghis? Has Maithanet put his own plans into play? Will Kellhus train others who have the right potential?[/quote:2ayxi4p3]


While the children of Esmenet and Kellhus may be prodigally intelligent, and his/her father may try to train them in Dunyain techniques (this also goes for Moenghus jr as well), it's hard to see Kellhus recreating a little Dunyain, one that competes with the training Kellhus received. As to Maithanet, Moegnhus himself said that he was not Dunyain, i.e. he is no doubt highly intelligent and perceptive and capable of long term planning, but he is nowhere near the equal of his father or his half brother, both of whom were trained in Ishual.

Back in Ishual, when Kellhus recalls his training, there is the implication that had he not grasped the final principle his teacher (whose name I cannot recall) would have casually killed him, i.e. Kellhus was another defective. This would be reasonably hard to do with world born children (even in the Three Seas, where sons and daughters are casually sold into slavery). Perhaps Kellhus will even become a good father.

As to the other children of Moenghus (and I agree that might be several, cf Cnauir's mother but her bastard was killed), they will probably grow up to be quite intelligent . Without Dunyain training, they are likely to be imprisoned by circumstance. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 05 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Kellhus specifically refers to Esmenet as a potential mother of Dunyain children and he is, as of the end of the book, he is not short on resources. As for Maithanet, I am not inclined to underestimate him. Just because he was not "fully Dunyain" the last time he was around Moenghus does not remove his potential for growth. Moenghus hasn't seen him for years and from our limited exposure to the Shriah, he seems to have a formidable grasp of Dunyain disciplines. He is a master of men's hearts, able to recognize Skin Spies, and has no compunction about personally engaging them (albeit with the advantage of surprise). Maithanet may not be the equal of Kellhus or Moenghus (or Moenghus could be wrong), but he is clearly capable of using Dunyain training in a highly effective manner. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 05 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

That doesn't make you Dunyain. Being Dunyani is more than superior intellect and strength/reflexes, it's a genetic inheritance. The Dunyain have spent the better part of two millenia in the process of selective breeding. Interrupting that process with a specimen (woman) outside of the selective community means that you lose half of the capabilities that are inherent to that communities offspring.

Yes the Dunyain's child will be stronger, faster, and smarter than the average world-born child due to the genetic superiority of the father (as well as the extensive training the child will receive) but the kid will never be a true Dunyain; no amount of training is going to change that. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 06 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Mahajanga Mordecai is correct, having Dunyain training(nearly impossible outside Ishual) and a Dunyain father does not make you Dunyain you must be born into the Dunyain community with the selective inheritance and training only Ishual could provide. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 06 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Quote: "Warrior-Poet":1uyocw52
Mahajanga Mordecai is correct, having Dunyain training(nearly impossible outside Ishual) and a Dunyain father does not make you Dunyain you must be born into the Dunyain community with the selective inheritance and training only Ishual could provide.[/quote:1uyocw52]

Lets take this one step at the time

1) The Dunyain are selectively bred humans. All the traits they possess are those that humans possess. They have been selected for high end intelligence and reflexes, things which also occur in "wild" humans. They Dunyain are still human, they just possess specific genetic traits.


2) They are extensively trained and conditioned. There is nothing magical about Ishual that makes it the only place that can provide that training. What Ishual has is the resources, a structured enviroment, and instructors. Kellhus will have access to the entire resources of an empire and is quite familiar with the what is required to train Dunyain.

3) In some areas, specifically the metaphysical and sorcerous, Dunyain training is not merely insufficient, it is erronous.

4) Maithanet displays all the traits of a Dunyain, even if his skills are in Moenghus's judgement (a man who has been wrong several times) inferior. Even if a Dunyain trained in the Three Seas is inferior to one trained at Ishual, they are still formidable. They can still spot Skin Spys, engage them in battle, and manipulate the hearts of World born men. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 15 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Virus, Candidate

1) The Dunyain are selectively bred humans. All the traits they possess are those that humans possess. They have been selected for high end intelligence and reflexes, things which also occur in "wild" humans. They Dunyain are still human, they just possess specific genetic traits.


They were far more isolated, their genetics are far superior even if some traits occur in wild humans. Even with their impeccable eugenics, they still have defectors, what are the odds of a mongrel becoming anything comparable to a Dunyain?

2) They are extensively trained and conditioned. There is nothing magical about Ishual that makes it the only place that can provide that training. What Ishual has is the resources, a structured enviroment, and instructors. Kellhus will have access to the entire resources of an empire and is quite familiar with the what is required to train Dunyain.


They are born in darkness and live in darkness; how would Khellus be able to have his kid be born in a cave and then leave him there without instilling suspicion in his followers? How would he be able to live in the cave 24/7 to train the kid while running an empire?

4) Maithanet displays all the traits of a Dunyain, even if his skills are in Moenghus's judgement (a man who has been wrong several times) inferior. Even if a Dunyain trained in the Three Seas is inferior to one trained at Ishual, they are still formidable. They can still spot Skin Spys, engage them in battle, and manipulate the hearts of World born men.


Mongrel Maithanet is able to pave the way and not create it. The Holy War is an example. He created the momentum, but left the men to their own devices. This is probably a weak example but Moenghus has had 30 years to judge the power of his son, so I doubt he is wrong. view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 21 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by brandon, Candidate

As said, the dunyain have selectively bred for 2000 years. Through basic evolution that will result in a level of intelligence and motor skills that no world born person could come close to reaching. two people with an IQ of 300 will produce a far more intelligent child than one person with an IQ of 300 and one person with an IQ of 140 (figures pulled completely out of my arse, but u get the picture). so only a child of two dunyain parents has even the potentiall to become dunyain (with a hell of a lot of hardcore training). view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 21 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Cause, Candidate

Actually theirs no proof as of yet if being born to smart parents will make you smart. When you realise that their are hundreds of alleles coding for intellegance perhaps thousands and that some may be reccesive and some dominant theirs no telling what the result may be. Its entirely possible that kellhus and esmis child is born retarded or perhaps he will be twice as smart as kellhus. No telling what esmis wild genes will create and in truth betold even in ishual this sort of breeding should be iffy at best view post


The Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. posted 21 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Future Dunyain of the Three Seas. by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Cause is right about genes, and something I think people often forget is that many people born in Ishual are not geniuses and the Dunyain root these out from their tests like finding their way through the Labrynth beneath Ishual theres a passage in one of the books where it mentions that many die during the test, so although refined genes play a part in making Dunyain the tests and training is what makes someone truly Dunyain. view post


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