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Kellhus's sorcery... posted 18 Apr 2006, 22:04 by n0g0d, Candidate

Kellhus uses the gnosis presumably...to a higher level than any Mandati actually. But because he does it "properly", as he has acquired TTT, he is not marked. Is Kellhus immune to such artifacts as chorae? Since the "psukhe" is basically a failed imitation of Kellhus's personal enlightened view of what sorcery is( the Cishaurim also do not bear the mark), does that mean that Kellhus can practise Cishaurim magic. He also has other powers, glowing hands and so on. Some sort of sainthood power...why does he have to rely on abstractions? He does communicate with God, but is he not ready to simply bend reality w/o using Gnostic words? :twisted: view post


Re: Kellhus's sorcery... posted 18 Apr 2006, 23:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="n0g0d":3crmjd49]Kellhus uses the gnosis presumably...to a higher level than any Mandati actually. But because he does it "properly", as he has acquired TTT, he is not marked. Is Kellhus immune to such artifacts as chorae? Since the "psukhe" is basically a failed imitation of Kellhus's personal enlightened view of what sorcery is( the Cishaurim also do not bear the mark), does that mean that Kellhus can practise Cishaurim magic. He also has other powers, glowing hands and so on. Some sort of sainthood power...why does he have to rely on abstractions? He does communicate with God, but is he not ready to simply bend reality w/o using Gnostic words? :twisted:[/quote:3crmjd49] The Psukhe existed before Moenghus arrived among the Fanim, it is not an offshot of Moenghus' attempts to obtain the TTT, in fact Moenghus is actually one of the weaker Cishaurim as far as his sorcerous ability goes, he is well respected and feared for his other philosophic talents and certain areas of the Psukhe that he excels at. Similarly Kelhus' master of the Gnosis and using a second inutteral string (which is what makes him able to do much more complex sorceries) is not part of the TTT (at least I don't think it is, I saw them as two seperate things). I don't know think we ever saw it stated that he was not Marked. He has only been working Sorcery a short time which is why he is not yet Marked and no, he is not invulnerable to Chorae that I know of. No one has quite figured out yet why his hands glow, and Scott isn't talking. Kelhus appaears to be becoming a Shaman, a Sorceror-Prophet like in the Chronicles of the Tusk. Not really sure about the idea of "saintly powers" though. He still uses gnostic Sorcery for what he does. (Other than his pure Dunyain tricks) view post


Re: Kellhus's sorcery... posted 19 Apr 2006, 00:04 by anor277, Didact

[quote="n0g0d":1bo1r345]Kellhus uses the gnosis presumably...to a higher level than any Mandati actually. But because he does it "properly", as he has acquired TTT, he is not marked. Is Kellhus immune to such artifacts as chorae? Since the "psukhe" is basically a failed imitation of Kellhus's personal enlightened view of what sorcery is( the Cishaurim also do not bear the mark), does that mean that Kellhus can practise Cishaurim magic. He also has other powers, glowing hands and so on. Some sort of sainthood power...why does he have to rely on abstractions? He does communicate with God, but is he not ready to simply bend reality w/o using Gnostic words? :twisted:[/quote:1bo1r345] As far as we know Kellhus is now marked and he certainly is vulnerable to chorae - witness his action after he "teleported" to Shimeh, he conjured a vortex of whirling debris around him to protect himself from chorae projectiles. When he plucked a bolt out of the air with a chorae attached, this was a tour de force made possible only by his preternatural reflexes (had he grabbed the hot end he would have regretted it). As regards his sorcerous powers, certainly it is not yet mature - he is unpractised and inexperienced though possessed of enormous potential. Achamian himself said that he (A) would have been able to overcome him (K) as a sorceror; and the Cishaurim primaries in concert were apparently more than his match on the occasion above. Doubtless Kellhus' sorcerours power will develop in the next few years under Mandate teaching - to the extent of surpassing his teachers (the Mandate quorum, as Achamian had warned them, are in for some interesting times). To echo EE, Kellhus' mastery of the thousand fold thought was something separate from his sorcery after all he grasped TTT well before Achamian's teaching. As a prophet, or someone sent by God, we simply don't know yet whether he is authentic or not. Kellhus once asked Achamian "do you think the God would be anything but remote?" (I'm paraphrasing). It may be that he is simply taking the marks, world-born men, along for a ride - that was Moenghus' conclusion. When does AE come out? view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 02:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I don't even know in what stage of authorship it is in yet. I'm assuming it's in at least a preliminary stage but I also know Scott's been busy with final revisions of Neuropath as well. I would imagine it will be another year to two before AE hits the shelves. view post


Re: Kellhus's sorcery... posted 19 Apr 2006, 08:04 by n0g0d, Candidate

[quote="anor277":3fhjfjaa] As far as we know Kellhus is now marked and he certainly is vulnerable to chorae - witness his action after he "teleported" to Shimeh, he conjured a vortex of whirling debris around him to protect himself from chorae projectiles. When he plucked a bolt out of the air with a chorae attached, this was a tour de force made possible only by his preternatural reflexes (had he grabbed the hot end he would have regretted it). [/quote:3fhjfjaa] I see. This is quite interesting, that though he lectured Achiaman about the use of magic and how all schoolmen were wrong he still uses the Gnosis. The Cishaurim, were probably closer to Kellhus's insight into what [b:3fhjfjaa]sorcery really is[/b:3fhjfjaa], at least conceptually. [quote:3fhjfjaa] As regards his sorcerous powers, certainly it is not yet mature - he is unpractised and inexperienced though possessed of enormous potential. Achamian himself said that he (A) would have been able to overcome him (K) as a sorceror; and the Cishaurim primaries in concert were apparently more than his match on the occasion above. Doubtless Kellhus' sorcerours power [u:3fhjfjaa]will develop in the next few years under Mandate teaching [/u:3fhjfjaa]- to the extent of [i:3fhjfjaa]surpassing his teachers (the Mandate quorum, as Achamian had warned them, are in for some interesting times)[/i:3fhjfjaa]. [/quote:3fhjfjaa] You are certainly correct in saying that Kellhus will become even more powerful as a sorceror. He could even be strong enough to fight the Mandate quorum which is the strongest sorcerous group that we know of currently([i:3fhjfjaa]I wouldn't like being in that room without a chorae[/i:3fhjfjaa]). [quote:3fhjfjaa] To echo EE, Kellhus' mastery of the thousand fold thought was something separate from his sorcery after all he grasped TTT well before Achamian's teaching.[/quote:3fhjfjaa] My contention was that as he grasped TTT, he also grasped what magic was in essence. All Schoolmen and even the Non-men, though they learned the rules and had some insight into magic never did grasp it. Awakening to TTT, Kellhus removed his heart from his chest and his hands started glowing. Then again his inspiration about the Shrial nights and Cishaurim occurred earlier...[b:3fhjfjaa]Kellhus will certainly learn more from the Gnosis but I would like to think that he will develop a parallel [i:3fhjfjaa]Shamanic[/i:3fhjfjaa] school of magic.[/b:3fhjfjaa] Being Dunayn, he might even be interested in learning about Water, from Cishaurim libraries that haven't been burned down. Being Aspect Emperor he might learn from the other Schools though their sorcery is weaker than the Gnosis. [/b] view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 13:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Psukhe is not closer to Kelhus thoughts on Sorcery than the Gnosis. Remember the Psukhe is primarily emotive, driven by passion and "rememberance of the Gods heart". The Dunyain are all about intellect, which is why Moenghus failed. His path to sorcery took him to the Cishaurim, which was a dead end for growth. A dunyain is inherently crippled when it comes to the Psukhe. The Gnosis is driven by intellect, it is remembering the Gods voice, this is why he can excel at it because the Dunyain are intellect. I don't think he can start a Shamanic school because one necessity to being a Shaman is to be a Prophet. You either are a Prophet or you aren't, you can't really be taught that. It's even debatable whether Kelhus really is a Prophet or not, of course he seems to see the halos as well. and is puzzled by their existence. (Also the ripping out of the heart was a trick he didn't rip out his own heart he ripped out Serwe's heart but made it seem like it was his own as a trick. Scott has answered that on the Q&A board and apologized for the confusing writing in that section at the end of TWP) view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 13:04 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

1. Kellhus is "marked". Akka commented on it in TTT. 2. The Pshuke is largely inaccessible to Dunyain Few. 3. Cognitive sorcery recalls the god's mind not his voice. 4. Kellhus DID rip out his heart. Scott never said the statement was wrong just confusing. He ALSO ripped out Serwe's. To recap the removal of his own heart, read the musings of Eleazares in the beginning of TTT. I have yet to understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Tribal peoples from South America and Africa have been temporaily removing their inner organs for quite some time, though the reasoning for it is lost to me; irregardless, it's not new. Scott just took it to the next level and made the removal permanent. view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 15:04 by Primal, Peralogue

[quote:31hf2zth]As regards his sorcerous powers, certainly it is not yet mature - he is unpractised and inexperienced though possessed of enormous potential. Achamian himself said that he (A) would have been able to overcome him (K) as a sorceror; and the Cishaurim primaries in concert were apparently more than his match on the occasion above. Doubtless Kellhus' sorcerours power will develop in the next few years under Mandate teaching - to the extent of surpassing his teachers (the Mandate quorum, as Achamian had warned them, are in for some interesting times).[/quote:31hf2zth] The scene you were referring to with Achamian saying he would have been able to overcome him: this was before Achamian started teaching him actual cants, before Kellhus spoke with Seswatha. Also, that battle against the Cishaurim already confirmed Kellhus's power. It is true that he will become more powerful. [quote:31hf2zth][/quote:31hf2zth] view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 16:04 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I agree with EE and Mahajanga. Im just not understanding where some of your ideas are coming from when most of your questions have been answered in the books and by Scott himself. view post


posted 19 Apr 2006, 23:04 by n0g0d, Candidate

[quote="Warrior-Poet":2gepdqi0]I agree with EE and Mahajanga. Im just not understanding where some of your ideas are coming from when most of your questions have been answered in the books and by Scott himself.[/quote:2gepdqi0] Well my idea is that it is quite possible for Kellhus to transcend the cognitive side as well as the emotional side of sorcery. He does show how both are actually limited. Maybe because of time he relied on the Gnosis. That was all he had at that point. Ideally he should go further. Then again is he capable of that. Is there limits to the abilities his lineage has conferred to him? view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 03:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="n0g0d":w6nmz4ng][quote="Warrior-Poet":w6nmz4ng]I agree with EE and Mahajanga. Im just not understanding where some of your ideas are coming from when most of your questions have been answered in the books and by Scott himself.[/quote:w6nmz4ng] Well my idea is that it is quite possible for Kellhus to transcend the cognitive side as well as the emotional side of sorcery. He does show how both are actually limited. Maybe because of time he relied on the Gnosis. That was all he had at that point. Ideally he should go further. Then again is he capable of that. Is there limits to the abilities his lineage has conferred to him?[/quote:w6nmz4ng] We've discussed this in a few other threads, I for one don't think he will master or even learn both. They are radically different and the Dunyain appear pretty crippled in the emotional department. Kelhus has seemed to regain some of that, maybe I'm still a little doubtful on that score though. The Psukhe also required blinding, as I have stated in a thread on the Q&A board, and Scott seemed to agree with me, is that we really don't know how this would affect Gnostic/Anagogic sorcery. See the discussions that Iyokus and the Grandmaster had after Achamian took Iyokus' eyes. "Do you remember what it is to see?" Cognitive based sorcery depends on purity of meaning. If you are born with sight it shapes your entire world view. Lose that sight and after awhile you forget what it is to see. That is most likely going to change the purity of your meaning, which could have disasterous effects with cognitive sorcery. Kelhus is going to be super enough as it is, I don't think we need to turn him into God. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 04:04 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

[quote:2w6m3ebd]Kelhus is going to be super enough as it is, I don't think we need to turn him into God.[/quote:2w6m3ebd] I certainly hope he doesn't become that powerful hes got to have some kind of a challenge from his enemies otherwise the books would suck. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 13:04 by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

[quote="Primal":12gzkwzr][quote:12gzkwzr]As regards his sorcerous powers, certainly it is not yet mature - he is unpractised and inexperienced though possessed of enormous potential. Achamian himself said that he (A) would have been able to overcome him (K) as a sorceror; and the Cishaurim primaries in concert were apparently more than his match on the occasion above. Doubtless Kellhus' sorcerours power will develop in the next few years under Mandate teaching - to the extent of surpassing his teachers (the Mandate quorum, as Achamian had warned them, are in for some interesting times).[/quote:12gzkwzr] The scene you were referring to with Achamian saying he would have been able to overcome him: this was before Achamian started teaching him actual cants, before Kellhus spoke with Seswatha. Also, that battle against the Cishaurim already confirmed Kellhus's power. It is true that he will become more powerful. [quote:12gzkwzr][/quote:12gzkwzr][/quote:12gzkwzr] Actually this is incorrect. Aurang attacked Kellhus the same day Xinemus died. Recall that Kellhus had to use a Ward to protect himself from the lustful cants Aurang used. Akka refused to report to the Umbilica to be de-briefed on the Consult's attack BECAUSE of Xin's death which is when Kellhus went to find him and the event occurred. Kellhus had long since spoken with Seswatha by the time Xinemus died. Also, it was once Akka hit the ground that he began canting noting that he could take Kellhus "STILL," suggesting that despite what Akka had already taught him he wasn't powerful enough to kill Achamian yet. You are correct that that will change very soon; especially with the Mandate Grandmaster as his new teacher. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 13:04 by n0g0d, Candidate

So Kellhus is going to be an extremely powerful sorceror. I thought that his understanding of how marking and non-marking occur would mean he could prevent that process. It would be good if he could become God though. The No-God is probably going to be arrive at some point, but it seems to be just a mysterious but very powerful being. Not something omnipotent. Though God could have stopped him so God might not be that omnipotent either. Unless God calculated everything and knows the world will not be closed. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 13:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

He explained why the Psukhe was indistinguishable from the reasl world (the whole seeing from more angles thing). Just because he understands it, doesn't mean he can do it. The Psukhe hinges on passion and emotion maybe he will incorporate aspects of this into his Sorcery, you never know, but we'll have to wait until AE to see what he does over the next 20 years. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 22:04 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Mahajanga Mordecai":15ily4jd]................... 4. Kellhus DID rip out his heart. Scott never said the statement was wrong just confusing. He ALSO ripped out Serwe's. To recap the removal of his own heart, read the musings of Eleazares in the beginning of TTT. I have yet to understand why this is so difficult for people to grasp. Tribal peoples from South America and Africa have been temporaily removing their inner organs for quite some time, though the reasoning for it is lost to me; irregardless, it's not new. Scott just took it to the next level and made the removal permanent.[/quote:15ily4jd] I meant to reply to this before, but in the passage you mention Eleazaras also muses that the heart episode had to be a trick, which it certainly was. How could someone rip their heart out and put it back in? - even with "glittering abstractions of the Gnosis", and that was not available to Kellhus at the time. And it certainly does not seem like the logical move to rip one's heart out after crucifixion. As for the psychic surgeons of the non-fantasy world, the ones I've read about had their share of concealed pigs' hearts and bladders full of blood, i.e. they were performing sleight of hand not surgery. view post


posted 20 Apr 2006, 23:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, I'm pretty sure there has yet to be a verified case of someone removing an organ without leaving you know...a gaping wound. I watched a good show that demonstrated the slight of hand involved for those psychic surgeons who remove tumours from people, quite easy to do and it doesn't require any real equipment at all, anyone with sufficient motor skills can do it. view post


posted 22 Apr 2006, 10:04 by Primal, Peralogue

You're right, Mahajanga. Thanks for pointing it out. view post


posted 22 Apr 2006, 12:04 by n0g0d, Candidate

Does anyone think that Kellhus will be able to remove his mark? I don't think he will be able to achieve immunity to chorae. Do you think that Kellhus will investigate the Daimos? He probably has insight into what the No-God is. But I am sure he wants to find out more about it. As the Aspect-Emperor do you think the Daimos is something he will delve in? He might ask a Scarlet Spire Schoolman to summon something for him so that he doesn't have to learn it himself. Summoning things beyond to glean information might be sensible. What do you reckon? view post


posted 22 Apr 2006, 18:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Remove the Mark? No I don't think he will be able to. It seems like such an interesting part of the metaphysics that I don't really foresee Scott going in that direction, nor do I think it is necessarily even within the realm of possibility to do so. The Daimos is specifically an Anagogic sub-school of Soercery, Achamian I believe mentioned at one point that there are equivalencies in Gnostic Sorcery. We know that Iyokus is quite good at the Daimos (he just so happens to be a Scarlet Schoolmen but the Scarlet Spires as a whole aren't Daimotic Sorcerors). Whether Kelhus explores this aspect of Sorcery who knows. Even if his sanctioning of Sorcery really does remove the threat of Damnation from Sorcery, practicing the Daimos would just put you back in the pot. Summoned Agencies don't forget the insult of it and will gladly claim your soul after you die to use as their onw personal play toy. view post


posted 29 Apr 2006, 03:04 by Anasurimbor Bob, Commoner

That bit about Kellhus ripping out his heart really made my brain whirr. Same deal with the glowing hands - I thought everyone else was just delusional, until Kellhus mentioned it to his dad. I seriously need to go back and read the whole series again. I'm just waiting for my mind to stop reeling from the first time round...ouch (c: The bit where Kellhus "speaks with" Seswartha really got me thinking, though. I was under the impression that Kellhus lied to Akka, and hypnotised him (the spinning knife) in order to force him to hand over the Gnossis. It was nothing to do with Seswartha - Akka, at a subconscious level, just didn't want to tell him. Does hypnosis actually work like this...and, perhaps more importantly, did anyone else get this impression? view post


posted 29 Apr 2006, 12:04 by Scilvenas, Auditor

No, hypnosis shouldn't work like that. Fundamentally, it's just communication with the subconscious. You can't hypnotize somebody into doing something they don't (subconsciously) want to do. That in mind, there's a couple of things that could've happened. The obvious: Kellhus spoke with and convinced Seswatha (who had been grafted onto Akka's consciousness), whether genuinely or in typical Kellhus fashion who's to say. The not-so-obvious: Kellhus got into Akka's mind below the level at which Seswatha had been implanted and short circuited the Seswatha block... like hotwiring a car. Either way, deep down, Akka would have to want to teach Kellhus. I also suspect that deep down he knows what Kellhus is like, and that Akka's own desire to punish/destroy himself could only help lead him to teach Kellhus. view post


posted 29 Apr 2006, 14:04 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea, plus the explanation of Seswatha preventing the betrayel of the Gnosis makes sense. Mandati have been captured and tortured since their formation after the Second Apocalypse and not one has ever betrayed the Gnosis, we're talking over 1000 years. Not every Mandati is going to be that strong willed, the whole deal with Seswatha's imprint from the Grasping exerting some control there made sense and really explained that whole thing really well. view post


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