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Seswatha's dreams. posted 02 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

I am curoius as to what people think about the dreams of the Mandate Schoolmen. They seem to me to come from "outside" the world, and towards the end of TTT, it becomes evident that their content is not immutable, at least to Akka. I think in WP he talks about the dreams "changing" too. If this is the case, what relevance does it hold?

The Celomomian prophecies are a key point regarding the 2nd apocalypse, but there is no other evidence of precognitive magic throughout the series.

Are the dreams in fact proof of the influence of some of the thousand gods (whatever their true nature) inside the world? view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 02 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Dreams are a result of The Grasping, the ritual undertaken when students become full Sorcerors. The ritual utilizes Seswatha's Heart. The Dreams that result are supposed to actually be memories of Seswatha's, which the Mandate Schoolmen relive each night in order to preserve their mission.

The Dream of Akkas that changed, that was the first time that ever happened, as such it is an aberation and can't be applied to the Dreams as a whole, so the more important question is... how (not what was different about it but by whiat actual mechanism did it change) and why did the Dream change. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by H, Auditor

My crackpot theory of the moment is that Seswatha changed Akka's dreams to warn him of what's going to happen... view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Not a bad idea H, I don't know why they changed, or by what mechanism of course. There could be any number of reasons. I don't think yours is that out there but I'm not sure if the remnant of Seswatha can actually foretell the future or anything. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Gregor Lux, Candidate

I think it may have to do with Akka's changed perception of Kellhus or somehow a warning is being sent to Akka. Now that Akka has realized much of what one gives up in following Kellhus it may have caused a subtle shift in how he sees the dreams. I definitely think this will become important in the future. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Entropic_existence, Moderator

So do I, it is quite important I think. After all there were so many differences in the Dream, and we can conjecture with reasonable certainty that Akka's personality itself is changing as he becomes more and more like Seswatha every day. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 04 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

Hmm. Could be that Kellhus is manipulating the dreams. He has mastered the gnosis by that point...

As for Akka becoming more like Seswatha, I'd don't think so.
Seswatha seemed to be highly manipulative and focused on defeating the consult only. As a prodigy from an early age he experienced none of the tribulations that Akka has, and had a supreme sense of conviction and self belief.

I can hardly imagine two less similar characters to be honest.
However they are similar in a number of situational ways, and Esmenet does bang on about their similarities, so perhaps it's just my interperetation of their characters. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 04 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

The Dreams were changing before Kellhus mastered the Gnosis. I still see Achamian as becoming an almost Seswatha incarnate. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 04 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

The Dreams were changing before Kellhus mastered the Gnosis

I thought that was the case, it was just that I could only be sure of it during the last dream described in TTT. If you could elaborate?

Kellhus seems (to me) to be more Seswatha's historical equivilent as Seswatha mainly seemed to work through others also ... Celomas, his son, Anaxophus etc. - a motivator as much as an active participant.
(Why couldn't he wield the Heron Spear btw? It seems almost as if he couldn't even touch it...)

I'd like to hear others' reasons for believing that Akka and Seswatha are so similar, perhaps I'm missing something. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 04 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Entropic_existence, Moderator

It's not so much that they are similar, it is that they are becoming more similar. Kelhus may share many aspects with him as well as far as being manipulative... but in that regard Kelhus makes Seswatha look like a bumbling school boy really.

When the series began Achamian was this pudgy, doubting, cynical, middle-aged Sorceror. In many ways he loathed who and what he was, and I believe it was mentioned that in many regards he had always failed to live up to expectations. The one thing he exceled at was teaching but he saw himself as a failure there as well with how Proyas and Inrau turned out. So when we first see Akka he is a spy, although he doesn't seem to particularly enjoy that vocation.

As the series progresses he becomes more self-assured, more defiant, and more of an individual. Esmenet remains his greatest strength and greatest weakness but by the end of TTT and his final rejection of her after she rejects him again well, all bets are off. Think of the imprint of Seswatha being this hidden kernel in all Mandate Sorcerors. We know that they are all shaped by the Dreams and by this imprinting, and that it even has some control over them (preventing them from betraying the Gnosis). In fact under torture it seems to come to the forefront even more than normal. As the series progresses you can see this kernel of Seswatha, this steely center if you will, becoming greater and greater. Achamian is still Achamian, but he is something more as well. Even Esmenet remarks on it a few times in TTT, how Achamian is becoming a new Seswatha in her eyes. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 05 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

I agree that Achamian is more than he thinks he is (Aren't we all...)
And Seswatha's dreams would certainly affect your personality (They're nearly as bad as some of mine, hehe)

I feel that Achamian has certainly changed throughout the series, but I cannot see him in anything like what Seswatha was during the first apocalypse. He was the constant, implacable foe of the Consult rousing nations and armies against them, at the head of every victory and calamity that befel the Norasai. Possesing unrivaled knowledge of the gnosis and the lore of the non-men, he certainly seemed the Kahiht of the apocalypse to me. Achamian on the other hand has, at the end of TTT, rejected Kellhus, the Mandate, Esmenet and everything that made him himself, becoming an outcast with no purpose. The way I see it he has three options ... return to Kellhus and kneel (probable, Kellhus isn't wrong much), join with the consult (highly unlikely) or go and live as a hermit and fight the consult on his own (not very conducive to the storyline).

I guess that in the way that Esmenet sees the parallel between Achamian and Seswatha I can agree though. (Recalling that Esmenet's perception of Seswatha is drawn from the Sagas) Both Achamian and Seswatha suffer greatly in their struggle against the consult and neither recieve aknowledgment or reward for their pain and loss. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 05 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Entropic_existence, Moderator

It's a similarliy in personality as opposed to action. Plus remember that it is Achamian that rouses Kelhus against the Consult, sort of... really the only reason Kelhus opposses them at first is because they try and kill him. Then he has his "revelation." Remember that until the Apocalypse was apparent, Seswatha wasn't very succesful in gaining support either, in fact only Celmomas believed him and even they became estranged at one point and Seswatha left.

There is much more similarity in the actions of Achamian and Seswatha so far then between Kelhus and Seswatha, in fact Kelhus mirrors Celmomas in more ways than he does Seswatha.

As for what Achamian will do now... there is alot of speculation but we know he'll be back. There is a 20 year gap between TTT and AE after all, I think he'll be on the lamb as a Wizard and probably studying what he can on his own. There is more magic in the world than that found in the Schools after all. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 16 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Anthorn, Candidate

this may be slightly off topic but in the 2nd book when Akka escapes from his torture... did anyone get the feeling by the way it was described that he was possessed by seswatha view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 18 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Harrol, Moderator

Yes I did and I believe that seswatha has choosen Akka to carry on the war. I do not have much more to add other than the dream in the first book in one dream instead of seeing sewatha's face he saw his own and noted that it was different. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 19 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Madness, Peralogue

I think most of you are putting too much stock in Achamian's dreams as more than dreams.

We know that the Mandate Schoolman dream of the first apocalypse nightly. It seems throughout this thread and others there is consensus, at least on that. We know that these dreams are the memories of Seswatha, founder of the Mandate, from the eve of the No-God's awakening to the day Anaxophus V wielded the Heron Spear against the No-God at Mengedda.

To my knowledge only the final dream in TTT contradicts it's counterparts throughout the series. Sometimes Mr. Bakker has written different parts of the same dream as Achamian groggily claws towards conciousness at different times throughout the PoN, and so dreams may have seemed contradictory. However, I have found no instances except the above that prove the dreams are changing in fact.

As for the dreams changing in Achamian's perception of them, I will agree to that. Post-torture by the Scarlet Spires, Achamian begins handling the dreams better and better. In the beginning of the series we'd often happen upon Achamian crying out in the middle of the night, waking and weeping sometimes in joy others in sorrow. After the torture, whenever Mr. Bakker allowed us to experience Eärwa through Achamian, he would still wake perhaps, but not so much in his previous anguish.

What I think many of you fail to integrate into your speculation on this last dream and in other speculations, is the realism of Cû'jara Cinmoi's characters. All of the humans in his books are to the end just that; human. Yes, of course, in a different time and a different place. However, each of his characters are distinct; in their characteristics, mannerisms, and personalities. Each has grown from their circumstance, whittled and hewed, into where we enter their lives throughout the books.

I can only imagine Mr. Bakker's sheer amazement and awe as he makes his journey, writing his books. Sure, when one sits down to write, they may have certain events they want told and a basic plan for their piece. However, as we book owners hold the result, when one has a world and characters as real as Cû'jara Cinmoi's, the characters take matters into their own hands. As I'm sure Mr. Bakker would agree, any interim events between what the writer's basic plan was, the small or large things, are written by his characters. Their actions and words, with characters so real, become more their own and less his written word.

Taking that to heart, we return to look on Achamian and his dreams. They are becoming just that; his dreams. Dreams are subconcious thoughts, fears, hurts, loves, emotions as a whole, rearing from the blackness of our soul trying to find form in our sleeping minds. We know that throughout the books Achamian dreams, a handful of times, his own dreams. The one I'm specifically speaking of, though unfortunantly I can't find the passage, is when Achamian dreams of Esmenet and Kellhus. A result of his feelings of betrayal.

Shortly before his last dream of Anaxophus V and the Battleplain, Achamian learns from Cnaiür that Kellhus is not what he seems but rather that he is Dûnyain. He then has the emotional rush of almost winning Esmenet back, though I believe she is too far gone especially now that Kellhus is becoming deluged by emotions, then fighting to save the Holy War from Conphas and Esmenet from the Ciphrang. I can imagine that my normal dreams might be a bit altered after a day like that too, especially when Seswatha's memories, Achamian's dreams, are becoming more parallels to Achamian's day to day life. Perhaps he sees himself as Seswatha and, in that dream, Kellhus as Anaxophus. This is definitly where I conclude that Achamian will not entirely trust Kellhus's promise to war with the Consult, pre-Consult attack in force, based on the dream, which I view there as Achamian's feelings, and based on his new understanding and opinion of Kellhus as Dûnyain.

As for parallels between Achamian and Seswatha, I believe the reason that some of you cannot connect the two yet is that the PoN is an introductory series. The speculation on parallels between Seswatha and Achamian, and Celmomas II and Kellhus is warranted and, I think, the parallels are intentional. Curethan wrote that Seswatha was "highly manipulative and focused on defeating the consult only," in an attempt to disassociate him from Achamian. However, at the end of TTT Achamian has been molded and shaped, sculpted by events into exactly that. He is not the Achamian we were introduced to. Emotional torment and affliction can be just as monumentally changing, if not more so, than physical hurt. If you fail to see the parallels yet then I believe that upon opening the first book of The Aspect-Emperor and slipping into Cû'jara Cinmoi's world anew, you will be convinced beyond a doubt. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 19 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Madness":gx8n71x0

...........................Taking that to heart, we return to look on Achamian and his dreams. They are becoming just that; his dreams. Dreams are subconcious thoughts, fears, hurts, loves, emotions as a whole, rearing from the blackness of our soul trying to find form in our sleeping minds. We know that throughout the books Achamian dreams, a handful of times, his own dreams. The one I'm specifically speaking of, though unfortunantly I can't find the passage, is when Achamian dreams of Esmenet and Kellhus. A result of his feelings of betrayal.

............[/quote:gx8n71x0]

Quite so, Achamian's dreams became his property, an expression of his experience rather than that of Seswatha. The dreams before Achamian's trials had all been shared by members of the Mandate; indeed, shared dreams were the basis of sorcerous communication, as we have seen in the novels.

There may be parallels between Achamian and Seswatha, but as far as we know Seswatha is long dead, and Achamian's sorcerous rpower could hardly be compared with Seswatha's. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 20 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Harrol, Moderator

Madness that was great I look forward to AE so that we can truly get to the bottom of this. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 20 December 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Madness, Peralogue

Thank ya, Harrol. I wouldn't be surprised if you can tell but I'm excited to read the first book of The Aspect-Emperor as well.

anor, your right in saying that Achamian's sorcerous power at the end of TTT could hardly be compared with Seswatha's. Seswatha was a progidy, sorcerer of rank of the Sohonc at the age of 15, years later becoming Grandmaster. The Sohonc, in my understanding of the original Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North, was the most powerful of the Schools responsible for countless elaborations of the Gnosis; the result of cohesive study with Nonmen Quya.

During the events of the holy war, we learn that Mandate Schoolman stand a head and shoulders above the Anagogic Schoolman of the Three Seas in regards to sorcerous power. We, unfortantly at this point, have no basis for comparison between the Gnosis of the Mandate and the Gnosis of the Mangaecca as throughout the last three centuries skirmishing had ceased between the Mandate and Consult.

Based on the Gnosis alone, and specifically events in which we've witnessed Achamian's latent powers, we can't say he's entirely a failure as a sorcerer. Granted, once again, at the end of TTT Achamian is not Seswatha's parallel. However, we know that their are twenty intervening years between the end of TTT and the beginning of book one of The Aspect-Emperor. There are countless ways, if Achamian were so inclined, that he could become just as powerful, if not more so, than Seswatha by the time we meet again with him in the pages of The-Aspect Emperor. Those of you who've read The Aspect-Emperor thread in this forum know of my speculation on Achamian intruding into the mountain fastnesses of the Nonmen of Ishterebinth, so I'll not repeat myself. My point in the last paragraph of my previous post was just that in the PoN the parallels between Seswatha and Achamian could only be implied. The story that Cû'jara Cinmoi has set out to tell, in my understanding, is exactly that; yet to be told. Obviously, he wanted the PoN story to be told to give us, the reader, an enriching and real background for the true story; The Second Apocalypse.

To finish off before this becomes the darkness that comes before my being late for work I think, based on Seswatha's memories as seen through Mandate dreams, that we will see these parallels in fullness as we read The Aspect-Emperor books and beyond. Achamian as Seswatha, Kellhus as Celmomas II, and Esmenet's yet unborn child, Kellhus's first child, as Nau-Cayûti. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 03 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Sea_Cucumber, Candidate

Hey guys, this is my first post on this Forum, and I only just finished tTT last night. I was reading through this thread, and I had a few things to add.

“Yes I did and I believe that seswatha has choosen Akka to carry on the war.”
-Harrol

I don’t believe that Seswatha can necessarily choose anyone to act in the second Apocalypse as he did in the first, but that he can (and has) placed within each Mandate Schoolman the kernel of strength, determination and willpower necessary to act as Seswatha would. I draw upon Akka’s torment by the Scarlet Spires…"Achamian is not strong", Bakker writes this himself; "...but Seswatha is". Achamian, because of the peculiar nature of the Mandate rituals, has been given this kernel of power. However, in order to preserve the Mandate’s Mandate, it’s raison d’etre, Seswatha passes on the dreams; his experiences, horrific, tragic and ultimately inspiring, so that the Mandate Schoolmen will use this power with the same dogged determination Seswatha himself possessed.

I think the parallels between Achamian and Seswatha are inevitable, as they both endured events that left them scarred, no less for those events being different. Also, I agree with what Madness said that the Akka of the the first novel, and to a leser extent the second (if it is indeed only an introductory series) cannot be parralelled with Seswatha because he is Achamian. But the trials he endures slowly strips him of the weaker aspects of his character, and as a result of his newfound strength and determination, he cannot help but resemble Seswatha.

I realize that this post has been focusing on the dreams, and I just wanted to say that the dreams I think are more a vehicle, a tool Seswatha crafted of his own memories to forge the Mandate into an entire body out of which, at the appropriate time, those few could rise who would be equipped, mentally and Gnostically, to fight in the second Apocalypse. I think the dreams represent the continuing influence of Seswatha, the constant little pushes that guide Achamian into becoming what the First Apocalypse needed, and got (Seswatha), and what the Second Apocalypse needs; someone highly focused on accomplishing the defeat of the Consult, and who works towards this end with singleminded determination.

When the Achamian dreams the same dream as he had countless times through the series, but the dream changes, I was surprised. But I agree with what Madness was saying, in that Achamian’s dreams seem to reflect the changes within him, even while they remain Seswatha’s tools.

If anything needs clarification, call me on it and I’ll be happy to explain more fully. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 04 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Harrol, Moderator

Well Sea your point is very clear to me. It would make more sense that the dreams would forge a schoolman during hard ordeals rather than Seswatha chosing just one man to carry out the war. That way during the second apocalypse there will be 60-70 Seswathas rather than just one. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 14 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

Hehe. It seems that many have come to see Seswatha as a manipulative force that shades Kellhus, acting as he does from beyond the grave. Seswatha was a prodigy - but he was not Dunyain.

The dreams, to me, are a basic premise - a powerful dweomer binding the memories of Seswatha to the pupils of his school through his mumified remians (genetic memory lends credence to this device when one accepts the existence of magic in Scott's world), thus preserving his memories so that his inheritors would recall the enormity of the peril that remains to trouble the world. The fact that they are the result of a manipulation of the onta (in this interpretation) leaves the possibility that they might be manipulated and changed by others, and this was the thrust of my initial post. Obviously, like all methods of storing and reviewing information, the interpretation of the dreams depends upon the viewer, and memory is after all profoundly fallible - but there is signifigance in the narration of changes observed in the dreams, more so to the reader, who is privvy to more information than Akka.

Seswatha is dead; it's been a while since I read the books, but I am sure I recall a passage where it is revealed that the mandate schoolmen partake in a ritual involving a mumified heart thats subsequently 'gifts' them with the dreams. I can't imagine whose heart that would be if not Seswatha's. How could he be manipulating the dreams? How could he choose a succesor at this stage? Are you suggesting that he 'ascended', perhaps? I am quite sure that the creatures of the outside (such as the demons summoned by the Scarlet Spires) are not of this nature in the PoN, more likely they are a type of meme formed from the collective subconcious, and Seswatha's continued existence in any form would strike me as being highly unlikely.

We can infer a few things from the dreams. Beginning with what we know - they are a narative tool to show the history of the mandate and the conflictwith the consult. They are also a tool of the mandate, not the other way round. The fact that the dreams become stronger as the consult begins to move and wield its power in the three seas is clear. As I have noted above - the changes in the dreams towards the end of TTT are in fact signifigant to the story, and the nature of those changes are the cumlmination of an evolution that has been well handled by the author. It is designed to provoke speculation, and I'm sure there will be a very good reason beyond the fact that Akka is almost completely emotionally destroyed at the end of PoN, instead of his usual trainwreck self.

Re the 'Achamian becoming Seswatha' theory, I believe that perhaps Akka may be creating a personality within himself as 'Seswatha' becauss he feels that he is so poorly equipped to deal with his own situation - a form of personality fragmentation that can occur in severly traumatised people. In no way did I gain any sense of Seswatha's personality in the books - he was merely a historical character for me with no motivation beyond his struggle against the consult.
struggle with the consult. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 14 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by RazorSmile, Candidate

The problem here is the same as in some of the science fiction I've read. Does a human mind copied into a computer have a soul or is it a soulless yet functionally identical duplicate? Since this is a cosmology where Souls are literally real, that tends to complicate matters.

In Seswatha's case, he be dead. But the Seswatha-meme, his memories and knowledge remains locked in the subconscious of all Grasped Mandate Schoolmen (actually, that's an interesting parallel to the Dunyain mastery of the mundane and ignorance of the arcane ...)

Quote: "Curethan":2ieeedtd
Re the 'Achamian becoming Seswatha' theory, I believe that perhaps Akka may be creating a personality within himself as 'Seswatha' becauss he feels that he is so poorly equipped to deal with his own situation - a form of personality fragmentation that can occur in severly traumatised people. In no way did I gain any sense of Seswatha's personality in the books - he was merely a historical character for me with no motivation beyond his struggle against the consult.
struggle with the consult.[/quote:2ieeedtd]

I have to disagree with this. His escape from the Scarlet Spires almost explicitly shows Seswatha (or rather, Seswatha-meme or Seswatha-within) taking control of his body and kicking tail. Then there's the part where Xinemus is being tortured in front of him and Seswatha-within is all "I know him not."

The final proof of that is that Kellhus was able to use mundane hypnosis to bypass Akka and speak to Seswatha-within. Since this is just a Seswatha memory-construct (sort of like a non-sentient AI), it was even more amenable to Kellhus' desires. Basically, it can control Akka's responses to certain demands (case in point) but cannot defend itself against same. Seswatha-within is an inutteral buttressing the Akka-utteral, but unable to stand on its own <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

Because Akka's is being stripped down to his most badass elements, his psyche has made room for Seswatha's personality and knowledge to slowly start bleeding into Akka-without. That the Seswatha construct is not conscious doesn't change that; it can simply run itself on the Akka platform.

Seswatha is dead. Long live Seswatha. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 14 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Harrol, Moderator

have to disagree with this. His escape from the Scarlet Spires almost explicitly shows Seswatha (or rather, Seswatha-meme or Seswatha-within) taking control of his body and kicking tail. Then there's the part where Xinemus is being tortured in front of him and Seswatha-within is all &quot;I know him not.&quot;

That is what makes me think Seswatha is more than just memories. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 14 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

My thought here is that Akka believes himself to be possesed by Seswatha. His behaviour in his escape is consistent with someone affected by multiple personality disorder. Mentally unable to cope with his situation, he cedes self-control to a constructed personality that can - the waithi doll that frees him is tied to Akka's soul and its actions are most likely initiated by his desires. The point here is that Akka effectively frees himself - his belief that he is possesed by Seswatha is an extension of many examples of the dichotomy between Akka as a human and Akka as a mandate schoolman illustrated throughout the three books. As a man Akka sees himself as emotional, self doubting and weak (but basicly good) - as a schoolman he recognizes his duty, power and status as damned. In my veiw the retreat of his core personality in times of stress is an inevitable consequence of his inability to reconcile these two aspects of his personality. To me, your examples to refute Seswatha-within as a split personality component of Akka serve more to convince me that this is the angle that the author is using. For example, in our world hypnosis is an excellent tool if a psychologist wishes to comunicate with a recessive personality in such a patient. Supplied with a ready source of pre-existing memories and an empowered character, the development of such a syndrome in an individual as conflicted and in as much turmoil as Akka would be almost inevitable.

The changing of the dreams could, in this interpretation, could be a logical consequence of this, as presented by Madness. However due to the narative clues involved I argue that something more is involved.

The Seswatha meme is an interesting and entirely plausible concept, fuelled as it would be by the sorcerous power of the mandate, it would be charged with power - perhaps rivaling the potency of the meme of the Gods of men. However, such an entity or power would by its nature be motivated and shaped by the collective subconcious of its generators more than the personality and objectives of the original Seswatha. As presented, the dreams offer no insight into these aspects of Seswatha, only his actions and suffering. But if one accepts both these concepts, that there is a Seswatha-meme in the outside, and that Akka has created a split personality that embraces the mandate perception of this meme whilst simultateously being driven to reject his own core personality, I think that I begin to see how many believe that Akka will in AE effectively become Seswatha-reborn. However its worth noting that such an evolution would not be Seswatha-reborn, but a monstrous entity based upon a rejection of Akka's humanity comingled with centuries of relived suffering, fear and dread and possesing the powers of both the mandate and an entity of the outside given form in Earwa....

Perhaps Kellhus should have killed Akka when he had the chance. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 14 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Seswatha is dead; it's been a while since I read the books, but I am sure I recall a passage where it is revealed that the mandate schoolmen partake in a ritual involving a mumified heart thats subsequently 'gifts' them with the dreams. I can't imagine whose heart that would be if not Seswatha's. How could he be manipulating the dreams? How could he choose a succesor at this stage? Are you suggesting that he 'ascended', perhaps? I am quite sure that the creatures of the outside (such as the demons summoned by the Scarlet Spires) are not of this nature in the PoN, more likely they are a type of meme formed from the collective subconcious, and Seswatha's continued existence in any form would strike me as being highly unlikely.


If I recall correctly other people in the books have &quot;ascended&quot; so to speak such as in the scene of the Harbringer prophecy being spoken, he says I see my son riding or something as such stirring our people to fury. So I would say that &quot;ascension&quot; to a point is possible and that the touching of the heart possibly could bind all Schoomen to the Outside Agency that was formerly Seswatha. However I could see equally as well that the touching of the heart takes a part of Seswatha into the Schoomen. You must remember that nearly everyone goes into the Outside its what happens once they get there that matters whether they are tortured by demons, or cycled back into the world, or simply stay there. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 15 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:thvz49eb


If I recall correctly other people in the books have &quot;ascended&quot; so to speak such as in the scene of the Harbringer prophecy being spoken, he says I see my son riding or something as such stirring our people to fury. So I would say that &quot;ascension&quot; to a point is possible and that the touching of the heart possibly could bind all Schoomen to the Outside Agency that was formerly Seswatha. However I could see equally as well that the touching of the heart takes a part of Seswatha into the Schoomen. You must remember that nearly everyone goes into the Outside its what happens once they get there that matters whether they are tortured by demons, or cycled back into the world, or simply stay there.[/quote:thvz49eb]

As far as I know the only individual in Prince of Nothing who could reasonably fit the &quot;ascension&quot; requirement is Shauriatas, an undead sorceror, who according to Achamian is still hanging around like a bad smell. Perhaps we should avoid such terms as ascendant, I really still don't know what one is though I think Shauriatas fits the description. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 15 February 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Ascendant really is a bad word used to describe plus it likely reminds people of Malazan novels, however back to the subject at hand I would say Shauriatas in the terms I would describe the opposite of someone who has gone into the Outside and acting their which earlier is what I meant by &quot;ascendant&quot; he has as it seems to me cut himself or rather his soul off from the influences of the Outside. Perhaps Im wrong but did not Celmomas' son become something of that if I recall correctly near the beginning of TDTCB in one of Akka's Dreams Celmomas says he sees his son with the sun as his charger riding amongst his people stirring their hearts to wonder and fury, and that he whispered to him the prophecy of an Anasurimbor returning. Does this not lead to the possibility of people becoming active Outside Agencies after death. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 18 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by LordBright, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Anthorn&quot;:17j5mak7
this may be slightly off topic but in the 2nd book when Akka escapes from his torture... did anyone get the feeling by the way it was described that he was possessed by seswatha[/quote:17j5mak7]


I got the impression that this would happen with ANY Mandate Schoolman. Seswatha takes over.

Also, going along this thought process- If there was a big enough threat that hit several Mandate Schoolmen at the same time, wouldn't they all turn into Seswatha? There's be a small army of Seswathas running around. How would that work out?

Just a crazy thought that keeps me up at night <!-- s:shock: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_eek.gif" alt=":shock:" title="Shocked" /><!-- s:shock: --> view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 19 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Curethan, Didact

I feel it's moot really. Wether Seswatha were possesing Akka or Akka really experienced a mental schism where he believed he was Seswatha, the scene could be written in exactly the same way.

Remember when treating MPD, doctors often use mundane hypnotism to access submerged personalities.

As for armies of Seswathas.... just eep. view post


Seswatha's dreams. posted 20 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSeswatha's dreams. by Shael_Samyrin, Commoner

stupid question... which dream changed?

it's been a long time since i read this book. view post


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