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Glowing Hands posted 12 Mar 2006, 19:03 by choladeva, Commoner

1) The halos around the Warrior Prophets hands... are they real? I mean, they were noted before he started training with Achamian (correct me if i'm wrong), and Kellhus mentions them as he approaches his conclusion that he is more than a dunyain. What are these halos? 2) Now that Kellhus has finished his mission, yet declared his difference, will the dunyain send another anasurimbor/dunyain assassin to kill him? view post


Re: Glowing Hands posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="choladeva":2kv3wtr8]1) The halos around the Warrior Prophets hands... are they real? I mean, they were noted before he started training with Achamian (correct me if i'm wrong), and Kellhus mentions them as he approaches his conclusion that he is more than a dunyain. What are these halos? 2) Now that Kellhus has finished his mission, yet declared his difference, will the dunyain send another anasurimbor/dunyain assassin to kill him?[/quote:2kv3wtr8] I have no idea about the haloes. Regarding question (ii), the Dunyain have no way of knowing that Kellhus has completed his mission (they have also weeded out all the Dunyain who had sorcerous ability). The only way of the Dunyain finding out about Kellhus is if the Consult winkle out Ishual and ally with the Dunyain - as Kellhus remarked to Moenghus both the Consult and the Dunyain have the same broad aim, the closure of the world from the outside. Many here are of the opinion that the Consult [i:2kv3wtr8]will[/i:2kv3wtr8] ally themselves with the Dunyain. view post


posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Its likely that if the Dunyain are discovered they will A) Kill or capture them. B)Ally themselves if you could call them allies and manipulate the Consult for their own purposes. And just because both want to close themselves to the Outside so to speak I have a hard time believing that the Dunyain will ally themselves with someone who would be considered the outside to them Perhaps im wrong but if someone does find the Dunyain im not sure it will be the Consult. view post


posted 12 Mar 2006, 22:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":315e477v]Its likely that if the Dunyain are discovered they will A) Kill or capture them. B)Ally themselves if you could call them allies and manipulate the Consult for their own purposes. And just because both want to close themselves to the Outside so to speak I have a hard time believing that the Dunyain will ally themselves with someone who would be considered the outside to them Perhaps im wrong but if someone does find the Dunyain im not sure it will be the Consult.[/quote:315e477v] @WP, I agree with you, I was reporting a consensus of opinion (that may certainly be wrong). Personally, I think a Consult/Dunyain entente will be too unchallengeable; they could not be opposed. But who else could find the Dunyain? Not the men of the Three Seas - should Kellhus send a mission back to Ishual it would likely be wiped out on grounds that they would contaminate the Dunyain mission; and anyway the north is crawling with Sranc. Kellhus might even betray the location of the Dunyain to the Consult - the Consult have the resources to destroy Ishual - even thought it would be very costly for them. It is even conceivable that the Dunyain may remain in isolation. I certainly wouldn't care to forecast. view post


Re: Glowing Hands posted 12 Mar 2006, 23:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

[quote="anor277":2m7rq6md] I have no idea about the haloes. Regarding question (ii), the Dunyain have no way of knowing that Kellhus has completed his mission (they have also weeded out all the Dunyain who had sorcerous ability). The only way of the Dunyain finding out about Kellhus is if the Consult winkle out Ishual and ally with the Dunyain - as Kellhus remarked to Moenghus both the Consult and the Dunyain have the same broad aim, the closure of the world from the outside. Many here are of the opinion that the Consult [i:2m7rq6md]will[/i:2m7rq6md] ally themselves with the Dunyain.[/quote:2m7rq6md] I don't think they weeded out all of the Few, just those Dunyain whom Moenghus had contacted via dreams. I don't think we have enough information in this regard to know whether only the Few could receive the dreams or if he only contacted certain people for other reasons. It could go either way I think at this point. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 00:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think during the discussion between Moenghus and Kellhus, Moenghus said he contacted only those he remebered before he left Ishual that he knew were of the Few. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 02:03 by anor277, Didact

[quote="Warrior-Poet":1ks6tmnh]I think during the discussion between Moenghus and Kellhus, Moenghus said he contacted only those he remebered before he left Ishual that he knew were of the Few.[/quote:1ks6tmnh] I'll have to look through that passage as well - as far as I know Moenghus had no conception of sorcery before he left Ishual. His sorcerous message to the Dunyain (an effort which I recall him saying "nearly broke him") was indiscriminate, it was transmitted to all members with sorcerous aptitude - including Kellhus. Anyway, we'll both take another look at that passage. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 04:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

pg 350 TTT [quote:25bgqbmi]"I assume," Kellhus continued, "That you're not entirely without Water...that this was how you were able to reach out to Ishual, to send dreams to those Dunyain you knew before your exile."[/quote:25bgqbmi] Furthermore I think that the Cant of Calling is explained by Akka in one of the novels that you must know who you are calling and where that person is. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 13:03 by Rooster, Commoner

If Kellhus is to do anything about his brethren other than let them be, he'd wipe them out. There's no way he'll convince them of his divinity and if found, they will prove to be a liability. Even if the Consult wouldn't/couldn't ally themselves with the Dûnyain, they most likely could break a lesser Dûnyain and thus demystify Kellhus, which would prove rather dangerous to him. Anyway, it should be noted that not only were Kellhus's haloes seen before learning sorcery, they were seen by Sërwe before Kellhus even joined the Holy War. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 15:03 by unJon, Auditor

WP, Moenghus would have know idea who among the Dunyain would be among the Few. There is no way to tell someone is on of the Few unless they cast sorcery. Remember that Akka could not tell if Kellhus was among the few until the test with the Doll. view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

uJ, Where does it say he doesn't know who was of the Few with Dunyain analyzation I think those who could see the onta would talk about it maybe not knowing what it was but knowing it all the same. Example Akka described seeing the onta when he was a child. Also its highly likely that almost all Dunyain are of the Few meaning nearly everyone he knew was likely of the Few. I saw it as this though he sent Dreams to all those he remembered before he left Ishual and only some were capable of recieving it. Rooster [quote:31pe7h6p]they most likely could break a lesser Dûnyain and thus demystify Kellhus, which would prove rather dangerous to him[/quote:31pe7h6p]. Breaking a Dunyain I see that as nearly impossible, and demystifying Kellhus will not help either because 1) He is already Aspect-Emperor with Shirah on his side. 2) Everyone see him as a Prophet and will think anything said is lies. 3) Achamian (along with a few others) was demystified and look what good that did. [u:31pe7h6p]none[/u:31pe7h6p] view post


posted 13 Mar 2006, 21:03 by unJon, Auditor

I don't think there is any Onta to see in Ishual as no sorcery has been performed there in millenia. I find it very unlikely that Kellhus or Moenghus have any idea of how many/which Dunyain are among the Few. view post


posted 14 Mar 2006, 01:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Hmm I dont remember it saying that over time you can no longer see the Onta can you get me a pg#. Well anyway I didnt say they knew who and how many Dunyain were of the Few I said it was highly likely that most Dunyain are of the Few and that my view on Moenghus contacting them was that he sent out the Dreams to those he remembered before Ishual and only some were capable of recieving the Dreams. view post


posted 14 Mar 2006, 01:03 by Twayleph, Auditor

The onta is described as the fabric of existence, and as such it would be omnipresent within Eärwa. The sorcerous Mark, which does seem vanish over time (as far as places are concerned, not individuals though), is simply a particular, unnatural state of the onta. Therefore it seems perfectly acceptable that you could apprehend the onta (and therefore realize you're one of the Few) even if you live your whole life without going anywhere near sorcery. As to the theory that most Dûnyain are of the Few...I don't think the Dûnyain would especially favor the Few, since they don't believe in sorcery; in fact they might even see the "experience" of the onta as a sign of madness, and exterminate those who live it, thus gradually culling the Few from their order. I believe Khellus and Moënghus to be the exception, rather than the rule. view post


posted 14 Mar 2006, 01:03 by unJon, Auditor

WP, your second point good be right, I don't know. it depends if you have to be among the Few to receive a Cant of calling. I don't think we know the answer. I don't have a site about the Mark (yes I was using Onta incorrectly) fading over time, but that is my impression. Also using my primitive version of the Logos, I conclude that the Dunyain have never seen the mark in Ishual or they would (using their superior Logos) deduce the existence of sorcery. Note how quick Kellhus deduces sorcery once he sees it, and how the Dunyain are sure it does not exist. view post


posted 14 Mar 2006, 05:03 by Rooster, Commoner

>> Breaking a Dunyain I see that as nearly impossible Look how close Aurang came to tempting Kellhus, then pick a lesser Dûnyain and give years of time to break him. With any lesser being I would agree with you, but I see the Inchoroi could break one. >> and demystifying Kellhus will not help either because I didn't mean demystifying as in demystifying Kellhus for the world, I meant demystifying Kellhus for the senior members of the Consult. One of the two reasons why Aurang had no direct action taken towards Kellhus was because the Dûnyain are new to them, a mystery. view post


posted 14 Mar 2006, 17:03 by choladeva, Commoner

so...about those glowing hands... has Mr. Bakker ever mentioned why his hands seem to (or actually do) glow? thanx view post


posted 15 Mar 2006, 01:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Eh sorry kinda got off topic there but no I dont think there has ever been a direct answer from Scott about the glowing hands. Wow I just made myself laugh, Scott answering directly :D view post


posted 15 Mar 2006, 19:03 by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

If you are still curious you should post it in the Q&A area so Scott can answer it. view post


posted 15 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think it has been asked before, and Scott doesn't appear to be answering it :) view post


posted 20 Mar 2006, 20:03 by Will, Peralogue

I'd like to put forward a theory of hand glowy from these bits of evidence. Potential Theories I came up with off the top of my head: A. Glowy is a delusion/subjective, you can see haloes around anyone's hands if you believe hard enough. B. Glowy is a revelation/objective, if you believe hard enough about the right guy, the Gods will make you see haloes there. C. Glowy is a trick/subjective reversed, if they use the right trick anyone can make you see their hands as glowing. D. Glowy is a way of looking/filter theory. If you believe hard enough you notice the actually existing haloes that everyone else disregards. "Facts" (sorta) 1. Serwe + other Kellhus faithful see Kellhus' hands glowing after she/they have decided he is the God/the Prophet/deserving of glowy. 2. Serwe sees Sarcellus' hands glowing when she thinks it is Kellhus. 3. Kellhus sees his own hands glowing after the Tree, in his confrontation with Moenghus. 4. The halo sheds no light on its surroundings. Kellhus remarks on this in his mind during his confrontation with Moenghus. 5. People saw haloes on Inri Sejenus' hands back in the day, as depicted in religious works. 6. Cnaiur never sees them. 7. No one is convinced by them to believe in Kellhus as a prophet. We never get the "OMG Halos!" scene. People only see them once they've reached a state of mind where their existence isn't surprising. It isn't an objective effect because nothing is actually revealed. Light that cannot illuminate isn't objective light. However it makes sense that light that exists only in the viewer's mind wouldn't illuminate its surroundings, since the viewer doesn't know what those surroundings are. Thus, if Kellhus sticks his hand in a dark box I may see his hands as haloed, but in the absence of any real light I can't see the contents of the box. My beliefs don't provide me with information about the world, rather they are an attempt to define it. It isn't a revelation from the Gods/Kellhus' oversoul idea because it can be seen on the hands of the soulless abomination Sarcellus. It is difficult to imagine a less holy creature. It seems that in this world once you accept someone as a Prophet/God you are able to trick yourself into seeing them with haloes on their hands. Serwe can put them on Sarcellus's hands because she has faith in the semblance it has assumed, but Cnaiur can't see them on Kellhus' hands even after he has repeatedly demonstrated prophetic insight, because he is completely skeptical of Kellhus. The Tribe of Truth can see them, but the Orthodox don't see them. (This isn't explicitly stated, but It seems likely that there would have been a much earlier mass conversion if the Orthodox could see them, and the Tribe's mantra of "Truth Shines" is pretty revealing). To sum up: in Earwe you can see haloes on the hands of anyone you wholeheartedly believe is a prophet, even if that is yourself, and even if you are completely wrong. view post


posted 21 Mar 2006, 05:03 by unJon, Auditor

Will, I like it. Very well documented. I am inclined to believe your conclusion. view post


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