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Water posted 10 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by choladeva, Commoner

Hello one and all,
My name is Choladeva and i'm new here, but i have a question that has been bothering me since the concluding chapters of the series:

What is "Water"?

I must have read too fast or something, but it seems like a medium used to do chishaurim magic... I think. It's mentioned several times toward the end of the TFT.
Somebody Enlighten Me
Thanks,
-Choladeva view post


Water posted 10 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The phrase "Spilling Water" is the highest and most complex work of Sorcery used by the Cishaurim. The references to Water itself appear to be more something tieing into the Soul/Outside and are not really talking about literal water. This is after all a desert society so water is precious. (Hence why the water reference is used water = life) view post


Water posted 10 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by unJon, Auditor

My impression was that it was some type of blue energy force. I kept imagining the Emperor in Star Wars but less lightning looking. view post


Water posted 11 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Noctis, Candidate

There's a connection between the soul (psukhe) and water in ancient Greek philosophers before Plato, intriguing since the Cishaurim are the psukhe school...

There are similar ancient theories about the soul being made of fire, as well (for example, Heraclitus thought the soul was made of fire until it died, then it became water).

Correct me on this if I'm off base, but don't the Scarlet Spires seem to use mostly fire-based magic (dragon heads and so on)? Their natural opposite would then be the water-based magic of the Cishaurim. Makes me wonder if we are going to see the other Classical elements (earth and air) as the bases of other Anagogic schools. view post


Water posted 11 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I envisioned the "Pouring Water" as literally waves of bluish-white light/energy pouring out/washing over the foes of the Cishaurim, something like that.

As for the Scarlet Spires using fire, that makes sense given the nature of the Anagogic Sorceries, which turn on the hinge of analogy. When you think of powerful destructive forces in the world you're likely to think of fire. Personally I don't really see it being anything to do with the notion of the classical elements or that different schools will subscribe to a different element as the basis of their sorcery. view post


Water posted 12 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by anor277, Didact

The reference to "water" was also in a figurative sense to Fane's experience in the desert. The prophet Fane, an apostate Shrial priest, was banished to the desert. There, his prophetic visions and his life were sustained by the (literal) water bearers of the Indara(?) tribe. As someone remarked earlier, water was a precious commodity in the desert - Cishaurim sorcery was henceforth associated with the bearing of water. view post


Water posted 12 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "anor277":2otpsjny
The reference to "water" was also in a figurative sense to Fane's experience in the desert. The prophet Fane, an apostate Shrial priest, was banished to the desert. There, his prophetic visions and his life were sustained by the (literal) water bearers of the Indara(?) tribe. As someone remarked earlier, water was a precious commodity in the desert - Cishaurim sorcery was henceforth associated with the bearing of water.[/quote:2otpsjny]

Yup, that was me <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Water posted 16 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Can I just say that I loved this analogy from the first time I read it and haven't stopped doing so. I especially loved it when the Pshukari, closed with the Spires and taught them a thing or two about sorcery. Even Kellhus found himself pressed for survival during this battle with the last five Pshukari. Had they employed Wards during their battle with him I'm not so sure he'd still be alive. view post


Water posted 10 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Primal, Peralogue

I do not think Kellhus &quot;found himself pressed for survival&quot; against the Cishaurim. =]

All the mandate schoolmen use one voice to utter the gnosis; Achamian told Kellhus about the legend of a powerful sorcerer who uttered two voices but said that such a thing was an impossibility, a myth.

Kellhus utters not one...not two but three voices.

One voice vs. two voice vs. three voice. Look at what one voice of Achamian can do. The gnosis is very powerful sorcery. Add a second or third voice, and you get exponential power. Now, add someone with Dunyain abilities.

Five Pshukari vs that? This is like clumsy, slow, porky amateur swordfighters who wield plastic spoons against an expert swordfighter who wheels an exceedingly sharp sword which he can twirl like a nunchuck.

Three voices...this is power beyond a mere handful of water-spillers. view post


Water posted 10 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Primal&quot;:vudyl982


All the mandate schoolmen use one voice to utter the gnosis; Achamian told Kellhus about the legend of a powerful sorcerer who uttered two voices but said that such a thing was an impossibility, a myth.

Kellhus utters not one...not two but three voices.

[/quote:vudyl982]

Just a little correction, all Mandate Schoolmen use two voices (the utteral and the inutteral), and Achamian was thinking about the legend of a Non-men Sorceror who could use two inutteral strings when Kelhus asked but he never actually told him the story. Kelhus worked it out on his own on how to use one utteral and two inutterals. view post


Water posted 10 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Just a little correction, all Mandate Schoolmen use two voices (the utteral and the inutteral), and Achamian was thinking about the legend of a Non-men Sorceror who could use two inutteral strings when Kelhus asked but he never actually told him the story. Kelhus worked it out on his own on how to use one utteral and two inutterals.


Precisely/ view post


Water posted 11 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Um, I based that statement off of the entry in the book:

&quot;But Kellhus's Wards were failing, cracked and shattered by tempests of unholy light. No more Gnostic lines glittered out to assail the hanging Cishaurim. And Proyas realized that Kellhus could not win, that he could only cry out Wards lest he be swept away. That it was only a matter of time.&quot;

Hadn't Kellhus had to ability to teleport, he'd have died then and there. You could have sixteen inutterals and sixteen more utterals if you wanted, it wouldn't do you any good against the Indara-Kishauri. Their craft isn't based no cognition, it's based on an empathic awareness and relationship with the Outside/God. The greater the relationship, the more powerful the soul. That's why I was so moved by the Cishaurim, theirs is a power that goes beyond mere sorcery. I don't know what you would call them, but it's clear that they were more. RIP Waterbearers. <!-- s:cry: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cry.gif" alt=":cry:" title="Crying or Very sad" /><!-- s:cry: --> view post


Water posted 11 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I was correcting Primal's post Mordecai, and yes Kelhus certainly was pressed. But then again he was up against five Cishaurim at once, and I think they were all Primaries if I recall correctly.

I wouldn't say their power goes above mere Sorcery, since their power IS sorcery, it is simply of a different flavour than the Anagosis or the Gnosis. view post


Water posted 13 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Ah, but this is where I disagree mon frere. Depending upon what POV you are judging from, the matter can swing either way. If you're looking at it from a ordinary Earwans perspective then any medium that edits or manipulates reality by way of the esoterics is sorcery.

If you are, however, a practioner of such crafts, a theologian, or a philosopher you are likely to come away with a different opinion. Sorcery is largely based on meanings. Granted metaphysics is an important variable but by and large sorcery requires a cognitive approach. Given that fact I don't think that the Pshuke, in it's purest sense, can be considered sorcery. Though it can be augmented or used to sorcerous ends, see Moenghus, it almost completely lacks a cognitive approach.

This, I think, is why Akka mentioned once that he wasn't even sure that the Pshuke could be considered sorcery; neither it's intellectual approach nor its metaphysical approach follows the basic rules of what is commonly recognized as sorcery by sorcerers and/or other speculators in-the-know. view post


Water posted 13 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well I'm going by Scotts own words and some of the elaborations on metaphysics he has been willing to provide in discussions on the Q&amp;A thread to define Sorcery. Anagogic and Gnostic Sorcery hinge on meaning and are primarily intellectually driven, whereas the Psukhe hinges more on passion/emotion. (&quot;They remember the Gods heart&quot; whereas Anagogic/Gnostic sorcerors &quot;remember the mind/voice&quot;).

They are quite different in how they operate but by an outside definition (which is often easiest/best to work with in order to avoid confusion) they are both Sorcery.

Again I don't disagree that they are different, they are radically different. There are also other non-School sanctioned sorcerous practices out there (Witches) which similarly are also likely going to prove quite different. view post


Water posted 13 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Curethan, Didact

Hmm. I tend to think of the difference between the two types of magic this way.
Standard sorcery as practiced by the schoolmen is constructed through artifice (using their intellect and ancient forms to wield the power, that originates from outside - thus &quot;source-ery&quot;), whereas the Cishuarim basicaly &quot;channel&quot; the power directly via their emotive connectection with their god/ancestors.
The term water is especially relevent in this case, as it suggests power without form. Water is the most destructive element in the world. Beats fire hands down - and carves the very shape of mountains and continents. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post


Water posted 14 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Beautifully said Curethan. And I agree with you too EE.

Both your statements work toward my point. The cognitive crafts are limited to the intellect of the user; to the mind. The channlers are limited only by the strength and dept of their souls. It, theoretically, makes them limitless. This is what I meant by the Psuke being more than &quot;mere sorcery.&quot; Just my two ensolarri. view post


Water posted 14 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Mahajanga Mordecai&quot;:2kyumy6d
Beautifully said Curethan. And I agree with you too EE.

Both your statements work toward my point. The cognitive crafts are limited to the intellect of the user; to the mind. The channlers are limited only by the strength and dept of their souls. It, theoretically, makes them limitless. This is what I meant by the Psuke being more than &quot;mere sorcery.&quot; Just my two ensolarri.[/quote:2kyumy6d]

They are both still limited, just by different factors. Look at how limited Moenghus is in most aspects of the Psukhe because he is a Dunyain and is passionless. I can see the &quot;channeling&quot; as a metaphor though, although I don't think that is really what they are doing, it is merely a different approach to Sorcery by &quot;remembering the heart&quot; of the God as opposed to his mind as the Anagogic or Gnostic Sorcerors do.

I think the main point is there are limits and benefits to both and I don't think either is necessarily &quot;more&quot;. Remember that the Psukhe has an advantage in being indistinguishable from the Gods own work (which Kelhus reasoned was because by blinding themselves they can &quot;see&quot; from more angles than the other Sorcerors who similarlily conceptualize the world from more angles than lay people) but it is also considerably cruder in application and use than either the Anagogic or Gnostic Sorceries. Which to me makes sense given it is passion driven. It is hard to &quot;refine&quot; passion if you will. Passion tends to spill put and run like a raging river if you will <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Also makes a good analogy for the whole Spilling Water, in that it is the most powerful of the Cishaurim's arts and is like spilling out raw destructive forces. view post


Water posted 15 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Curethan, Didact

Could be that the fact that the psuhke (how do you pronouce that btw) leaves no mark because it has no verbal component and is therefore not &quot;shaped&quot; by human thought and remains &quot;pure&quot;, kinda.
Yeh, and I don't see it as being limitless of more powerful than sorcery either - my emotions work better when they are shaped by reason at any rate. view post


Water posted 15 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Curethan&quot;:25sx5gdq
Could be that the fact that the psuhke (how do you pronouce that btw) leaves no mark because it has no verbal component and is therefore not &quot;shaped&quot; by human thought and remains &quot;pure&quot;, kinda.
Yeh, and I don't see it as being limitless of more powerful than sorcery either - my emotions work better when they are shaped by reason at any rate.[/quote:25sx5gdq]

I liked Kelhus's explanation myself, which was that by remembering from more angles it made it indistuishable from the Gods own work. Think of a sculpture. Ok so a &quot;normal&quot; person sees the sculpture from head on but has no depth perception and tries to reproduce it. It is crude because it is only really a 2-D representation with little depth or definition to it.

Now we take another person, who has full site and gets the change to see the sculpture from the fron and sides but not the back. Their copy is much better and from head on is almost indistinguishable. In fact if person one looked at the sculpture to them there would be no difference because they are not attuned enough to notice the differences.

Then we have a third artist, who gets to see the whole thing from all possible angles. Their copy is indistinguishable from the original to everyone who sees it from the work of the original artist.

<!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> That analogy turned out even better than I expected actually <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Water posted 28 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by ezekiel1111, Commoner

my thoughts on this one, for what they're worth.


I agree with most of what's been said so far, the water magics are emotion and feeling (freeform and uncontained like water) and drusas' magic in particular is shown as extremely logic and intellect based as evidenced by geometries and such.


also, as per kellhus being pressed by his 5 adversaries, as much fun as it is to immerse yourself in this world, at times remember you play in another man's mind, by his rules. as such you should remember that that scene plays out through the eyes of proyas, and please, give me one instance where kellhus is as he seems in the eyes of another.

pretty much the only observations you can trust in a writing of this style are those of the character whose pov you're reading on himself, all else is the author playing with you. view post


Water posted 28 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

ezekiel thank you for saying that last bit about Proyas' pov. Your completely right and its exactly what i thought while reading that scene. view post


Water posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

This seems as good a topic for this as any I could locate.

What I thought was interesting was the striking similarity between the supposed motivation and power behind the Cishaurim - passion - and the Consult's absolute driving motivation of passion. I don't know whether there's a true link here yet, but it was striking to me that passion seemed to be so linked between true 'evil' (at least via the Consult) and this magic that was orthogonally situated from the intellectual pursuits of the Schools.

Then again, the strong implication I get from reading is that the Consult/Inchoroi do not use sorcery/magic in any form, really; it is entirely different and technologically-based from the sorcery. Hence the God/No-God duality, the Consult worried about their souls, the continued talk about the architects, constructs, and the lost 'art' of 'making' skinspies and the like. view post


Water posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

The Consult and Inchoroi do use sorcery we know this becasue Inrau was killed by the Synthese bird who was clearly using sorcery. They also use Tekne even if they dont fully understand it anymore. view post


Water posted 30 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

We don't know what kind of sorcery the Inchoroi use, however. The Synthese house the souls of Men, and we know what they're doing - they use the Gnosis. Sorry, I should've been more precise.

The Inchoroi don't seem to be magically based. They use technology, as far as I can tell. The Consult are Magi and Generals that are Men, and as such can happily use magic. view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by avatar_of_existence, Peralogue

I thought of &quot;spilling water&quot; as a striking symbol in desert terminology, but mostly I thought of the idea that Cishauram magic is fueled by emotion, not thought, and water is one of those really emotional kind of symbols, especially evoking a sense of the subconscious or that which lays beneath.

Then there is the idea that spilling water in a desert is equal to a loss of life, and 'spilling water' as the Cisharaum are doing is such an act indeed. view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;kalbear&quot;:3boij1wp
We don't know what kind of sorcery the Inchoroi use, however. The Synthese house the souls of Men, and we know what they're doing - they use the Gnosis. Sorry, I should've been more precise.

The Inchoroi don't seem to be magically based. They use technology, as far as I can tell. The Consult are Magi and Generals that are Men, and as such can happily use magic.[/quote:3boij1wp]

When the Inchoroi arrived they used the Tekne exclusively. As time and their wars with the Cunoroi raged on they slowly began to forget many things about the Tekne. As their knowledge and expertise with their own Tekne failed, they began to learn Gnostic Sorcery and used it.

Prior to the First Apocalypse the Schoolf of Mangeacca found the Ark-of-the-Skies and banded together with the remaining Inchoroi and Cunoroi Erratics. The humans ended up rediscovering much with the Tekne, together the Inchoroi (only two left now), Men, and Non-Men all make up the Consult. view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Thank you Entropic for some reason I can never explain things quite as well as you can. view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by kalbear, Candidate

...and banded together with the remaining Inchoroi and Cunoroi Erratics.

...together the Inchoroi (only two left now)
Huh. I could've sworn that Akka describes exploring Golgotterath and saying that there were no more Inchoroi - but the Men became corrupted by the Inchoroi power and worked with the Nonmen that were corrupted to learn more. Who are the two that are left? Aurang and Aurax are men, IIRC.

Do we know anything about what Inchoroi are like? view post


Water posted 31 May 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtWater by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Aurang and Aurax are definitely not men. view post


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