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Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Isn't Maithanet an Anasuribor as well. Something I find interesting is that everyone seems to think that Kellhus, Moeghus, or Kellhus' children as possible Harbringers and Saviors but everyone seems to forget that Maithanet is Moenghus' son therefore an Anasurimbor. So doesn't that make it possible for himself or one of his children to be the harbringer and savior. Personally I think it would make perfect sense for him to be the Harbringer because he started the Holy War. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Warrior-Poet":29td8hso
Isn't Maithanet an Anasuribor as well. Something I find interesting is that everyone seems to think that Kellhus, Moeghus, or Kellhus' children as possible Harbringers and Saviors but everyone seems to forget that Maithanet is Moenghus' son therefore an Anasurimbor. So doesn't that make it possible for himself or one of his children to be the harbringer and savior. Personally I think it would make perfect sense for him to be the Harbringer because he started the Holy War.[/quote:29td8hso]

You're prefectly right, Maithanet is an Anasurimbor (where is the "u" with the circumflex?). He is also a potential sorceror. But while Maithanet might be the harbinger, his father Moenghus may be the harbinger with equal likelihood. It all boils down to whether we put in faith in prophecy. I think Kellhus himself is having a hard time with prophecy, whether to believe what he preaches or not. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

This also makes me wonder just how many Anasurimbors there actually are I mean Moenghus seduced quite a few people in a very short time, Cnauir's mother was burned after giving birth to his child. Who's to say just how many others there are like this. Not to mention how many Anasurimbors there could be back at Ishual. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by unJon, Auditor

I wonder how the naming conventions work in Earwa. All of the current "Anasurimbors" are from the bastard son of the last high king. Does the bastard really get to take the Anasurimbor name? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Depends on the society unJon, plus the Apocalypse is hardly a normal time. If the only heir you have is a bastard, you better believe you're going to give him the family name to maintain the bloodline. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Dawnstorm, Candidate

With so many Anas├╗rimbors running around it's a bit silly to bicker about which one is the Harbinger. Heck, I could say it's none of them; the one addressed in the prophecy hasn't yet shown up. He's waiting until the Apocalypse, you know. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->

All a Harbinger does is "announce".

I mean, if you're waiting for Spring, and someone's told you when the swallows return it's spring, and then you see three swallows in a day, would it occur to you to ask which one of them told you it was spring? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Egaragoras, Candidate

That's an excellent point. The Harbringer doesn't nessessarily need to DO anything. Rather, the title implies that he is a sign of the impending conflict. We know that Kellhus, and perhaps Maithanet, will play roles in the coming Apocalypse, but that has little to do with whether they are Harbringers. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 09 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Dexious, Candidate

What about the unborn child? Since Kellhus and Esmenet are not technically married, that child will be yet another bastard Anasurimbor. I thought I heard The Aspect Emperor takes place 20 years later. If that's true then that child, girl or boy, could be the Harbinger. Seems to me though, if the next apocolypse does occur, that's a big if considering the ending of TTT, it would have to be Kellhus, with his delusions of grandeur, creating the apocolypse. He is completely capable as we all know and if he is already starting to loose it now, what will he be like in 20. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 09 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

One question why would Esmenet's child be a bastard Anasurimbor? I don't think Kellhus is going to allow his child to be bastard, and as far as things go in Earwa I think there pretty much married. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 14 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Dexious, Candidate

Just counting on Kellhus to be the traditional Anasurimbor father. That's all. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Kidruhil Lancer, Auditor

So far as Kellhus and Esmenet's child is concerned, Kellhus could probably care less whether or not the child is a &quot;bastard&quot;. All he cares about is mixing his bloodline with someone strong. If he does decide to marry Esmenet and make the child &quot;legitimate&quot;, his only motivation will be to further manipulate public opinion. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by White Lord, Subdidact

Since we know nothing of what makes a &quot;bastard&quot; (or if there ever are any bastards in the noble houses) in the various Earwic societies, I think it's a bit premature to talk of illegitimate Anasurimbors (especially by applying our own real-world standards).

In fact, text evidence would go against considering any child of Kellhus a bastard. The line of Anasurimbor at the time of the Apocalypse could also be considered a bastard line since Anasurimbor Sanna-Jephera (direct ancestor of Celmomas) was a bastard offspring of Omindalea's rape by a Nonman.

Then the unnamed Anasurimbor in the prologue to TDtCB is presented as the son of a concubine, and considers himself a prince, which hardly tallies with someone who has no rights or is shunned.

My guess is that all it takes for someone to inherit in Earwa is the consent of the head of the House, provided the &quot;bastard&quot; does have the right blood. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

also, isn't it rumored that Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti was the illegitimate son of Seswatha? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Peter, Auditor

Since we know nothing of what makes a &quot;bastard&quot; (or if there ever are any bastards in the noble houses) in the various Earwic societies, I think it's a bit premature to talk of illegitimate Anasurimbors (especially by applying our own real-world standards).

My guess is that all it takes for someone to inherit in Earwa is the consent of the head of the House, provided the &quot;bastard&quot; does have the right blood.


Just because it hasn't been stated explicitly that bastards are considered like X,Y,Z, doesn't mean that we can't make some educated guesses. So,

One would have thought that a in a society with such a rigid caste system then at least traditionally bastardy would be a problem if it were between castes. So a noble who gets a commoner with child will hardly be adopting it into his household, let alone as an heir. After all the whole point about having castes is to keep certain people in power (by excluding everyone else by telling them that &quot;it is natural&quot; etc.), and bastard children can threaten that.

Also, generally speaking, the nobility tend to have a certain interest in lineage, which tends to imply a certain interest in the 'purity' if the line, so again the mere fact of nobility would (I think) tend to militate against the open recognition of bastards.

Both these points presuppose that there are certain similarities between castes/nobles in our world as in the Three Seas, but to a certain extent, we are not dealing with wholly alien cultures and given Scott's decision to describe the Three Seas in these terms I don't think it unreasonable to assume a certain amount of baggage. That said my second point is, I think, weaker than my former.

Also, the Anasurimbor, historically are probably a little different, if only because I get the impression that the caste-system of the Three Seas is probably not something which goes back thousands of years (hundreds almost certainly).

And as for Kellhus, well let's be honest, he can do whatever the hell he likes really. If I remember correctly he is beginning to work at undermining the whole caste system anyway, so whether or not Esmenet's child is a bastard or not is likely to be rather less important. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

WL and Peter you both have some excellent points I guess it all depends on how ancestry works in PoN. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 01 April 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by swazond, Commoner

Kellhus is the harbinger, simply by telling a Mandate Schoolman his name. If Moengus had, at some point, encountered someone who knew the prophecy, he would have been the harbinger. Who is he announcing the Apocalypse to? Only the Mandate because they are the only ones who have the dreams.

/ view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 23 June 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by DELETED, Subdidact

DELETED view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 08 August 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Ennui, Commoner

I just finished The Thousandfold Thught yesterday...

And my theory is that maybe the return of the Anasurimbor blood line doesn't neccessarily mean one person. It could involve Mohengus, Kellhus, Maithenet, and possibly Kellhus' son.

Judging by Bakker's writing style, he goes for originality.

Why go the traditional route of one destined hero when there could be many? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 09 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Madness, Peralogue

I don't really know if people read these posts after all this poker spam though I hope they do because some really interestings questions were posed.

First, to Warrior-Poet, who started this thread.

Isn't Maithanet an Anasuribor as well. Something I find interesting is that everyone seems to think that Kellhus, Moeghus, or Kellhus' children as possible Harbringers and Saviors but everyone seems to forget that Maithanet is Moenghus' son therefore an Anasurimbor.


The thing I find so amazing in The Prince of Nothing trilogy is that Bakker really does answer everything. He left almost no loose ends in the trilogy itself while setting up possible themes and plots for a future series.

To answer your question, Warrior-Poet, Kellhus is the only true Harbringer. Before meeting Moenghus, Kellhus grasps the Thousandfold Thought in The Warrior-Prophet. To my understanding this is just another step in Dunyain principle transfered into the real world. Essentially fate grapsed through The Logos but something to be grapsed increasingly through more probability trances and based on ability. I assume this because of Kellhus's thoughts during his encounter with Moenghus.

His father, Kellhus realized, had finally grasped the principles of this encounter. Moenghus had assumed that his son would be the one requiring instruction. He had not foreseen it as possible, let alone inevitable, that the Thousandfold Thought would outgrow the soul of its incubation - and discard it.


Moenghus being the original and only other Dunyain to travel into the world in two thousand years, he grapsed the Thousandfold Thought first.

Kellhus having grasped more of the Thousand Thought than his father realizes Moenghus will come to believe. Dunyain originally have no belief aside from the Logos as everything is a tool to them. Moenghus, however, having put out his eyes to survive as a Cishaurim, no longer has all of the abilities of a Dunyain.

The crimes you've commited, Father... the sins... When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi [who believe themselves damned, and so seek to aid The No-God in destroying existence]. As Dunyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy... And you will war as they war.


Hense, Kellhus kills Moenghus to delay the Second Apocalypse, as he was planning on raging a false-war against Golgotterath in a bid to weaken the forces of good. Therefore, he is not a harbringer based on the Thousandfold Thought.

Bakker also answers your question on Maithanet in The Thousandfold Thought.

&quot;In this world,&quot; Moenghus said, &quot;there's nothing more precious than our blood - as you have no doubt surmised. But the children we bear by worldborn [non-Dunyain] women lack the breadth of our abilities. Maithanet is not Dunyain. He could do no more than prepare the way [by declaring a holy war that his half-brother could dominate for his journey].&quot;


So likewise this answers the question of the child of Esmenet and Kellhus or Moenghus's Scylvendi bastard, as they would and will just be more than a man as is Maithanet, but not Dunyain therefore not Harbringer.

I think the next different line of questioning in this post was Edge of Certainty's on Seswatha.

also, isn't it rumored that Anasurimbor Nau-Cayuti was the illegitimate son of Seswatha?


I think you are refering to a passage from The Thousandfold Thought where Esmenet reads The Sagas. During this time she reads &quot;The Kayutiad.&quot;

&quot;The Kayutiad,&quot; the verse epic of Celmomas's youngest and most glorious son, Nau-Cayuti, where Seswatha was both teacher and surrogate father.


I believe by using the word surrogate Bakker just meant that Seswatha was there for Nau-Cayuti more than Celmomas in the role of friend, teacher, and mentor.

I hope that answered your questions for this thread. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 09 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Moenghus's statements on the children not being Dunyain are not reliable indicators of anything other than Moenghus beliefs and he is shown to not be infallible. In fact, his errors lead to his death. This has been discussed in other threads but to restate a few points

1) The Dunyain cull their own ranks. Thus the Dunyain born don't measure up. A far larger statistical sample than Moenghus would have been able to generate would be required to know whether Moenghus's offspring were merely a statistical aberration

2) Dunyain training is resource intensive in the form of enviromental conditions, the need for skilled trainers, etcetera. There are far more limits on Moenghus's ability to recrateate the conditions at Ishual than there are to Kelhus's.

3) Genetics inheritance, especially for intelligence, isn't a sure thing. The Dunyain breed for reflexes and intelligence and then cull (what percentage, we don't know) but that only means that doesn't insure superiority over world born men, just high performance in those areas.

4) Maithanet maybe inferior to a Dunyain in Moenghus's estimation, but he was still able to quickly seize control of the Thousand Temples, uncover spies and skin spies, and was confident of his ability to personally seize and disable a skin spy sorcerer. Those are impressive accomplishments and not much inferior to what a Dunyain could do. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 10 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think you are refering to a passage from The Thousandfold Thought where Esmenet reads The Sagas. During this time she reads &quot;The Kayutiad.&quot;


Well I dont know if Edge was talking about that particualr passage but there are other subtle hints and mentions of Seswatha being his true father which was a possible reason for the tension between them, I dont have the book on me so I cant give any page numbers.

As for the Harbringer question it could be argued that Mathanet or Moenghus are the Harbringer not that Im saying one of them is the Harbringer I mostly started this topic to see what other people had to say.

I enjoyed both Cynical and your posts and ideas. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 10 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Nauticus, Auditor

Kind of like a &quot;what came first? The chicken or the egg?&quot; argument.

Does the Harbringer come and start the Apocalypse, or does the Apocalypse start and he comes to signify it? view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 11 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Krijates Iryssas, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Nauticus&quot;:3pjz1vcg
Kind of like a &quot;what came first? The chicken or the egg?&quot; argument.

Does the Harbringer come and start the Apocalypse, or does the Apocalypse start and he comes to signify it?[/quote:3pjz1vcg]

Good argument against Kellhus' Logos principes of what comes first determines what comes after <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: -->
causality =/= linear time, even if they often go in the same direction view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 11 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Harrol, Moderator

In the Appendages of TTT it states that Seswatha is believed to be Nau-Cayati father after having an affair with Nau's mother. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 12 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Exactly Harrol. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 27 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Madness, Peralogue

I guess perhaps there's been a lack of interesting topics lately, as no one seems to be writing much in the forums concerning the Prince of Nothing. I hope people are still reading, however, as there's so much to be discussed and brainstormed about these books.

First, I'd like to write a rebuttal towards Cynical's points on my ideas concerning Moenghus' children.

Moenghus's statements on the children not being Dunyain are not reliable indicators of anything other than Moenghus beliefs and he is shown to not be infallible. In fact, his errors lead to his death.


True, Moenghus' statements on Dunyain + non-Dunyain offspring cannot be taken as 100% truth, as it is speculation on his part and a character of even Moenghus' abilities can be wrong. However, the statements made are not wrong due to his beliefs, as he has not yet come to believe anything, but due to his hindered Dunyain abilities and progress through the Thousandfold Thought. Likewise, his death is not caused by any error of his unless you count him putting out his eyes, but caused by Kellhus' more extensive exploration of the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus did not yet know the possibilities that branched from his encounter with Kellhus as it had taken him a large part of his thirty years to grasp that the Thought included a summons to Ishual and his true son. I honestly don't think he explored the Thousandfold Thought much after grasping this, thinking that possibilites and the shortest path would become apparent to him upon meeting his son.

As to your other points, Cynical. In all honesty I think the first three have already been negated by other members in this and other threads.

To just quickly sum them up, though I wish I had my copy of TTT handy.

Yes, the Dunyain cull their own ranks. Considering that they've been doing this for two thousands years, I would assume that by these days they're doing a little less culling. Though this somewhat goes off on a tangent I'd like to throw in another thought I've had as it ties into this, though I know I'm negating one of my own points from this or another thread. All Dunyain are not all Anasurimbor. They can't be or otherwise you would have an effect of imbreading rather than, for lack of a better word, outbreading. Anyhow, as the Dunyain did and do cull their ranks every generation, each subsequent generation gets smarter then breeds with eachother, then cull the less intelligent and physically fit again, and repeat. Compound that two thousand years.

Therefore, to tie it back to your point or points I guess as it hits a couple of them, when Moenghus and Kellhus couple with worldborn women their children can never compare to true Dunyain. Which is also why Kellhus uses Esmenet, her being a very intelligent women in a male dominate society.

Point 2 and 3 kind of deal with my above paragraph. When commenting or thinking on the Dunyain you have to think in terms of two thousand years, as Cnaiur does. Moenghus probably did try and duplicate Ishual and their teachings when raising Maithanet for his task. However, knowing that a worldborn child couldn't compare with true Dunyain, there was no need for Moenghus to try and train Maithanet as such. In my opinion, I think Moenghus viewed Maithanet as a tool just as any other worldborn man. Though this is speculation on my part, Moenghus had probably grasped the beginnings of the Thousandfold Thought just after Maithanet was born, and so saw Maithanet's uses in all the possibilities.

Your third point is as well ignorant of the above concept. Make no mistake, a Dunyain baby is not a worldborn baby. Perhaps in the days following the apocalypse a worldborn baby might have compared to a Dunyain one but, again, not after the compounding factor.

Genetics inheritance, especially for intelligence, isn't a sure thing. The Dunyain breed for reflexes and intelligence and then cull ... but that only means that doesn't insure superiority over world born men, just high performance in those areas.


Your right, Genetic inheritance especially for intelligence isn't a sure thing. However, as they do kill the offspring that don't measure up, as I said they probably have to do a lot less culling these days.

I don't mean to sound superior or rude because I, in all likelihood, could be wrong in my writings, however, your last point I think was the only one of your four that brought up an intelligent counter-point.

Maithanet is inferior to Dunyain but superior to worldborn man. He's inbetween, in my understanding. He is also one of the Few as are many Dunyain, I assume, but as Proyas says to Achamian in TDTCB (oh, how I wish I had my books with me), many Shriah's have been of the Few. They just choose not to stain themselves with the blood-of-the-onta.

Maithanet was only able to

seize such control of the Thousand Temples, uncover spies and skin spies, and ... personally seize and disable a skin spy sorcerer


because of Moenghus' lengthy interrogation of the Consult skin-spies. Without Moenghus' as a father, with his grasping of the Thousandfold Though, Maithanet, regardless of natural intelligence and ability would not have been to do these things.

I am running out of time here to continue writing, however, I will attempt to give examples before I get cut off.

Think. Moenghus has Maithanet play to Inrithi faith by walking unharmed from heathen lands. He's able to uncover every factions spies through Cishaurim intelligence and counter-intelligence who would be able to identify Xerius' spies in the Thousand Temples, and pull out their own when their task was done, giving the illusion of cleansed. Maithanet himself could be the Cishaurim's spy if need be.

I'll give you a thought before I leave because I just thought about it.

What if the prior Shriah was a Consult skin-spy and through Moenghus' interrogations of the captured skin-spies he was able to assern this?

Hope that gave you food for thought, Cynical and any other readers. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 28 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by vercint, Peralogue

Hey, someone actually posted without offering sexual services or amazing poker playing!

Two points.

First, I think we can say for certain that many of the Dunyain are of the Few. Moenghus contacted them through dreams, using the Cishaurim version of the spell Akka names 'Calling'. In TWP Akka explains how this cant works: the person doing the calling must know the person he's calling to, and he must know where the person is. Logically, both people must also be of the Few. Moenghus therefore could only Call those Dunyain he knew at Ishual, which is why only elder Dunyain were had the dreams in the beginning of TDTCB. Given the regularity of the Dunyain lifestyle he could also know where these people slept. Those of the elder Dunyain that had the dreams would have been of the Few, elsewise they could not have received Moenghus' cant.

Second, concerning Moenghus' judgement of Maithanet. As I recall, he bases this judgement as much on the fact that Maithanet has not grown up in Ishual as on his worldborn ancestry. Dunyain superority is not merely about genetics, the cultural advantge -- that is, the way they are raised -- is at least as important, especially when it comes to mental ability. There is obviously no way Moenghus could have trained his son as thoroughly as the Dunyain train their children at Ishual. Whether or not Maithanet would be judged as 'defective' in Ishual because he is less naturally gifted is beside the point; given his limited training there is no way he would measure up to a true Dunyain. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 28 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

You do realize however that any Dunyain remaining at Ishual that were of the Few are now dead as we know from the start of Darkness, not to say that more won't be born later, who knows how the death of the Few Dunyain is going to affect the breeding program. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 28 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Harrol, Moderator

If Moe did not know any of the younger Dunyain with the ability then he could not have contacted them. Thus the reason Kellhus had not received the dream. view post


Anasurimbor Maithanet? posted 28 September 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAnasurimbor Maithanet? by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:e3lg1nqz


First, I'd like to write a rebuttal towards Cynical's points on my ideas concerning Moenghus' children.

Moenghus's statements on the children not being Dunyain are not reliable indicators of anything other than Moenghus beliefs and he is shown to not be infallible. In fact, his errors lead to his death.


True, Moenghus' statements on Dunyain + non-Dunyain offspring cannot be taken as 100% truth, as it is speculation on his part and a character of even Moenghus' abilities can be wrong. However, the statements made are not wrong due to his beliefs, as he has not yet come to believe anything, but due to his hindered Dunyain abilities and progress through the Thousandfold Thought. Likewise, his death is not caused by any error of his unless you count him putting out his eyes, but caused by Kellhus' more extensive exploration of the Thousandfold Thought. Moenghus did not yet know the possibilities that branched from his encounter with Kellhus as it had taken him a large part of his thirty years to grasp that the Thought included a summons to Ishual and his true son. I honestly don't think he explored the Thousandfold Thought much after grasping this, thinking that possibilites and the shortest path would become apparent to him upon meeting his son. [/quote:e3lg1nqz]

On the contrary, he immediately rejects Kelhus's claims of communicating with the No-God out of hand, choosing instead to believe that Kelhus is instead defective when available evidence shows that Kelhus is far from that. Moenghus does not investigate this claim or consider it, he immediately rules Kelhus broken because of it. This is not only a mistake, but one based on his belief system. His unwillingness to even consider the point was one of the reasons Kelhus decided to kill him. He was no longer useful and had become a dangerous liability. A fatal error.


As to your other points, Cynical. In all honesty I think the first three have already been negated by other members in this and other threads.


I haven't seen any effective rebutals to my points. If you think they exist, post them.


All Dunyain are not all Anasurimbor.


Statistically speaking, every one of European descent is probably a descdent of Charlamaigne. The Dunyain are a more concentrated population and have gone on for an even longer time. Not that being an Anasurimbor is one of my points, but after 2000 years in one place they are all related.


Anyhow, as the Dunyain did and do cull their ranks every generation, each subsequent generation gets smarter then breeds with eachother, then cull the less intelligent and physically fit again, and repeat. Compound that two thousand years.

They are still human beings, subject to the genetic lottery and limited by human physiology. Selective breeding isn't magic where you can guarrantee will get the traits you desire and two thousand years is a very short period of time, breeding wise. What its going to accomplish among the Dunyain is not being superhuman but the majority of their population tending towards the higher end of the traits they are breeding for (which are intelligence and reflexes).


Therefore, to tie it back to your point or points I guess as it hits a couple of them, when Moenghus and Kellhus couple with worldborn women their children can never compare to true Dunyain. Which is also why Kellhus uses Esmenet, her being a very intelligent women in a male dominate society.


Do you know what scientists call a sample size of 1? Too small. Kelhus and Moenghus can have mentally retarded children, children with dwarfism, short children, tall children, or brilliant children just like the rest of us.


Point 2 and 3 kind of deal with my above paragraph. When commenting or thinking on the Dunyain you have to think in terms of two thousand years, as Cnaiur does. Moenghus probably did try and duplicate Ishual and their teachings when raising Maithanet for his task. However, knowing that a worldborn child couldn't compare with true Dunyain, there was no need for Moenghus to try and train Maithanet as such.

Moenghus lacked the resources of an emperor or Ishual. The amount of experience and resources contained within a single pragma must be immense and Moenghus not only lacked them he was also blind. He provided an inferior training enviroment to Inshual, which flunks some of its students, and managed to train the Maithanet so that he produced many Dunyain skills.


Your third point is as well ignorant of the above concept. Make no mistake, a Dunyain baby is not a worldborn baby. Perhaps in the days following the apocalypse a worldborn baby might have compared to a Dunyain one but, again, not after the compounding factor.

Evidence? Two human babies, one part of a selective breeding program the other not. What if the Dunyain one is born with brain damage? Again I will remind you the Dunyain aren't superhuman. There is no guarrantee the Dunyain child is faster or smarter than the worldborn one, just a likelyhood that the Dunyain child will be faster and smarter than the average human.


Your right, Genetic inheritance especially for intelligence isn't a sure thing. However, as they do kill the offspring that don't measure up, as I said they probably have to do a lot less culling these days.


We have no knowledge of the exact culling numbers or how they change, but we are not without evidence. Inshual is not a large place and the preserved defectives with hooks in their faces are indicative of a fairly large cull. Even with modern medicine they are going to face a host of medical problems and live comparitively short lives (and thus need to be replaced). Given Inshual's limited population and that they aren't the only ones being culled, the culled would have to make a signifigant percentage of the population. One can only cull so much of the population without killing it off. To sum up, there's only so many that can cull without endangering themselves and they still cull signifigantly.


Maithanet is inferior to Dunyain but superior to worldborn man. He's inbetween, in my understanding. He is also one of the Few as are many Dunyain, I assume, but as Proyas says to Achamian in TDTCB (oh, how I wish I had my books with me), many Shriah's have been of the Few. They just choose not to stain themselves with the blood-of-the-onta.


Scott has indicated that the Few are a product of both genetics and the ability to think in certain ways. Dunyain training, despite denying the existence of sorcery, is clearly compatable with the thought processes of being the Few (Kelhus's performance in the TTT makes this a bit of an understatement).


Though, Maithanet, regardless of natural intelligence and ability would not have been to do these things.


Without being trained, no Dunyain can do anything extraordinary. Its the training that makes them exceptional. It clearly requires high levels of intelligence and quick reflexes to successfuly grasp. This is in fact, my point. It's the training that makes the Dunyain superior. Both Cnaiur and Kelhus are extraordinary individuals physically and mentally, but only one is Dunyain and that training makes the difference.


Think. Moenghus has Maithanet play to Inrithi faith by walking unharmed from heathen lands. He's able to uncover every factions spies through Cishaurim intelligence and counter-intelligence who would be able to identify Xerius' spies in the Thousand Temples, and pull out their own when their task was done, giving the illusion of cleansed. Maithanet himself could be the Cishaurim's spy if need be.


I don't know what your point here is. I've been saying all along that Maithanet is extraordinary.


What if the prior Shriah was a Consult skin-spy and through Moenghus' interrogations of the captured skin-spies he was able to assern this?


Quite possible. That's one of the things that makes them scary. view post


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