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Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 28 February 2006 in Author Q & AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Ikiru, Candidate

Scott (am I allowed to call you that?),

I'm wondering why Kellhus and Moenghus are both of the Few. At first, this seemed a little contrived to me, but after finishing TTT I sense that you did it for a very specific reason.

Moenghus, when describing his theory of God, suggests that God "sleeps" and can only awakened by striving for the Absolute in the Dunyain manner. Is there something about the Dunyain training that has awakened this power in them - have all Dunyain "awakened" the God, and thus the ability to work sorcery, inside themselves, even though they deny the very existence of the supernatural?

Or is it something about the Anasurimbor line? I initially thought that perhaps Kellhus has the power because he is a Prophet, and thus a sort of portal to the Outside, but that wouldn't explain Moenghus. It seems very convenient that these two men of an ancient, noble bloodline are also among the Few.

There's also Kellhus's idea that the Few are those who recollect the unity of souls and universal "Here," but I'm not sure if that really explains Moenghus and Kellhus being among their number...

Anyway, I doubt I'll get an answer to this, but maybe you can throw a tantalizing cryptic statement or two my way? <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 28 February 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Scott has mentioned before that there is a genetic component to being of the Few and able to work Sorcery. I have a feeling that there is a large number of the Few among the Dunyain. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 28 February 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Linnea, Candidate

Didn`t he also say that the genetic inheritability is much stronger among nonmen?Since the Anasurimbors have nonman blood that might mean that all of them have been born to the few since that time.
Hmm,maybe Kellhus won`t age as quickly as other men. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 28 February 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Ikiru, Candidate

Well, that makes sense, but still, it seems like there might be a deeper explanation, given the metaphysical implications of sorcery as described by Kellhus (ie, being of the Few is recollecting the one-ness of the soul, which is synonymous with God). If Kellhus is right, how could any Prophet NOT be of the Few?

It also makes sense when you think of the fact that Prophet Fane, according to the glossary of TTT, was the first of the Cishaurim, and thus of the Few. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Cu'jara Cinmoi, Author of Prince of Nothing

The idea is that pertains to a certain kind of ability to remember. Since memory, like other cognitive capacities, seems to be somewhat heritable, so is the ability - but only somewhat. The thing with the Dunyain, however, is that they have spent millennia breeding for certain cognitive capacities.

I'm afraid there's not much I can say, Ikiru. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->

Otherwise, you're allowed to call me whatever you want, Ikiru - this actually isn't my board. I just prefer Scott. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Mithfânion, Didact

Which triggers the assumption that the Dunyain are in fact more likely to be of the Few than Non-Dunyain. Is that a correct assumption Scott? view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Dunyain just got a little more frightening. Imagine if the Consult recruited them all. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Zarathinius, Auditor

That would be scary as hell, but the Consult still don't know everything they want to know about the Dunyain. The Dunyain have selectively bred themselves over millenia, and that combined with genetic drift in a somewhat small, cloistered population means that they could be a bomb of sorcery waiting to go off. Kellhus mastered the Gnosis with the same rapidity he learns everything, so the Dunyain as a whole could be greater than the entire Mandate school if a great number of them learned sorcery.
Just my two cents. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 15 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

The future is certainly looking like its going to get a whole lot more violent in PoN. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by stormchaser, Candidate

I too wondered about the seeming coincidence that Kellhus and his father were both of the Few, and the answer I came up with was not so much that they were both Dunyain, but rather that they are both Anasurimbors. Their distant royal ancestor Celmomas II was clearly capable of prophecy, and thus was likely one of the Few. It follows that if some of the Dunyain are now capable of sorcery, then the genetic source of that ability likely lies with the Anasurimbor line. Remember that the Dunyain themselves don't even believe in the existence of sorcery, and also that the Dunyain/Anasurimbor connection came about purely by chance (or so it would appear). It seems to me that Dunyain conditioning is certainly responsible for Kelluss' uncanny ability to quickly master the Gnosis, but may actually have very little to do with his being one of the Few. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;stormchaser&quot;:26kqu74k
I too wondered about the seeming coincidence that Kellhus and his father were both of the Few, and the answer I came up with was not so much that they were both Dunyain, but rather that they are both Anasurimbors. Their distant royal ancestor Celmomas II was clearly capable of prophecy, and thus was likely one of the Few. It follows that if some of the Dunyain are now capable of sorcery, then the genetic source of that ability likely lies with the Anasurimbor line. Remember that the Dunyain themselves don't even believe in the existence of sorcery, and also that the Dunyain/Anasurimbor connection came about purely by chance (or so it would appear). It seems to me that Dunyain conditioning is certainly responsible for Kelluss' uncanny ability to quickly master the Gnosis, but may actually have very little to do with his being one of the Few.[/quote:26kqu74k]

Well Scott's answer above sort of contradicts that. It seems like there is a genetic component that can be bred for, the same way intellect can. The Dunyain breeding programme which breeds for specific cognitive abilities also would select for the ability to work Sorcery at the same time. I have a feeling a rather large portion of the Dunyain would have the ability to learn Sorcery, if the opportunity presented itself and they were convinved that it existed and all of that. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by stormchaser, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:myq2z9uc
Quote: &quot;stormchaser&quot;:myq2z9uc
I too wondered about the seeming coincidence that Kellhus and his father were both of the Few, and the answer I came up with was not so much that they were both Dunyain, but rather that they are both Anasurimbors. Their distant royal ancestor Celmomas II was clearly capable of prophecy, and thus was likely one of the Few. It follows that if some of the Dunyain are now capable of sorcery, then the genetic source of that ability likely lies with the Anasurimbor line. Remember that the Dunyain themselves don't even believe in the existence of sorcery, and also that the Dunyain/Anasurimbor connection came about purely by chance (or so it would appear). It seems to me that Dunyain conditioning is certainly responsible for Kelluss' uncanny ability to quickly master the Gnosis, but may actually have very little to do with his being one of the Few.[/quote:myq2z9uc]

Well Scott's answer above sort of contradicts that. It seems like there is a genetic component that can be bred for, the same way intellect can. The Dunyain breeding programme which breeds for specific cognitive abilities also would select for the ability to work Sorcery at the same time. I have a feeling a rather large portion of the Dunyain would have the ability to learn Sorcery, if the opportunity presented itself and they were convinved that it existed and all of that.[/quote:myq2z9uc]

Maybe, and certainly Scott has the last word. It's just that so much of what we're shown of the Dunyain and their techniques involves ways of understanding and mastering the natural world exactly as it is, as opposed to sorcery which involves remaking reality in ways that completely transcend natural law. I don't see a whole lot of correspondence between the two disciplines. The idea that the Dunyain have been breeding for sorcery without even knowing it seems just a tad too pat, given the complete worldliness and absolute practicality of the Dunyain world view.

Then there is the question of the soul. The Dunyain goal is to create a truly self-willed soul, freed from the limitations of what comes before. If the use of sorcery really imperils the average sorcerer's soul, then what happens to an enlightened self-willed Dunyain Absolute Soul? Who knows, the Dunyain might reject sorcery on purely metaphysical grounds. There are some glib explanations given in TTT about the bruising of the soul or lack of it in the various kinds of sorcery, and it is said that with the coming of Kellhus sorcery need no longer automatically damn the practitioner. The thing is, I don't know if I still believe those explanations. After all, at the time I read them I was clearly under the influence of a Dunyain. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

you know, what's always bugged me is why the dunyain refer to the absolute as a self moving &quot;soul.&quot; I would think that the dunyain would refrain from using that term since they had no direct evidence that souls exist (or do they?)....before Mohengus and Kellhus journeyed off into the world, none of the dunyain believed in sorcery either. Why would they believe in souls? view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 16 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;stormchaser&quot;:3m4u65md

Maybe, and certainly Scott has the last word. It's just that so much of what we're shown of the Dunyain and their techniques involves ways of understanding and mastering the natural world exactly as it is, as opposed to sorcery which involves remaking reality in ways that completely transcend natural law. I don't see a whole lot of correspondence between the two disciplines. The idea that the Dunyain have been breeding for sorcery without even knowing it seems just a tad too pat, given the complete worldliness and absolute practicality of the Dunyain world view.
[/quote:3m4u65md]

The Dunyain believe that Sorcery is merely superstition, and do not believe in it being real until they are confronted with it. (As happened to Moenghus and Kelhus after leaving Ishual) But as Scott said the ability to work Sorcery is inherently based on certain cognitive and intellectual abilities and predispositions, making the two tied together. The Dunyain do not practice Sorcery obviously, but from what little we've been shown I think that a rather large portion of them are of the Few, and would have the ability to work Sorcery should they chose to learn.

Whether they reject it or not is another matter entirely. Certainly Kelhus came to the conclusion that the Dunyain, should they learn the truth as he sees it, would ultimately side with the Consult because in order to achieve their mission the influence of the Outside would need to be removed. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 17 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:6ogq8e55
Quote: &quot;stormchaser&quot;:6ogq8e55

Maybe, and certainly Scott has the last word. It's just that so much of what we're shown of the Dunyain and their techniques involves ways of understanding and mastering the natural world exactly as it is, as opposed to sorcery which involves remaking reality in ways that completely transcend natural law. I don't see a whole lot of correspondence between the two disciplines. The idea that the Dunyain have been breeding for sorcery without even knowing it seems just a tad too pat, given the complete worldliness and absolute practicality of the Dunyain world view.
[/quote:6ogq8e55]

The Dunyain believe that Sorcery is merely superstition, and do not believe in it being real until they are confronted with it. (As happened to Moenghus and Kelhus after leaving Ishual) But as Scott said the ability to work Sorcery is inherently based on certain cognitive and intellectual abilities and predispositions, making the two tied together. The Dunyain do not practice Sorcery obviously, but from what little we've been shown I think that a rather large portion of them are of the Few, and would have the ability to work Sorcery should they chose to learn.

Whether they reject it or not is another matter entirely. Certainly Kelhus came to the conclusion that the Dunyain, should they learn the truth as he sees it, would ultimately side with the Consult because in order to achieve their mission the influence of the Outside would need to be removed.[/quote:6ogq8e55]


I agree completely. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 17 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by H, Auditor

There is the possiblity that the Dunyain know extactly what they are doing, and only tell their members that there is no sorcery to keep them from becoming too powerful... view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 17 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

You mean the Pragmas keeping secrects from the regular Dunyain? That would be interesting. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by stormchaser, Candidate

There is the possiblity that the Dunyain know extactly what they are doing, and only tell their members that there is no sorcery to keep them from becoming too powerful...


An intriguing possibility, H. I tend to doubt the Pragmas would tell falsehoods to their charges on a regular basis, but who knows? Well OK, Scott probably does, but I suspect he ain't telling.

It does bring up a rather interesting question, though. Can a Dunyain tell another Dunyain an outright lie without being detected? I don't recall this as being something directly addressed in the book. I remember that Kellhus has to go to great lengths to keep his true thoughts and intentions hidden from his father when they finally meet face to face. I suspect flat-out lying is extremely difficult, maybe even impossible between Dunyain of Kellhus and Moenghus' stature. In their case deceit is probably best accomplished through subtler means: misdirection, sins of omission, any tactic that doesn't quite rise to the level of lying but is capable of producing the same result. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

A conversation between two Dunyain would be quite difficult especially if one is trying to lie or misdirect do you recall how Kellhus and his father both continuosly dipped into the Probability trance. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 March 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I thought it was one of the coolest parts of TTT, seing two Dunyain of that caliber discoursing. And Moenghusg of course was partially crippled by not being able to see, although he can do quite alot with his his ears. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Mandati Shinigami13, Commoner

I just read the last train of thought, and it occured to me that every one who recieved the 'dream' that Moengus sent save Kellhus were sent into the Thousand Thousand halls to die. This could provide a partial hint that the leaders of the Dunyain are holding things back from their followers. However, I personally believe that they are unaware-but that's just me. Also, how high up in the ranks are/were Kellhus and Moengus? That in itself could answer a few of these questions. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Mandati Shinigami13&quot;:1c3czxbf
... that every one who recieved the 'dream' that Moengus sent save Kellhus were sent into the Thousand Thousand halls to die. This could provide a partial hint that the leaders of the Dunyain are holding things back from their followers. [/quote:1c3czxbf]

No, I think they choose to die because they had been polluted by the outside world.

Hummmm Just thought about it and it gives more credence to the fact that they would associates themselves with the Consult to block the world from the Outside. Just to keep from being polluted by &quot;wild cards&quot;.

Anyway. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Mandati Shinigami13, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Tol h'Eddes&quot;:cbr3p3qk


No, I think they choose to die because they had been polluted by the outside world.

Hummmm Just thought about it and it gives more credence to the fact that they would associates themselves with the Consult to block the world from the Outside. Just to keep from being polluted by &quot;wild cards&quot;.

Anyway. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->[/quote:cbr3p3qk]

Well, that's the supposed reason. But I probably agree. And I'm a big fan of the 'dunyain as consult' idea. But with their intellect, what would their position be? Would they be able to rise to the top and take over? Or would their new masters decide to do a bit of 'research' to find out what makes them so awesome? view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Mandati Shinigami13&quot;:yivlok4y
Well, that's the supposed reason. But I probably agree. And I'm a big fan of the 'dunyain as consult' idea. But with their intellect, what would their position be? Would they be able to rise to the top and take over? Or would their new masters decide to do a bit of 'research' to find out what makes them so awesome?[/quote:yivlok4y]

IMHO, I think we get a pretty good idea in TTT, when Kellhus is seduced by the synthese controlling Esmenet :

They would be seduced at first, and after a while their Dunyain training would kick in and they would be the one taking control.

So, I think the Consult could use them for some time, but the Dunyain would finally take over. That or we haven't seen everything the Consult is capable of... view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 18 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Mandati Shinigami13, Commoner

Well, it's hard to imagine a normal Dunyain trying to reason with bashrag or wracu. So unless they make it up by subtly going against the synthese or something, who knows. Plus we don't really know enough about the Consult to make a really informed conclusion. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 19 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Tol h'Eddes, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Mandati Shinigami13&quot;:8u5u7xlt
Well, it's hard to imagine a normal Dunyain trying to reason with bashrag or wracu. So unless they make it up by subtly going against the synthese or something, who knows. Plus we don't really know enough about the Consult to make a really informed conclusion.[/quote:8u5u7xlt]

Sorry to ask but isn't a Bashrag a demon and not a creation of the Consult?

You got a point for the wracu. But I think that before sending them monsters and demons, the Consult would try to deal with them directly.

On the same topic, do we know what happened to the search they were doing, at the end of WP? I remember the raids and them torturing villagers, asking about the Dunyain... But do we know (by Scott or the books) what happened after? view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 19 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Curethan, Didact

The why of Kellhus and Moenghus being of the few is very interesting - I'm pretty sure Celomomas wasn't of the few - but he did make that prophecy about Kellhus, and during K &amp; M's discourse at the end of TTT Kellhus makes the point during his internal musings that if prophecy is real, then the precepts of the Dunyain are erroneous.

&quot;Prophecy could not be. If the ends of things governed their beginnings, if what came after determined what came before, then how could he have dominated the souls of so many? And how could the Thousandfold Thought have come to rule the Three Seas?&quot;

If the prophecy is true, then Kellhus and Moenghus are merely pawns of the Thousandfold Thought and, by extension, it's progenitor in the future. Which would kind of explain why they are of the few - it's all part of the prophecy, man. (Hope not, prophecy is a hackneyed old beast in the genre)

Or they're just of the few because of the reincarnation theory that Kellhus espouses to Akka. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 19 May 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Cause, Candidate

A bashrag is definatly a consult construct. From scotts own mouth. Basically its a creature designed to be able to overpower a nonman. Like the sranc the template for its DNA is nonman and so in order to enhance its strenght they were forced to give it a redundant skeleton, 3 arms or legs etc fused toghether as one so they could add 3 times the muscle mass. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 03 September 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Krijates Iryssas, Candidate

speaking about breeding among the Dunyain, given how long they've been isolated... shouldn't ALL of the Dunyain be &quot;Anasürimbor&quot; as in sharing their ancestry, regardless of their last name (i assume the name is transmitted patrilineary, though why the Dunyain would bother keeping track of only the patrilenage through name escapes me)? view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 23 September 2006 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Madness, Peralogue

I'm wondering why Kellhus and Moenghus are both of the Few.


Ikiru, I believe, without discounting Scott's words obviously, that your answer is found in TTT and a little in Krijates Iryssas's last post (See above.)

Though it's never blatantly written as true, though some like to take it for certainty, I would say that the reason so many Dunyain, and synonymously Anasurimbor, are of the Few lies in the legends and rumours of Seswatha's fathering of Nau-Cayuti.

This, of course, is also assuming that Nau-Cayuti had any children before he died. However, what better reason, again aside from Scott's words, is there for the only two Dunyain exiled from Ishual, and subsequently probably more Dunyain, to be of the Few? view post


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