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Questions regarding Conphas posted 24 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "Mohajir":16kksj8r
Why was Ikurei Conphas removed? He was one of the most fascinating characters in the series. [/quote:16kksj8r]

Well there are many reasons thematically and such I suppose, but he was removed because Bakker decided that that is what fit the story best. Scott has said before that he really enjoyed writing Conphas, because Conphas is an interesting character. But, in my opinion, that is hardly a reason to simply keep someone around. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Mohajir&quot;:16kksj8r
Why did Cnaur turn down Conphas' forgiveness/generous offer? Conphas was offering him an army to eliminate Moenghus and Kellhus in a single stroke.[/quote:16kksj8r]

Cnaiur IS mad, and although he built some respect for Conphas I think, he hardly likes the man. I can't pinpoint some exact reason but I just can't see Cnaiur being bought by Conphas, he would find it degrading.

Quote: &quot;Mohajir&quot;:16kksj8r
Saubon's abrupt appearance and subsequent beheading of Conphas reeks of the "easy" way out for Bakker. I was expecting an alliance between those who stood apart from Kellhus' machinations...Cnaur, Conphas, Akka, and Proyas.[/quote:16kksj8r]

Proyas didn't exactly stand apart from Kellhus' machinations <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> He struggled a little bit but I'm pretty sure he fell for most of it hook, line, and sinker so to speak. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> While I think Saubon's arrival was fortuitous, I wouldn't exactly call it the "easy" way out.

Quote: &quot;Mohajir&quot;:16kksj8r
How in the world did Conphas' army mutiny? The had never been exposed to Kellhus.[/quote:16kksj8r]

I saw this coming, the army was loyal to Conphas above all but they weren't isolated from Kellhus completely. There were various other factors but I think it came doen to a loss of respect/believe in their general. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 24 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by sogah, Commoner

Heard a great interview with George R.R. Martin recently where he talked about how people get angry about all the gratuitous sex in his novels. His response was that there are lots of gratuitous things in his novels (sex, violence, even feasting) if you define gratuitous as something that doesn't advance the plot. But just because something doesn't advance the plot doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the book. Xinemus's blinding showed us a lot about his character, as well as about Akka, Proyas, and Esmenet. All of that plus what you just mentioned seems like a good enough reason for its inclusion to me. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Andrew, Peralogue

Xin's blinding was for me, one of the most brutal and painful elements in these books. like, you compare the man before and after - just really terrible. The whole scene with Iyokus's eyes, that can't but affect you in a serious way. I think that Xin is kind of like a metaphor for all of the men of the tusk. What they came to achieve vs. how they were essentially enslaved falsely by Kellus.

Re the death of Conphas - i agree that he was a fabuloius character. HOwever, I can't imagine Kellus allowing him to live. NOR can i imagine any opposition to kellus becoming a consolidated force standing apart from the mass acceptance. With Kellus, you are either dominated or set aside. Another point is that Conphas has already used up his luck - he barely survived Kellus' initial attack and only by the hand of a skin spy. So i don't view his subsequent death as being too "convenient". Looking at modern or ancient history in OUR world, life rarely follows set or convenient paths. THere is a lot of happenstance and unpredicted events that are responsible for world history. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

All good points about Xin, his blinding is also used as an important dynamic with Achamian. Just like Esmenet was Achamian's dawn, Xinemus was in a very literal sense a representation of his nights. Xinemus blinded and Compulsed to beg Achamian for his life....with how we know the Cants of Compulsion work, and Xin and Acha's relationhip.... coupled with the fact that even if he wanted to Achamian would not have been able to save Xinemus well... I think you get where I'm headed. <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by rycanada, Peralogue

As Andrew said, "THere is a lot of happenstance and unpredicted events that are responsible for world history."

but then again, when a Dunyain Gnostic sorcerer is around... they get a lot less unpredictable. Things start to fall into place - like the convenient death of the Aspect-Emperor. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Darlan Laerdon, Commoner

Personally, I was under the impression that Kellhus had predicted Conphas attacking him at the battle of Shimeh and had Saubon shadowing the army the whole time. Conphas died because he fell straight into the trap. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 25 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Harrol, Moderator

I believe that the the reason Conphas died is because the army and the imperial sorcerers lost faith in him. Well how is that? One point that was spoken of several times in the last two books. No one had lost more sons to the Fanimiry that the empire had. So here the empire's ancient enemy is on the ropes on the verge of complete destruction and Conphas tells his army let's go destroy our fellow men of the tusk and save our ancient foe. That is not going to fly with his army so therefor they betrayed him at the moment of his greatest need. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Abyss, Commoner

A few points...

The Nansur army was ripe for rebellion... even when they left the Holy War initially, there was some uncertainty and defection. Then the 'deserters' who stayed loyal to Conphas saw or knew of their leader being utterly humiliated by Cnaiur (let's be clear - beaten and raped by a Scylvendi - a people he was supposed to have crushed).

And then when he turns the tabels on Cnaiur, he loses him, freaks out and sends his entire cavalry off after him.

And THEN a Mandate schoolman comes along and just wrecks the Nansur army, trashing the supposedly powerful Saik just before they ambush the Men of the Tusk on Shimeh's doorstep.

And THEN Saubon's forces show up (and I agree this was Kellhus' plan the whole time) and further turn the odds.

So things weren't looking good for the would be Emporer at that point.


- Abyss, figures Conphas was having a really bad week by the end there. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Diem Kaye, Candidate

I think the reason Conphas was killed was pretty simple, just looking at it from an Author's point of view. Conphas's part in the story had run its course. He did everything he had to do for the storyline and to keep him alive while Kelhus was the Aspect-Emperor, would just lead to either plot problems (since Conphas would have never submitted to Kelhus) or just make him feel like, "Joe Schmoe B".

He was a great and enjoyable character and Bakker let him go in the most fitting way possible. A bloody death in battle. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 02 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Once Conphas turns on Kelhus, which he was going to do, only one of them is getting out alive. It doesn't matter if he died in battle or not, Kelhus was going to arrange his death one way or the other. And the conquerer of the Fanim is going to be the most powerful man in the Three Seas. It makes sense that the confrontation and climax happened there. It also makes sense that only one of them survived it. It was all or nothing, a zero some game. Conphas lost and he was a dead man even if he had managed to survive the battle. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 04 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Noctis, Candidate

Plus, Kellhus at the end combines several roles, one of them being Aspect- Emperor, which is a lot easier to do politically if the Emperor (and his dynasty) is dead. It is a shame to lose the Ikurei, though, they were a fascinating family. I wonder if Grandma survived? view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 04 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Grandma has been dead since Darkness, she was a skin spy the whole time. At least that was the impression i got after reading TTT and rereading Darkness and WP. In the passage where she gives Xerius the girl as a sex gift she seemed very intent on knowing how Skaeos was discovered. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Noctis, Candidate

Wow, that's not at all what I got; Xerius seemed to think that she looked more beautiful than usual on the night of the assassination. This made me think she'd been temporarily replaced and he was semi-unconsciously noticing. Could have been the wine though I suppose....

Guess I need to go back and read the earlier bits with her again. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Read pg 36-40 of WP and take special notice of the last sentence. Also notice the whole time she seemed to be getting him riled up about the Cishaurim and strongly disliked his pact with them. If im right i could see her being a skin spy since Xerius' childhood perhaps even the night she seduced him. I mean seducing your son and having him kill his own father to ensure his path to the throne, I mean what better way to manipulate and control an empire than that. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:2yzgcn58
Read pg 36-40 of WP and take special notice of the last sentence. Also notice the whole time she seemed to be getting him riled up about the Cishaurim and strongly disliked his pact with them. If im right i could see her being a skin spy since Xerius' childhood perhaps even the night she seduced him. I mean seducing your son and having him kill his own father to ensure his path to the throne, I mean what better way to manipulate and control an empire than that.[/quote:2yzgcn58]

Even before the TTT appeared it was suggested that Xerius' mother had been replaced by a skin spy, on the strength of that passage and she was also uniquely vulnerable. However, in the absence of further evidence it is likely that the impersonation took place only about 10-12 years ago, i.e. when Moenghus first discovered the skin spies in the Three Seas. In other words Istriya(?) did not have to be a skin spy to emulate Nero's mother (Agrippina?). view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 05 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Diem Kaye, Candidate

I think it's pretty safe to assume that the characters we didn't originally realize we're skin spies (Xerius's mother, Simas) were skin spies all along. Simas is the one that interests me, just because my first read through I had always assumed he'd been replaced sometime in TWP or TTT but I started reading the DtCB again, and Nautzera's feelings and thoughts regarding Simas during their dialogue leads me to think he was a skin spy far before the series even started. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Diem Kaye&quot;:2wyet2zg
I think it's pretty safe to assume that the characters we didn't originally realize we're skin spies (Xerius's mother, Simas) were skin spies all along. Simas is the one that interests me, just because my first read through I had always assumed he'd been replaced sometime in TWP or TTT but I started reading the DtCB again, and Nautzera's feelings and thoughts regarding Simas during their dialogue leads me to think he was a skin spy far before the series even started.[/quote:2wyet2zg]

Simas replacement must have taken place at least before Achamian confided to him about Inrau (maybe 2-3? years before the 1st novel) - unSimas wouild not have known about Inrau otherwise. However, the Skin Spies were a fairly recent development, and I suspect (I will have to reread the relevant info) that Moenghus as Mallahet was already part of the Cishaurim hierarchy before he noticed the arrival of the skin spies. This was 10 years ago, the time the Cishaurim turned off Sasheoka in misguided retaliation. Regarding Istriya's imposture, we have no way of knowing whether replacement was made before or after Skeaos unmasking. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Skin-Spies have been around for a long time, how long I don't know but certainly longer than 200 years since we have a Skin-Spy who was a Scylvendi then. I would think they've likely been around even longer, after all the Consult no longer even knows how to make them anymore. They were only discovered 10-12 years ago by Moenghus, or at least that is when he decided to reveal them. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by unJon, Auditor

*nods* in agreement with Black on all points except the Cishaurim. I do think that the Consult only infiltrated them in the last dozen years.

Edit: EE beat me to it. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:1owv4l0k
The Skin-Spies have been around for a long time, how long I don't know but certainly longer than 200 years since we have a Skin-Spy who was a Scylvendi then. I would think they've likely been around even longer, after all the Consult no longer even knows how to make them anymore. They were only discovered 10-12 years ago by Moenghus, or at least that is when he decided to reveal them.[/quote:1owv4l0k]

@EE did (Aurang?) the bird man say that skin spies were no longer able to be manufactured or that they were difficult and costly to make? Maybe the sequencer back at Golgotterath is on the fritz. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 06 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Noctis, Candidate

Anor, loved the Nero reference...

Nero's mother and grandmother were both named Agrippina, btw. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 07 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:25c23v98
Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:25c23v98
The Skin-Spies have been around for a long time, how long I don't know but certainly longer than 200 years since we have a Skin-Spy who was a Scylvendi then. I would think they've likely been around even longer, after all the Consult no longer even knows how to make them anymore. They were only discovered 10-12 years ago by Moenghus, or at least that is when he decided to reveal them.[/quote:25c23v98]

@EE did (Aurang?) the bird man say that skin spies were no longer able to be manufactured or that they were difficult and costly to make? Maybe the sequencer back at Golgotterath is on the fritz.[/quote:25c23v98]

Aurang didn't specifically say one way or the other. We do know, that at the very least Skin-Spies have been around for centuries, at least 300 years (when the Consult withdrew from the Three Seas), although I have a suspicion they are older and likely date back as far as the Apocalypse. I could be wrong and this is merely conjecture on my part. I can definitly see an argument for them being only created in the last 300 years since it would be a good reason for the Consult to withdraw from view.

Aurang does lament that the Skin-Spies are so few in number since their unveiling. (Which btw Aurang refers to decades in the plural since Moenghus first outed the Skin-Spies in the lands of the Fanim.) So perhaps it is merely difficult to manufacture them now. Likely if they still make them for every success they have 5 fail (sort of like with cloning... we can do it but it takes alot of botched attempts for every success.) This I think is the most likely scenario based on a quick re-read of several key parts of thhe book that come from Aurang's POV. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 07 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

@EE, I reread the same passage last night. Aurang says that the skin spies are now so few in number. As regards Mallahet, conceivably, when he "outed" them they had just (or recently) replaced the original Cishaurim - his visual perception might not be good enough to discover them de novo, and he would have to have relied on the originals' voices if he discovered them by voice alone.

@Noctis, it has been a long time since I read Robert Graves (or indeed watched the TV series) - Nero's grandfather (Agrippina the elder's husband?) was Germanicus right, and Agrippina younger survived her uncle and husband Claudius? Who needs skin spies when you've got Nero, Tiberius, and Caligula? view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 07 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Noctis, Candidate

Yep, and Agrippina the Younger probably had a hand in bumping off her husband &amp; uncle Claudius, in order to install Nero as emperor.

After a few years, Nero had her assassinated as well. Gotta love the Julio-Claudians. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 07 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;anor277&quot;:2b6woi1u
@EE, I reread the same passage last night. Aurang says that the skin spies are now so few in number. As regards Mallahet, conceivably, when he "outed" them they had just (or recently) replaced the original Cishaurim - his visual perception might not be good enough to discover them de novo, and he would have to have relied on the originals' voices if he discovered them by voice alone.
and Caligula?[/quote:2b6woi1u]

They could very well have been among the Fanim for only a short time, but all I was saying is 1)It's been decaded since Mallahet revealed them and 2)The Skin-Spies have existed for a minimum of 200 years given one was a Scylvendi 200 years ago. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 07 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:36c3st3a
They could very well have been among the Fanim for only a short time, but all I was saying is 1)It's been decaded since Mallahet revealed them and 2)The Skin-Spies have existed for a minimum of 200 years given one was a Scylvendi 200 years ago.[/quote:36c3st3a]

@EE, I don't dispute you, anyway, you said this in the opening posts. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Brady, Candidate

The Mandate claim the Consult abruptly 'vanished' 300 years ago. I just assumned that was when the first started using the skin-spies. They 'vanished' because they began using undetectable agents.

Regarding granma - I'm pretty sure she was a skin-spy from the start. During her first appearance, Xerius thinks to himself that his mother is acting strangely. When Conphas returns, he also notes that her behavious is odd. Conphas later uncovers that Skeaos and Granma are plotting together to change the Emperor's plans for the Holy War, and we know that Skeaos is a skin-spy at that point.

At a guess, I'd say Granma got replaced sometime between Maithenet's public declaration of Holy War against the Fanim, and her first appearance in Darkness. Skeaos was probably replaced many years ago. According to the Glossary, Sarcellus was replaced in 3998 or something like that, which is over ten years before the beginning of Darkness. view post


Questions regarding Conphas posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtQuestions regarding Conphas by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Brady&quot;:4plohby9
The Mandate claim the Consult abruptly 'vanished' 300 years ago. I just assumned that was when the first started using the skin-spies. They 'vanished' because they began using undetectable agents.
[/quote:4plohby9]

I suspect this very well could be the case, or at least it was at this point that they felt they could leave the work to their skin-spies alone. view post


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