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why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Andrew, Peralogue

ok, i'm at work and i had a thought a few weeks ago and have forgotten about it till now - so i can't go and verify my thought because i'm at work where TTT ain't. So i'll post it before i forget.

Was it not said that when the cishaurim remove their eyes and see through the snakes that they are actually seeing souls? And further, that certain souls shine much brighter (ie. Kellus, moenghus)? If that is so, then since skin spies have no souls (other than the one freak), they should be detectable by any cishaurim and not just moenghus. thoughts? or is my recollection re: seeing souls, wrong? view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think your recollections are right, and I hadn't remembered that. Might be a good question to ask Scott on the Q&A board but then again it may touch on things he wants to explore and reveal in AE view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by unJon, Auditor

Good catch, I vaguely remember that. I wish I recalled who said it because that person could be wrong.

Also not sure why Kellhus and Moenghus would shine brighter because it seems to me that it is their Intellect that is strong and their Heart is weak. Ergo Moenghus sucks at the Psukhe.

Or if true, maybe that is how the Cishaurim discovered the skin-spies and attacked the Scarlet Spires back in the day, and Kellhus is wrong when he attributes it to Moenghus noticing a different timbre to their voice. M never confirmed this in the conversation.

Or maybe, skin spies do have souls. But then it would seem that Maithenet would know this from his father...

Or maybe its an inconsistency that Bakker failed to catch.

Oh so many options. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 18 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

I fear it's an inconsistency, which really irks me because it's a big one. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 18 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

An inconsistency in the same book? I dunno, I can't really see it and not one that big. I'm thinking there is an actual explanation for it such as either the person who talked about seeing souls was a)not telling the truth or b)mistaken. Perhaps it is not really souls they see. Anyway as I said at the first of this thread it would probably a good question to ask Scott himself. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 18 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I agree with EE im not seeing this as a inconsistency. But i think Scott should be asked. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 18 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

Quote: "Entropic_existence":368cdxwb
An inconsistency in the same book? I dunno, I can't really see it and not one that big. I'm thinking there is an actual explanation for it such as either the person who talked about seeing souls was a)not telling the truth or b)mistaken. Perhaps it is not really souls they see. Anyway as I said at the first of this thread it would probably a good question to ask Scott himself.[/quote:368cdxwb]

Hopefully neither of those is the case since it was Scott who said they see souls. I'll post the question and see what happens. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 18 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Just thinking since you posted in the Q & A thread but does Kelhus know that the Cishaurim can see Souls? If not it is likely that he was merely mistaken with his supposition. But then again didn't Moenghus say it was he who revealed the Skin-Spies. We know they started vanishing after he arrived in Fanim lands. Ah well hopefully we will hear from Scott soon on the subject. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 19 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by n0g0d, Candidate

Quote: "Entropic_existence":1l865cde
Just thinking since you posted in the Q & A thread but does Kelhus know that the Cishaurim can see Souls? If not it is likely that he was merely mistaken with his supposition. But then again didn't Moenghus say it was he who revealed the Skin-Spies. We know they started vanishing after he arrived in Fanim lands. Ah well hopefully we will hear from Scott soon on the subject.[/quote:1l865cde]

If I'm not mistaken, Skin-Spies are no longer on the Fanim Lands. The Consult have no eyes over there since Moenghus arrived. I think that Moenghus with his Dunayn training spotted them quite easily. If the Cishaurim know what they were looking for, it might have been easier to actually find the spies, which is probably what happened.

Moenghus remained isolated for a long time and it was probably the Cishaurim which kept the Consult spies in check. The Cishaurim will prove a very useful ally for Kellhus. Killing most of the primaries will not help him achieve an alliance though, then again we do not know much about Fanim culture. Then again religion is going to be replaced by TTT.

I don't think it is an inconsistency either. I have a hunch that it is more of a practical thing. The skin-spies could stay away from Cishaurim, and we don't know how much the Cishaurim interact with the leaders. I think the Psukhe took a bit from their social life. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 19 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

1.) All if not nearly all Cishuarim are dead and Kellhus will not form an alliance with them he has no need to and Cishuarim is apart of Fanimry Kellhus will not accept that.

2.)

Moenghus remained isolated for a long time and it was probably the Cishaurim which kept the Consult spies in check.


The Cishuarim had no idea about the skin-spies until Moenghus revealed them. When exactly are you saying Moeghus was in isolation? THe Cishuarim as a whole did not keep the spies in check they foolishly thought it was the SS hence why the assasinated the Grandmaster of SS.


3.) I have no idea what your "pratical hunch" is talking about it is very confusing and i dont see how it is relevant.

I don't think it is an inconsistency either. I have a hunch that it is more of a practical thing. The skin-spies could stay away from Cishaurim, and we don't know how much the Cishaurim interact with the leaders. I think the Psukhe took a bit from their social life.
view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 19 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by n0g0d, Candidate

What I mean is that Anasurimbur Moenghus was immersed in the Probability Trance for years. He seems to have kept himself to the labyrinths under that tree. He was also busy breaking the skin-spies.
Yet, the Consult was no longer able to infiltrate the Fanim world!
They feared Moenghus. They had no idea what would be waiting them.


Now it seems that the Cishaurim only use those snakes when necessary. It probably uses Water. They don't scope everyone and try to look at the soul all the time. Moenghus who excelled at Third Sight detected them with the inconsistencies in their voices. He simply wasn't looking. How they interact with their snakes is not very known, as in different levels of vision. Looking at how shiny one soul is, isn't something very relevant I think, so it might not be something they do all the time. But then once they know what to look for, I suppose they can use their skill and screen everyone. Moenghus being intelligent would probably have every influential person checked like Kellhus did.

Not one could infiltrate the Fanim world whilst Moenghus was in his hole...Shimeh is big. The Cishaurim must have been taking care of that how else could Moenghus keep the Consult completely clueless. They just were showed what to look for. It's simple. It's not abstract though. It is plausible. A lot is logical...one of the paths, not necessarily the shortest though. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 19 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by anor277, Didact

Quote: "n0g0d":1yz1lybm
What I mean is that Anasurimbur Moenghus was immersed in the Probability Trance for years. He seems to have kept himself to the labyrinths under that tree. He was also busy breaking the skin-spies.
Yet, the Consult was no longer able to infiltrate the Fanim world!
They feared Moenghus. They had no idea what would be waiting them.


Now it seems that the Cishaurim only use those snakes when necessary. It probably uses Water. They don't scope everyone and try to look at the soul all the time. Moenghus who excelled at Third Sight detected them with the inconsistencies in their voices. He simply wasn't looking. How they interact with their snakes is not very known, as in different levels of vision. Looking at how shiny one soul is, isn't something very relevant I think, so it might not be something they do all the time. But then once they know what to look for, I suppose they can use their skill and screen everyone. Moenghus being intelligent would probably have every influential person checked like Kellhus did.

Not one could infiltrate the Fanim world whilst Moenghus was in his hole...Shimeh is big. The Cishaurim must have been taking care of that how else could Moenghus keep the Consult completely clueless. They just were showed what to look for. It's simple. It's not abstract though. It is plausible. A lot is logical...one of the paths, not necessarily the shortest though.[/quote:1yz1lybm]

Kellhus himself speculated that Moenghus revealed the skin-spies by discrepancies in their voice; i.e. his vision as a Cishaurim was insufficient to reveal the imposture. It is likely that Moenghus also taught his adherents within the Cishaurim to suss out any skin spies - the suspicion would be enough, Esmenet and the Scarlet Spires revealed skin spies by purely mundane means. Maithanent is also another example - surely he was trained by Moenghus - and he was good also at sniffing out the skin spies. In other words while Moenghus detected the 1st skin spy in Fanim lands it is not necessary for him to have detected all of them - he could leave that to others, and the others seem to have done a good job.

I don't know what Scott said on the Q & A forum, but given all this it seems likely that the Cishaurim detected Consult infiltration solely by mundane means, and we can appreciate this on the strength of the information given in the novels. The Cishaurim with whom Kellhus communicated in TWP (in Caraskarand?) said that he and the other members of Moenghus' faction could perceive Kellhus, on what basis I don't know, his remarkable soul?, some other signature?, his similarity to Moenghus?, or (likeliest?) did Moenghus teach them to look out for his son? We simply don't know enough about the Cishaurim's ways of seeing - a way of seeing that is arguably inferior to actual sight. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 20 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Exactly Anor, there is one issue that we have asked Scott on the Q&A board, and if he answers it will either clear it up somewhat or make it murkier. Another important point to remember is the Consult isn't stupid. If all of their Skin-Spies die in Fanim lands, they aren't going to keep sending more. Their supply of Skin-Spies isn't limitless, they can't be replaced that easily. It would be like sending someone to infiltrate a high security facility using the same plans every time despite them getting caught every time it would be idiotic.

The Consult I am sure stopped sending Skin-Spies once they started dropping like flies in the Fanim lands. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 20 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by n0g0d, Candidate

I did think about Consult not sending in more spies as they are precious resources. But then I thought in more practical terms. They could infiltrate it gradually. No need to go directly to Shimeh. Probe the outskirts and see what happens. The Consult, not being stupid, will not just keep sending skin-spies to mimic the leaders within Shimeh.

The Fanim world was closed to them. To such an extent that they had no idea of what was going on and they feared Moenghus was more powerful than Kellhus. They thought Kellhus not to be their main enemy. I am sure they can deploy skin-spies carefully....

Also the Cishaurim is the enemy of the Consult. They hate Cishaurim. Possibly because Moenghus is Cishaurim, but it seems they know that Moenghus is just a manipulator or maybe not at that time. Cishaurim may have been used against the Consult, though they were not even aware of the Consult's existence.

Umm how exactly is Seswatha a shaman? A shaman is a Prophet who practices sorcery Seswatha was just the Grandmaster of the Sohonc not a prophet at all.


By being a sorcerer and making a prophecy. I didn't mean Celmomas. Fair enough, one prophecy does not make a prophet, but it was a huge one! EE did say the definition of Shaman started afterwards though. That was good!

I don't see any evidence that there is an inconsistency so far. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 20 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Mahajanga Mordecai, Auditor

What prophecy did Seswatha make? It's called the CELMOMIAN prophecy, not the Seswathan Prophecy. Seswatha never prophecied anything!

Also the definition of Shaman predates Seswatha. It was used to describe apostates in Eanna who discovered and practiced sorcery. view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 20 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by n0g0d, Candidate

Quote: "Mahajanga Mordecai":7ghsgv6a
What prophecy did Seswatha make? It's called the CELMOMIAN prophecy, not the Seswathan Prophecy. Seswatha never prophecied anything!

Also the definition of Shaman predates Seswatha. It was used to describe apostates in Eanna who discovered and practiced sorcery.[/quote:7ghsgv6a]

Yes! I got that wrong completely.I thought Seswatha did it. Sorry all! view post


why can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? posted 20 April 2006 in The Thousandfold Thoughtwhy can't all cishaurim see the skins spies? by Entropic_existence, Moderator

And as he said, what I said is the Shamanism predated Seswatha. The Chronicles of the Tusk take place long before the Apocalypse. That is the only time we hear of Shamans, no one seems to have gained that title after the Tribes of Eanna came into Earwa. view post


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