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Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

OK, this is me going out on a limb. More of a prediction than a theory given the little evidence we have.

We know that a creature needs a soul to work sorcery. We know that at least one skin-spy can work sorcery. So either that skin-spy was an aberration and the only one to have a soul...or do all skin-spies have souls?

Well why not? All humans have souls and only a Few of them can be sorcerors. So, perhaps, all skin-spies have souls and only a few of them can work sorcery. Since there are few skin-spies to begin with (compared to humans), then perhaps there are only a handful that are among the Few.

We have some other evidence. We have seen some skin-spies that recognize Akka as Chigra. I would argue, given the quote from Aurang to Inrau in TDTCB, that seeing Chigra is something similar to seeing the Mark. So only someone that is one of the Few would recoginize Chigra in a Mandate Schoolman. More concisely, if you recognize Chigra then you have a soul. So we have seen at least three skin spies that have souls. 2 that saw Chigra and 1 that was a sorcorer.

My conclusion is that all skin-spies have souls and that at least these 3 were among the Few.

There are good reasons that Consult does not make the skin-spies that are among the Few into Sorcorers. They do not want them to be Marked. The purpose of the skin-spies is to infiltrate various enemy camps. So the Consult would only want to Mark those that infiltrate one of the Schools. There is no other reason to teach Gnosis to one of the skin-spies. Which explains why we see skin-spies that see Chigra but are not Marked.

Now once the 2nd Apocalypse starts and there is a real war happening, then you can teach the Few among the skin-spies the Gnosis. But until then you would only want to teach those that infiltrate the schools.

As an aside, I was wondering if the proportion of Few among skin-spies was higher than the proportion of Few among humans. What made me think it was different is that it seems that the proportion of the Few among the Dunyain is higher than the Few among humans. We have seen 2 Dunyain tested for sorcery (Moenghus and Kellhus) and they are both among the Few. Is that because 1) they are of the Kunerian line of kings, 2) Dunyain, or 3) just random chance.

We have no reason to think that the old High Kings were of the few and random chance is unlikely (though possible). So my thought is that something about the Dunyain breeding for intellect makes them all, or a higher proportion of them, be among the Few. If this is true then it should be interesting in AE if the rest of the Dunyain come into play.

But back on topic. If the Skin-spies have souls and are in some respects bred of increased intelligence then perhaps more of them are among the Few.

I realize that all of this is pretty out there speculation. But let me know what you all think. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well I disagree with the theory of Skin-Spies having souls simply because they are repeatedly described as Soulless. From TTT page 230 (trade Paperback):

"The creatuere will be transfered." she was saying. "These things have no souls for your Cants to compell... Other means are required."


This is just but one example, I think Achamian at another point made the same assertion, and it was made several other time as well. But if the Cants of Compulsion will not compel them, it means they are soulless creatures. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Yeah, Cnaiür had me pretty convinced of their soullessness with his internal monologue. He kept talking about how they didn't have any personalities of their own aside from their mimicry, but he didn't care, because he was insane. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

Good points all. Let me keep trying to play devil's advocate.

Cants of compulsion also won't work to get a Mandate Schoolman to give up the Gnosis, so perhaps there is a different reason that they do not work on the skin-spies.

Cnaiur is guessing that they do not have souls, but he doesn't really know. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

I think though that Kellhus (who figured out why Achamian couldn't give up the Gnosis), Achamian (a Gnostic Sorceror), Cnaiur (who has the insight of a madman), Maithenet (Half-Dunyain although his knowledge likely came from Moenghus) and the Scarlet Spires who all came to the conclusion that they are Soulless independently (or relatively independently) is sufficient evidence. Occam's Razor seems to apply to this for me, we all have various sources coming to the same conclusion for different reasons and different means.

Is it possible that the Skin-Spies can not be Compulsed because of anothe reason other than Soullessness? Of course. But I think it is highly improbable. There likely would be an observable difference in not being able to use the Cants of Compulsion on a subhect due to it not having a Soul and the Cants not working because the Cants are being "blocked" by either sorcerous or non-sorcerous means.

As No-God pointed out above Cnaiur's observation of their lack of individuality is probably the most telling clue. If your entire personality is based on mimicry, rather than any actual innate individuality, it is a good clue as to the lack of a Soul. This seems to be a theme through the Books as to the nature of a Soul. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

unJon said

Cants of compulsion also won't work to get a Mandate Schoolman to give up the Gnosis, so perhaps there is a different reason that they do not work on the skin-spies.


Im not positive but Cants of Compulsion dont work on Mandate Schoolman because of Seswatha's influence upon them, the Seswatha inside of all Mandate Schoolmen cannot be compelled because he no longer has a soul to compel. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Inner_visions, Candidate

I agree with the skin-spies being souless. It is mentioned many times by different sources. What i'm concerned about is the fact that when Maithenet mentions the skin-spy it is as if it were the ONLY one with a soul... Maybe every skin spy with a soul will be able to perform sorcery; also since the consult can create them ¿'infinitely'? they could maybe make an army of sorcerors. Although, it's also equally possible that he wasn't the first one with a soul, but one of many and since the consult has no use for someone who doesn't serve a purpose they just go rid of thoses who can't perform sorccery?

The whole Mandate thing was, I believe, expalined by Drusas himself. I believe he talks about them having, in effect, 2 souls: their own and Seswatha's. So, when they are compulsed, their own soul is being controlled but then Seswatha's will just temporarily control their body. I will look for a direct quote, and if I'm wrong just go ahead and tell me. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Kingmanor, Candidate

I think the question we need to ask is HOW did the mandate skin-spy get the soul. Its my understanding that humans get their souls naturally somwhere between conception and birth. So where did the manufactured skin-spy get his? was it taken from another?

And yes he may have been the only soulled skin-spy, but Aspect-Emperor will be 20 yrs later, and the Consult could create a bunch more by then. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Cynical Cat, Auditor

Having a soul seems linked to having the capacity to become self aware and thus possess the ability to make individual choice and free will. The skin spies, for all their intelligence, are ruled by their impulses and instincts, obediant to the orders of their masters. A skin spy with a soul would possess the ability to fight his instincts and disobey his masters. It was probably a freak mutation that resulted in the capacity for self awarensess and a soul. It would also explain why the Consult wouldn't want to make many of them, even if it could control the process. The skin spies that possess souls, of which only a minority are likely to be of the Few, also possess the ability to rebel. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Kingmanor&quot;:8hx9pon0
I think the question we need to ask is HOW did the mandate skin-spy get the soul. Its my understanding that humans get their souls naturally somwhere between conception and birth. So where did the manufactured skin-spy get his? was it taken from another?

And yes he may have been the only soulled skin-spy, but Aspect-Emperor will be 20 yrs later, and the Consult could create a bunch more by then.[/quote:8hx9pon0]

For the how I'm going to go with Maithanet's own words/interpretation for now. It was an abberation and an accident, one which the Consult has never been able to reproduce.

I think the quote Scott has made on the Q&amp;A board before "It is the rare animal that gains a soul in Earwa" is a great clue. Humans naturally have souls, as do Non-men, but somehow...through pure random chance or a variety of factors, inhereintly soulless creatures can develop/gain a soul. As to specific how's and why's? I have no idea <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

I can't find the spot, but I believe that there is a point in TTT where Aurang laments that the Consult no longer knows how to make more skin-spies.


Further devil advocate for skin-spies/souls: maybe the skin-spies don't have souls, maybe it is possible for a skin-spy to mimic a soul. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;unJon&quot;:24gdr0qh
I can't find the spot, but I believe that there is a point in TTT where Aurang laments that the Consult no longer knows how to make more skin-spies.

Further devil advocate for skin-spies/souls: maybe the skin-spies don't have souls, maybe it is possible for a skin-spy to mimic a soul.[/quote:24gdr0qh]

I think I remember Aurang lamenting that as well, as for the mimicing souls.... I think that would be a bit of a stretch. We've seen that the Skin-spies have no distinct personality of their own, meaning they are lacking in identity. As for the one example who did have a soul, it worked Sorcery so therefore it definitly had a Soul, no amount of mimicry would allow that.

If by mimicing you mean by mimicying another's identitiy well, they do definitly do that and to the uniitiated there would be little difference. Metaphysically though, huge difference. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

I posted this opinion in the &quot;soul poll&quot; as well: I think that this particular skin spy had just been a shell for the soul of an Inchoroi. My reason for this theory is that both the synthese and the skin spies are reffered to as &quot;artifacts&quot; of the Inchoroi. If the soul of an Inchoroi can be bound to a synthese body, why not a skin spy body as well? The consult needed someone with a soul to perform sorcery and also, one can't help but imagine that the experience of an Inchoroi over that of a soulless skin spy could only help while in the presence of the Mandate. What confuses me is when Nautzera realizes that he had always known, or always suspected or somthing along those lines....did anyone catch that? view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Edge of Certainty&quot;:1806b3cl
I posted this opinion in the &quot;soul poll&quot; as well: I think that this particular skin spy had just been a shell for the soul of an Inchoroi. My reason for this theory is that both the synthese and the skin spies are reffered to as &quot;artifacts&quot; of the Inchoroi. If the soul of an Inchoroi can be bound to a synthese body, why not a skin spy body as well? The consult needed someone with a soul to perform sorcery and also, one can't help but imagine that the experience of an Inchoroi over that of a soulless skin spy could only help while in the presence of the Mandate. What confuses me is when Nautzera realizes that he had always known, or always suspected or somthing along those lines....did anyone catch that?[/quote:1806b3cl]

I replied to this in your other message in the poll section. While it may be possible for an Inchoroi to bind its soul to a Skin-Spy I don't think it would, that and we can reason out for a fact that Simas was neither Aurang nor Aurax, the only two Inchoroi left alive. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:axfs28r3
Quote: &quot;Edge of Certainty&quot;:axfs28r3
I posted this opinion in the &quot;soul poll&quot; as well: I think that this particular skin spy had just been a shell for the soul of an Inchoroi. My reason for this theory is that both the synthese and the skin spies are reffered to as &quot;artifacts&quot; of the Inchoroi. If the soul of an Inchoroi can be bound to a synthese body, why not a skin spy body as well? The consult needed someone with a soul to perform sorcery and also, one can't help but imagine that the experience of an Inchoroi over that of a soulless skin spy could only help while in the presence of the Mandate. What confuses me is when Nautzera realizes that he had always known, or always suspected or somthing along those lines....did anyone catch that?[/quote:axfs28r3]

I replied to this in your other message in the poll section. While it may be possible for an Inchoroi to bind its soul to a Skin-Spy I don't think it would, that and we can reason out for a fact that Simas was neither Aurang nor Aurax, the only two Inchoroi left alive.[/quote:axfs28r3]

I agree with you. Aurang bound his soul to Esmenet (he possessed her), he should be able to do the same to a soulless vessel, a skin spy. Should he do so, it would be bloody dangerous - it would leave him too exposed and vulnerable. As to the other bodily form Aurang took, i.e. when he first seduced Esmenet in TDTCB, I am at a loss - does he conjure the body up or does it follow him everywhere in a box? Of course I don't know what a soul is - this might be a more interesting question. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 13 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think they construct them. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 14 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

damn, thought i had somthin view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 14 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

Damn, I thougt I had somthin

Quote: &quot;Warrior-Poet&quot;:3q3m0jel
I think they construct them.[/quote:3q3m0jel]

I wonder if their abilities in the tenke go so far...?? I mean, to construct somthing of the flesh is one thing, but to construct a soul. And even if that were possible, the Consult has forgotten a large part of the Tenke...again, the question of what a soul exactly is comes up. Maybe I'm making it somthing more than it is....hmmm, should i post this question in the TTT section or in the philosophy corner? view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 14 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Entropic_existence, Moderator

The Skin-Spies are constructs of the Tekne, which are inherently soulless entities as are all of the other Constructs the Inchoroi/Consult have created (Sranc, Bashrag, Wracu). However the whole notion of souls in Earwa, from what Scott has revealed, isn't black and white. A good quote to remember is &quot;it is the rare animal that Awakens on Earwa.&quot; Under certain conditions and for unknown reasons a non-souled creature can awaken to self-identity and a soul. The Inchoroi have never been able to create an inherently souled creature, the Skin-Spy with a soul was a fluke.

As for the body that Aurang inhabited when it went after Kelhus by possesing Esmenet I have a feeling that that was actually a Skin-Spy. There were Skin-Spies in the city afterall. But yes unSimas was definitly not being possesed or inhabited. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 14 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

I agree with most of what EE says except the possessing the skin spy. I always thought that the guy that keeps seducing Esmi is just an illusion and the Synthese is really all there is casting some Cant and ejaculating the black semen. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

uJ said

I agree with most of what EE says except the possessing the skin spy. I always thought that the guy that keeps seducing Esmi is just an illusion and the Synthese is really all there is casting some Cant and ejaculating the black semen.


What are you formulating this idea off of just out of curiousity? You almost made me go WTF but then again I make myself do that alot anyway. I always saw th man as a construct that the synthese inhabited. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

I'm basing it on the black semen. The &quot;man&quot; that seduces Esmi ejaculates black. So does Aurax at the end of TWP. Esmi sleeps with a skin-spy Sacellus and doesn't mention black semen and I think she would notice.

So my conclusion is that the &quot;man&quot; is really an illusion and its the little bird Synthese spitting black semen on her. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

The reason Sarcellus didn't have black semen is because he is a skin-spy and Aurang is not. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

I agree. If Aurang &quot;possessed&quot; a skin spy and had sex with Esmi, then the semen would not be black. Possession does not change the semen color. Which is why in TDTCB, and later in TWP when Esmi has sex with a dude that spits black semen, I think it is Aurang as a Synthese, screwing her and the guy that Esmi sees is an illusion.

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying, WP? I'm not sure how to make my point more clear. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

...well from what we know, we're not quite sure what kind of body Aurang possesed when he took advantage of Esmi...do we? Is there somthing I'm forgetting? cuz the Inchoroi can basically engineer flesh, since we've decided that the Tenke is more science rather than sorcery. If they can make sranc, bashrag, ect. why not otherthings. maybe the body that had sex with Esmenet was Aurang's own personalized creation, maybe it was his own body...besides, didn't TTT describe him as having dark wings, or somthing like that, when he seduced Esmenet the second time so that he coul posses her? I'm recalling this from memory, tho, so it could be complete hogwash. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Edge of Certainty&quot;:1bd61xyk
...well from what we know, we're not quite sure what kind of body Aurang possesed when he took advantage of Esmi...do we? Is there somthing I'm forgetting? cuz the Inchoroi can basically engineer flesh, since we've decided that the Tenke is more science rather than sorcery. If they can make sranc, bashrag, ect. why not otherthings. maybe the body that had sex with Esmenet was Aurang's own personalized creation, maybe it was his own body...besides, didn't TTT describe him as having dark wings, or somthing like that, when he seduced Esmenet the second time so that he coul posses her? I'm recalling this from memory, tho, so it could be complete hogwash.[/quote:1bd61xyk]

Exactly it was not an illusion is a shell that the synthese inhabited. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by unJon, Auditor

Alright, I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing now so I'll try to spell out the two theories.

Event: In TDTCB and WP, Esmi has sex with a &quot;man&quot; that turns out to be something else and ejaculates black semen.

Theory 1 (mine): the &quot;man&quot; is actually an illusion. Aurang uses a glamour to make Esmi see a man, but it is actually the Synthese itself (black bird with a little human head) that is present in the room with Esmi and ejaculates black semen.

Theory 2 (others): the &quot;man&quot; is actually some creation of the Tekne (maybe a skin spy, maybe some creation we haven't seen before), that Aurang possesses to have sex with Esmi.

Do I have the theories correct?

If so let me just restate what I see as the problems with 2. Basically, if it's a skin-spy it shouldn't be black semen. The only creature that we have seen ejaculate black is Aurax at the end of TWPb. If its some other creation of the Tekne, what is it? Certainly nothing we have heard of before. The Tekne creature that could pass for a man is a skin-spy. Are you saying that you think that there are other &quot;man&quot; creatures out there in addition to the skin-spies? view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Edge of Certainty, Subdidact

I'm such a retard <!-- s:roll: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_rolleyes.gif" alt=":roll:" title="Rolling Eyes" /><!-- s:roll: --> ...I didn't realize theory one existed...shoulda read the whole thread. refresh my memory...it's been a while, what is a &quot;glamour?&quot; Sounds kinda familiar...somthing to with Golgotterath?? I must have missed the fact that Inchoroi had that kinda power..I really need to read the books again... view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;unJon&quot;:77fcocrv
Alright, I just want to make sure that we are talking about the same thing now so I'll try to spell out the two theories.

Event: In TDTCB and WP, Esmi has sex with a &quot;man&quot; that turns out to be something else and ejaculates black semen.

Theory 1 (mine): the &quot;man&quot; is actually an illusion. Aurang uses a glamour to make Esmi see a man, but it is actually the Synthese itself (black bird with a little human head) that is present in the room with Esmi and ejaculates black semen.

Theory 2 (others): the &quot;man&quot; is actually some creation of the Tekne (maybe a skin spy, maybe some creation we haven't seen before), that Aurang possesses to have sex with Esmi.

Do I have the theories correct?

If so let me just restate what I see as the problems with 2. Basically, if it's a skin-spy it shouldn't be black semen. The only creature that we have seen ejaculate black is Aurax at the end of TWPb. If its some other creation of the Tekne, what is it? Certainly nothing we have heard of before. The Tekne creature that could pass for a man is a skin-spy. Are you saying that you think that there are other &quot;man&quot; creatures out there in addition to the skin-spies?[/quote:77fcocrv]

I think you've summarized the options correctly (you are making me sick to think of it at least). The suggestion I think was that the synthese totes around a golem type thing, which he inhabits when he wants to give someone a good seeing-to. Perhaps we are over-analyzing this. view post


Skin-Spies have Souls posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtSkin-Spies have Souls by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think you've summarized the options correctly (you are making me sick to think of it at least). The suggestion I think was that the synthese totes around a golem type thing, which he inhabits when he wants to give someone a good seeing-to. Perhaps we are over-analyzing this.


Yes theory two is correct its just a shell that the synthese inhabits when he wants to look human. view post


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