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The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Kingmanor, Candidate

Do you suppose the skin-spy that infiltrated the Mandate had Seswatha's dreams as well? I wonder how that would have affected him and/or the Consult. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Andrew, Peralogue

The modus operandi of the skin spies has always been to replace an existing individual and not to present as a new person. So i think that this skin spy would have operated the same. to answer the question then, assuming that the spy came as a replacement and not a brand new mandate initiate, he would never have had to undergo the ritual with seswatha's heart and as such would not share in the dreams. The fellow that he replaced would have undergone the ritual long ago (and it is only done once as i understand it). view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

I agree, the skin-spy likely learned the Gnosis from the Inchoroi. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Kingmanor, Candidate

So one of the two remaining Inchoroi taught the skin-sky the Gnosis? Not sure about that. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

Uhhh...I don't see why you doubt it. The skin-spies that we have seen seem to be in fairly regular contact with the Synthese. And the skin spies seem to live for a very long time since the Inchoroi cannot make them anymore, so I would say that the skin-spy probably came from Golgoterwhatever where he was chilling with the Inchoroi bros. Who the hell else would have taught him the Gnosis? I suppose one of the non-men erratics might have.

Who the heck else taught it Gnosis. We've already seen that the Mandate are incapable of betraying it even under torture to the death. And since the skin-spies only invaded the 3Cs about a dozen years ago, Simon was already a powerful Mandate sorcorer who knew the Gnosis. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "unJon":1op71js1
Uhhh...I don't see why you doubt it. The skin-spies that we have seen seem to be in fairly regular contact with the Synthese. And the skin spies seem to live for a very long time since the Inchoroi cannot make them anymore, so I would say that the skin-spy probably came from Golgoterwhatever where he was chilling with the Inchoroi bros. Who the hell else would have taught him the Gnosis? I suppose one of the non-men erratics might have.

Who the heck else taught it Gnosis. We've already seen that the Mandate are incapable of betraying it even under torture to the death. And since the skin-spies only invaded the 3Cs about a dozen years ago, Simon was already a powerful Mandate sorcorer who knew the Gnosis.[/quote:1op71js1]

The Synthese are vessels, creations of the Tekne that the Inchoroi (and perhaps Consult Sorcerors) can use to temporarily house their consciousness. Aurang was inhabiting the Synthese human headed crow during his time in the Three Seas. While inhabiting a Synthese though your Sorcery becomes quite limited.

Remember too that the Consult was formed from a Gnostic School in the Ancient north, any human Sorcerors who are members (whether they are survivors from the Second Apocalypse with their lifespans unnaturally extended or perhaps new adherents) as well as the Non-men Erratics who also belong to the Consult all possess the Gnosis. It would not be necessary for Aurang or Aurax themselves to teach the one Skin Spy who had a soul the Gnosis, any Consult Sorceror could have done so. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Inner_visions, Candidate

That answer raises more questions than it answers: How could he not have the dreams when they were such a crucial part of life as a Mandate? In the books it's mentioned that every Mandate has the same dream as every other Mandate each night(althought night to night differs). It would have come up in conversation at some point during his life as a Mandate. Also how does having a soul affect his thought process? Is he 100% undercontroll of the COnsult or did he run away from them and join the Mandate?<---LOL

"And since the skin-spies only invaded the 3Cs about a dozen years ago, Simon was already a powerful Mandate sorcorer who knew the Gnosis."
You seem to know what you're talking about, but where does it say this? Just curious because it means I don't remember very specifically the books and I should probably re-read the book.
Maybe it's just me and it's a lot simpler then i'm making it out to be. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

That's true Harren. In Kelhuss convo with Moenghus he discusses that the skin-spies started to infiltrate the 3Cs a dozen years ago, which is when Moenghus would have first discovered him. Possibly Kelhuss was only talking about Fanim regions so they might have invaded the Mandate before then. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

Just to weigh in on the subject of the Mandate skin spy (whose presence in my opinion is an anomaly as a plot device), un-Simas could easily have learned the Gnosis from not only the Inchoroi brothers but also Merkeritrig or the undead Shauriatis - all of whom we assume are leading members of the Consult and there might be other members we don't know about. It would take little deception for a skin spy to participate in the Mandate dreams using modified cants of calling. And given the skin spies possible instructors (e.g. Shauriatis) I don't think this is unreasonable.

Of course, given what we read in the first two books, a skin spy should not be able to pose as a sorceror anyway; even in the novel this skin spy is represented as a rarity among rarities, and his inclusion was very disappopinting. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Something im curious about is would Simas using the Gnosis be bound like all other Mandate Schoolman who cannot reveal the Gnosis because of Seswatha, or in otherwords could Simas have betrayed the Gnosis. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

unSimas, we speculate, was not bound by Seswatha so could teach the Gnosis to someone, but it doesn't really matter. The Consult already knows the Gnosis. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "anor277":2igh5fzx

Of course, given what we read in the first two books, a skin spy should not be able to pose as a sorceror anyway; even in the novel this skin spy is represented as a rarity among rarities, and his inclusion was very disappopinting.[/quote:2igh5fzx]

It was specifically mentioned as an aberation, and an aberation we would be glad the Consult never seemed to be able to duplicate. Personally I think it adds that much more depth to the metaphysics of the world, and shows that as always, the world of TPON is not cut and dry. Like the real world, there are always exceptions to the rule and more shades of grey than all of the colours of the rainbow. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Entropic_existence":18jnobdk
Quote: "anor277":18jnobdk

Of course, given what we read in the first two books, a skin spy should not be able to pose as a sorceror anyway; even in the novel this skin spy is represented as a rarity among rarities, and his inclusion was very disappopinting.[/quote:18jnobdk]

It was specifically mentioned as an aberation, and an aberation we would be glad the Consult never seemed to be able to duplicate. Personally I think it adds that much more depth to the metaphysics of the world, and shows that as always, the world of TPON is not cut and dry. Like the real world, there are always exceptions to the rule and more shades of grey than all of the colours of the rainbow.[/quote:18jnobdk]

I replied first in the other thread to which you just replied. If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles? view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

Quote: "anor277":3h9fupgh
If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles?[/quote:3h9fupgh]

Huh? The Consult can't duplicate Simas because they can't even duplicate a regular skin-spy. The Consult no longer knows how to make them.

The rest of what you write, I don't understand at all. What is turn off the principles? We know that Akka and Kellhus are not skin-spies because they have/will have POVs. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

Quote: "unJon":3o38s7yo
Quote: "anor277":3o38s7yo
If you accept the aberration, how do we know that the Consult can never duplicate another Simas? How do we know in the next series of novels that Kellhus/Achamian/Nautzera etc. are not aberrant skin spies that turned off the principles?[/quote:3o38s7yo]

Huh? The Consult can't duplicate Simas because they can't even duplicate a regular skin-spy. The Consult no longer knows how to make them.

The rest of what you write, I don't understand at all. What is turn off the principles? We know that Akka and Kellhus are not skin-spies because they have/will have POVs.[/quote:3o38s7yo]

Unjon, I replied again in the other thread. "Turned off the principles" means a skin spy killed and replaced Kellhus, Nautzera etc. They might not have POVs in the next novels. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Kingmanor, Candidate

What? With everything we have seen in this trilogy what makes you possibly think a skin-spy COULD kill Kellhus? With all his power he will somehow be replaced by a tekne'd creation? Gimme a break. The is zero evidence supporting that possibility.

And considering the Prince of Nothing was about, well, the prince of nothing, what makes you think the Aspect Emperor will NOT have the POV of the aspect-emperor?

Main characters dying is one thing. Main characters replaced by subhuman creations that the entire three-seas knows about and NO ONE NOTICING is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot believe you even consider it. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 22 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

Quote: "Kingmanor":3ml40t36
What? With everything we have seen in this trilogy what makes you possibly think a skin-spy COULD kill Kellhus? With all his power he will somehow be replaced by a tekne'd creation? Gimme a break. The is zero evidence supporting that possibility.[/quote:3ml40t36]

And yet given enough skin spies, the Consult would have turned off Kellhus at Caraskarand. Their ambush might have worked at Shimeh too - certainly Kellhus anticipated the possibility, which was was why he developed translocation to evade the trap Aurang had set.

Quote: "Kingmanor":3ml40t36
And considering the Prince of Nothing was about, well, the prince of nothing, what makes you think the Aspect Emperor will NOT have the POV of the aspect-emperor?[/quote:3ml40t36]

How the fock should you or I know; the books have not been written.

Quote: "Kingmanor":3ml40t36
Main characters dying is one thing. Main characters replaced by subhuman creations that the entire three-seas knows about and NO ONE NOTICING is absolutely ridiculous. I cannot believe you even consider it.[/quote:3ml40t36]

It seems we agree then. I certainly think it is absurd that a reader must remember that main characters could be killed and replaced by a demon (and only a Dunyain-trained can perceive them). And yet given skin spies with souls, or at least their possibility, this is precisely the situation that pertains. And I am pointing out the absurdity of this situation. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Kellhus probably developed translocation for more than just that reason, notice how he used it against the Cishaurim. Personally I think Kellhus was more worried about Cnaiur than the Skin-Spies during that meeting.

I don't know if it would be completely absurd for a "main" character to be replaced with a Skin-Spy...again I think it would be another aspect of realism. No one is ever 100% safe, and people make mistakes. Those mistakes could lead to a relatively "big" character being killed and replaced.

I definitly do not think the idea of it being possible is absurd at all. Also, the way it has be written into the saga's from what we know it would be a very slim possibility. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

@EE, I can remember years ago reading Larry Niven, on the writing of detective novels in science fiction. In a sci-fi world an apparently motiveless murder with no suspects could be explained by a time traveller coming back in time and killing the father of his (the time traveller's) worst enemy. Leaving the paradox aside, Larry Niven who did write several good sci fi detective stories assured his readers that he would not introduce time travel - because the consequences would defy logic.

Now in the current fantasy novels, motive and aims and reasons are all areas of reasonable speculation and anticipation, given the logic and internal consistency of the fantasy world. For instance, if we'd been a little smarter, we may have realised why the Consult was at the war with the Cishaurim and why the Cishaurim attacked the Scarlet Spires at the end of the Warrior Prophet. It is my opinion that the sorcerous skin spy defies the internal logic of the novels, and the author has set these conditions - perhaps this is analagous to introducing the time traveller as before. Now according to Maithanet, Simas was a one-off, never to be repeated entity. This is a good thing because it gives us confidence in making further predictions in the next series of novels (but only if Maithanet is right of course). But I think the novels would have been much more internally consistent if the skin spies had no such ability and had infilitrated the Mandate by "mundane" means.

If you disagree we must agree to differ. And since this "argument" is crossing a few threads we should restrict it to this one.

edited for another point view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Then we shall agree to differ <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Like I said I can see a point for not liking it, but not for saying it defies internal logic of the novels as laid down by the author. It goes against a POV, which is entirely different. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

I guess I just don't see why it renders our powers of prediction as readers to be meaningless. It's just another variable, e.g. there is a chance that that sorceror is a skin-spy and not a real sorceror. I don't see what the big deal is because that was always true for non-sorcerors anyway. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

I think it is a very big variable to consider, possibly far beyond the range of normal fantasy. Alright, you win, but don't blame me if in 20 years time Esmenet wakes up next to a spider face. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

I think it is a very big variable to consider, possibly far beyond the range of normal fantasy. Alright, you win, but don't blame me if in 20 years time Esmenet wakes up next to a spider face. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by White Lord, Subdidact

We already had a similar discussion [url=http&#58;//forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?t=657&amp;postdays=0&amp;postorder=asc&amp;start=0:3j3liij6](link)[/url:3j3liij6] more than half a year before TTT came out. I think it still holds real well, despite all recent additions in what we know. An interesting read in retrospect. (BTW anor277 was inflexible even then, and even then I didn't really see what was so wrong or impossible with this whole idea of sorcerous skin-spies). view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by anor277, Didact

@WL, ah, but I've always been inflexible. I think you know why I think sorcerous skin spies are unreasonable (desperate to have the last word!). view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by unJon, Auditor

Maithenet has a technique that anyone can perform to test for a skin-spy. I wouldn't be surprised if in 20 years it is common practice to greet someone by pinching their face in that particular location as opposed to shaking hands or grabbing forearms. view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Ikiru, Candidate

Doesn't it also seem like Scott included the skin-spy with a soul for a REASON? Everything that's included has a purpose in these books. I think he was trying to give us some clue about the nature of souls, and sorcery. What it is, though, I can't say. Maybe that souls can be DEVELOPED by intelligent life? view post


The Mandate Skin-Spy posted 01 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Mandate Skin-Spy by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yes, we know Souls can be developed from a quote he has said here on the board that has been passed around as well. "It is the rare animal that awakens on Earwa" The awakening refering to the gaining of a Soul.

From the answer he gave me on the Q&amp;A board the slave-races of the Inchoroi are inherently un-souled creations, but of course exceptions do occur. view post


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