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The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Classic, Commoner

I just want to see what everyone thinks the No-God is based on what little is given about it. Bare with me, I'm going to stumble through this


To me, the No-God is the absence of God, a complete void. The Glossary describes the World as, "the plane where the desires of individual souls are hapless before circumstance", circumstance fixed by the desire of the God of Gods.

The further one goes into the Outside, the more they are subject to Desire instead of Circumstance. In this case, the desire of the Gods, who's sheer will power allow them to form their own realms. Piety and devotion become important so that an individual may be allowed entrance into one of these realms.

Thats why sorcery doesnt work on the No-God, why the Tears of God only embed themselves into his carapace. His will is so powerful as to rival that of the Gods, and if he wins out the Outside turns to Void, the No-God's desire.

That's why the Inchoroi use him, if the No-God wins there will be no damnation.

I've been viewing the No-God as a God despite the name, maybe veiwing it as a whirling void changes things. Maybe the No-God could control Khellus by becoming his Darkness that comes Before, by moving his soul.

This may be how Khellus intends to rewrite scripture, by having a will so powerful he determines the result after a soul passes from the World and into the Outside. Maybe Khellus becomes a God. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

So you don't believe the chorae in the Carapace are there by design? view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Kingmanor, Candidate

I do not think the No-God is any kind of a God. I think he a completely artifical creation. No soul, no connection to the outside. He was built on the Inchoroi homeworld and somehow "summoned" to Earwa for the first apocalypse. The books never talk about the No-God's body, or where his Carapace is kept hidden by the Consult, because its not. Its not there. The Heron Spear sent it back where it came from.

I could be completely wrong too. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Mithfânion, Didact

I've had trouble imagining Mog Pharau from the start. How should I imagine a "carapace"? What is that, some sort of coffin?

And that coffins contains Chorea right? And it stands vertically within the whirlwind?

Is there an incarnate body of some kind? I thought there would be since he is described as a "he" instead of an "it" but maybe that's not relevant. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Well, we know the No-God was created, at least that is what we have been led to suspect. He is obviously sentient but we have heard him described as the Inchoroi's greates weapon. One important semantic distinction I would like to point out is that the No-God was never described as being Summoned... he was described as being Resurected. To me this is a very, very important difference and gives clues as to the nature of the No-God himself.

One thing that that I noticed is during Seswatha's dreams, and during Kellhus' revelation upon the circumfix, is to me, the No-God's speech seems almost.... child-like. Aware of itself but unknowing of what it truly is. The repated "Look at me" "What do you see?" etc struck me as being fundamentally.... unknowing of it's nature and aspect, etc. Obviously he is intelligent, and summoned Bashrag, Wracu, and Sranc from outside of the continent of Earwa intentionally. But yea...not sure exactly where I was going just that I saw some sort of self-naivete if you will within the No-God. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by H, Auditor

I think the No-God is the most interesting part of the books, for me at least. I went from liking the story to loving it when the No-God made his first appearance.

I'd said before, and still maintain it now, that the No-God is not inherently evil. He was created, and unleashed upon a world that could not possibly sustain him. By his every existance, he cause great harm, but that doesn't make it purposeful (on his part). There's no evidence that i could find that says the No-God actually summoned Sranc (et, al), so much as they could feel his presence and were drawn to it. The Consult certainly knew this, and is probably why they wheeled him out at Mengedda, to draw all the constructs they could to there (Sranc, Wracu, Bashrags, etc.). It was a desperate gambit, because it made the Carapace vulnerable to attack. I don't see the No-God as the 'ultimate weapon', more like a last resort. The No-God was the seal from the Outside, the ultimate goal, why allow it to be assailed, unless it was desperate? (Which, as Akka explains, it seems the battle was. The Wracu were turned back, and Scranc were held at bay. What else was there to throw but the No-God?)

As for his Resurection, it would seem that the cheif soul(s) of the No-God exists in the Outside independant of the Carapace (at least, if the voice Kellhus hears is the No-God). Perhaps he is an old, dead, God?

If each soul is a pin-prick though to the Outside, the No-God is a gapping maw to the Outside. The Carapace is a coffin in the sense of containing that breech. The Whirlwind is everything being drawn into the vacuum of the Outside. He is endlessly hungry, because it constantly needs to keep the beech open, devouring souls being the only way to do so.

Of cource, i'm most probably completely wrong on all this, but that's how i see it so far... view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Kingmanor, Candidate

Everything we say here is speculation. I dont think there is near enough information in the Prince of Nothing to correctly ascertain what the No-God truly is.

When we finally learn the secrets of the No-God it will be funny to go back and look at this thread and see how close or how wrong we were.

And it certainly is strange the the most powerful being in Earwa says "WHAT AM I?" view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

As a correction to my earlier post, I stand corrected. After re-reading several passages in TTT and the glossary I see that the No-God was described as being summoned, he will be Resurected for the Second Apocalypse.

[quote author="H"]There's no evidence that i could find that says the No-God actually summoned Sranc (et, al), so much as they could feel his presence and were drawn to it.

In the Glossary description of the Apocalypse it is said that when the No-God was summoned, and first drew breath, the Bashrag, Wracu, and Sranc harkened to his call. Sranc at least, and likely Bashrag and Wracu had been present since the begiining of the Apcalypse, prior to the summoning of the No-God (the beginnings of the Apocalypse are called the Great Sranc Wars and the hordes are mentioned in the battles prior to the summoning) but when the No-God arrived, hordes of Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu came, hearkening to his call, from all over the world. He is able to directly control these creations of the Inchoroi as extensions of his own will so I personally find it likely he actively called them, rather than they simply being attracted. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Shryke, Candidate

I find it interesting that the No-God seems to exert some sort of control, and talks through, only those creatures WITHOUT souls. This, to me, seems to be our biggest clue as to the essence of what it is.

If men and nonmen souls are like bits of god peaking through the cracks of the world from the outside, maybe the no-god is somehow analegous to the outside but for those creatures that are souless?

*Shrug* just some thoughts I had on the subject. view post


The No-God posted 18 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

As you might surmise from my forum name, the No-God is one of if not my most favorite elements in the series. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

First, I also find it very interesting that it asks questions about itself, suggesting some fundamental incapacity to perceive itself in some way...Hmm, could this capacity be--in the metaphysics of PoN--the soul? Seswatha definitely had a soul, and the No-God asked its questiosn of him...The skin-spies are described as being soulless--save the one sorcerous one, I suppose--and their identities are also fluid. Sranc seem more or less interchangeable, or at least we haven't been shown any evidence that they possess individual identities. The Wracu are a notable exception to this.

Second, it seems pretty clear to me that the Bashrag and Wracu, at least, are Inchoroi creations. The Bashrag seem to be three human bodies fused into one, while I think the Wracu are directly spoken of as creations. Or am I totally making this up? Maybe if I read this series as much as I have the Hitchhiker's Guide, I'll have it all memorized and won't have to rely on fading impressions.

Third, I don't think the No-God is sorcerous or connected to the Outside at all. I don't think it can be. Chorae destroy patterns made with what I guess we can call--for lack of another term, let alone a better one--"Outside stuff," or (for brevity's sake), "Outsidium". (:wink:) The Ciphrang is basically fully composed of Outsidium, its Mark being carved "nauseatingly deep," etc. These demons are as easily destroyed by Chorae as sorcerors are. The more one uses sorcery, the more one seems to fuse with the Outside, as some nonmen sorcerors--having used sorcery for an awful long time--are said to have not been able to even come within a certain distance of chorae for fear of salting away (remember Seswatha's view of Mekeritrig's Mark in the Dream of Dagliash). If the No-God were an incredibly powerful piece of sorcery, like a Ciphrang, it probably wouldn't be able to have even one chorae imbedded in its Carapace, let alone eleven of them. Of course, the glossary says only that, "it is said to" have had those chorae, so who knows...

EDIT: The carapace is described as, I think, an "iron sarcophagus," which incidentally also brings to mind something dead, so I have been sort of envisioning a multifaceted, black, dull thing, elongated and slightly wider at the top than the bottom. The facets are my own invention, but I think they look better in my mind's eye than just smooth metal. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> How one is supposed to see this thing through a whirlwind, however... view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by unJon, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Shryke&quot;:1g03ix2z
I find it interesting that the No-God seems to exert some sort of control, and talks through, only those creatures WITHOUT souls. This, to me, seems to be our biggest clue as to the essence of what it is.[/quote:1g03ix2z]

This is interesting because in the last dream of Akka (the one that goes wrong), the no-god speaks through the Kyranean King. view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;Mog-Pharau&quot;:1hoptjwl

Second, it seems pretty clear to me that the Bashrag and Wracu, at least, are Inchoroi creations. The Bashrag seem to be three human bodies fused into one, while I think the Wracu are directly spoken of as creations. Or am I totally making this up?
[/quote:1hoptjwl]

The Sranc, Bashrag, and Wracu are all creations of the Inchoroi. The Bashrag were an attempt to counter the Non-men Siqu and as Scott has mentioned in a question on the Q&amp;A section the only way the Inchoroi could make them string enough was by the fusing of skeletal structures in triplicate (at least for limbs and such.) In away Scott has said they are kind of analogous to Tolkien's Trolls.

As someone else pointed out the Wracu seem to be the only one of these creations we have seen true distinct identities for. Hmm that is interesting. Anyway yea all three are Inchoroi creations. view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Harrol, Moderator

One point I found interesting about the no-god was at the end of The Warrior Prophet. Systhenese(sp) brother was asked by that tribes man if he was the no-god. His reaction was as if he had been paid the highest compliment ever. Does anyone else think that this may be a clue as to whether or not the no-god is a creation of the Inchoroi or just something they found. view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Mithfânion, Didact

I find it interesting that the No-God seems to exert some sort of control, and talks through, only those creatures WITHOUT souls. This, to me, seems to be our biggest clue as to the essence of what it is.


Shryke,

I am not so sure Sranc, Bashrag or Wracu are soulless at all. Was this mentioned at any point, specifically?

Mog

The Bashrag seem to be three human bodies fused into one, while I think the Wracu are directly spoken of as creations. Or am I totally making this up?

Well the Bashrag, like the Sranc, seem to have been made using the Cunuroi genome rather than the human one.

On the No-God in general:

As was mentioned, the No-God is described as being summoned. I therefore do not think he is, like the Heron Spear, an original creation of the Inchoroi Tekne though I realize of course that we cannot exclude that possibility at the moment. Obviously the Inchoroi must have had earlier knowledge of the No-God (perhaps from the planet where they originally hailed from) because otherwise I don't see why they would summon him.

I do know that it was mentioned that they are using the Tekne to resurrect him, but that is a different matter. Orginally, he was summoned. Now, note that Kellhus, in his infinte cleverness, touches on a sore point in his conversation with Aurang when he states that the No-God speaks to him and has let Kellhus know that he is displeased with Aurang, who "failed him". This clearly agitates Aurang greatly. We also have the other Inchoroi at TWP's end who once more confirms the reverence for the No-God.

This further confirms (to me) that the No-God is something greater than the Inchoroi, something greater than what they could create. They did not control the No-God, but worked for him, even as he furthered their ultimate goal of mass extinction.

What I personally wonder about is why Kellhsu dreams of him now. What does this mean? It would seem to indicate that Mog Pharau's mind or spirit is still very much alive, and just waiting for it to be resurrected. view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by zarathustra, Peralogue

Yes Mithfânion, I would agree that the No-God was summoned just as much by the Mangaecca than being a product of the Tekne this is kind of alluded to in TTT where Aurang talks of the cunning of men ressurecting their aborted designs.
I think though that Sranc Bashrag and Wracu do not have souls as this is something that the Tekne cannot normally produce apart from the one accidental skin spy. I think that is important in understanding how the No-God can control them as extensions of his will. Along with this is the fact that all children are still born; it could be said that they do not have souls. This would suggest to me that the No-Gods precence in the world can be seen as partly sealing it off from the outside i.e. no new souls can enter the world.
I wonder if the No-God has a soul himself. Perhaps not as he does not seem to be properly self aware. Yet he no doubt exists as a force in the outside
There is a curious passage in TTT were Cnauir talks about his new skin spy 'friends' he says that they are "keepers of the inverse flame". I think that is important but I don't know why. view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea Zarathustra, it was mentioned that the No-God's coming "broke the Great Cycle of Souls" which I think means exactly what you said it does, no new souls could enter the world which is why all births were still births.

As a general rule creations of the Tekne are Soulless, if they did have Souls there would be a small number among them who could work Sorcery. It is absolutly necessary that to be able to work Sorcery one must also have a soul. Which is why Maithenet was gald that the Consult were never able too replicate what happened with that one Skin-Spy. It was unique in that it had a soul. Imagine Srance, Wracu, and Bashrag Sorcerors? *shudders* view post


The No-God posted 19 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by unJon, Auditor

Quote: &quot;Entropic_existence&quot;:hblq3nbv
Which is why Maithenet was gald that the Consult were never able too replicate what happened with that one Skin-Spy. It was unique in that it had a soul. Imagine Srance, Wracu, and Bashrag Sorcerors? *shudders*[/quote:hblq3nbv]

I do not recall Maithenet knowing that the skin-spy was unique, just that it was the first he had seen/hear of. I don't think that we can conclude that there aren't other skin-spies with souls. Remember that they can also see Chigra in a Mandate Schoolman just like the Synthese can. Though I don't want to say that they all have souls. Just saying, well not really sure, but that we can't say that none still alive have souls. bleh, don't think this makes much sense now upon re-reading. oh well. view post


The No-God posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

No others with a Soul were found yes, there is always the possiblity there is another out there, but think of the odds. The Skin-Spy who did have a soul was an abberation, a freak. If the Consult had of being able to duplicate it knowingly we would definitly have seen more.

So yes could there be more? Of course
But it is the exception to the rule, rather than a defining case. view post


The No-God posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by unJon, Auditor

I'm still not convinced about the magnitude of the abberration. The Consult has a good reason to not teach the skin-spies the Gnosis: they would be Marked. So if the skin-spy was to take over a non-sorceror position, he would have to not know the Gnosis or else it would be easy for any Sorceror to notice the infiltration.

For example the skin-spy that takes over Skeas (sp? the emporer's advisor in TDTCB) would have to not know the Gnosis or the Imperial Saik would sniff it out immediately.

While I'm not sure that I believe it myself, I think that we cannot rule out the possibility that all skin spies have souls. It helps explain how they can see Chigra. And then the proportion of skin-spies that can learn sorcery might be the same as the proportion of humans that are among the few (admittedly still a small number). view post


The No-God posted 20 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Mog-Pharau, Peralogue

Hmm...now, does Maithanet believe in what he preaches? Moenghus seems to say he was sent to prepare the way, thus intimating that he is simply pretending toward the ends of stopping the Consult. view post


The No-God posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Kingmanor, Candidate

Maithanet pretends just as much as Kellhus does. Neither truly believes what they preach. Just a means to an end. view post


The No-God posted 21 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

You can't apply that as a blanket statement to either one, whether they believe or not is often far more complex. I think it is pretty clear that Kelhus does believe some of what he preaches, even if he embellishes, simplifies, and manipulates as a tool to achieve his own ends. But he set against the Consult now, so at least some of what they preach, they do honestly believe <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> Some anyway.... how much is the real question <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


The No-God posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by RiderOnTheStorm, Candidate

What the No-God reminds me of most is the warped child that powers the virtual reality universe in Tad Williams Otherland series. Its been a few years since i read Otherland so i dont remeber specifics and cant make page to page comparisons but that is what good ole Mog reminds me of. view post


The No-God posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Cu Roi, Candidate

This thought occured to me while writing in another forum. I intended to sleep but wanted to be sure that I wasn't imagining things.

Entropic_existence, where does it say that the coming of the No-God interrupted the great cycle of souls?

A cycle would imply reincarnation. A theme not yet touched upon in PoN.

Curious. view post


The No-God posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Cu Roi&quot;:2ei58vxb
This thought occured to me while writing in another forum. I intended to sleep but wanted to be sure that I wasn't imagining things.

Entropic_existence, where does it say that the coming of the No-God interrupted the great cycle of souls?

A cycle would imply reincarnation. A theme not yet touched upon in PoN.

Curious.[/quote:2ei58vxb]

I think the "great cycle of souls" interuption was mentioned in one of Achamian's dreams towards the end of TTT, I might find a page number a bit later. I think the reference was to the pandemic of still births that ensued after the No-God was summoned/created (which for mine was the most bloody evil thing I've ever read - in the evil stakes the No-God beats Sauron, Morgoth and Lord Voldemort, he's up there with Mrs Coulter). Anyway, the still births arguably did represent the interuption to the great cycle of souls, no new souls were introduced into the world during the No-God's existence. I don't think a reference to reincarnation is tenable. view post


The No-God posted 23 February 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Yea it was either in one of Achamian's Dreams or in one of the Glossary entries but not sure which or a page number right now, but it was the exact wording used. As Anor pointed out a cycle doesn't need to imply reincarnation. Soulds do cycle through Earwa even if they aren't reused. view post


The No-God posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Anonymous, Subdidact

DELETED view post


The No-God posted 15 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by H, Auditor

But the fact that he doesn't know what he is would point to his not being a 'god' and actually have been created somehow... view post


The No-God posted 16 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;H&quot;:znwwqqi7
But the fact that he doesn't know what he is would point to his not being a 'god' and actually have been created somehow...[/quote:znwwqqi7]

The carapace of the No-God was also covered with chorae. He is obviously a different order from the Ciphrang, lesser gods who were affected by chorae. The nature of the No-God and his relationaship to the Consult will be one of the most interesting discoveries we make in the next novels. While the Consult &quot;raised&quot; him, it is hard to see such a terrifying being under the control of Shauriatis, Mekeritrig, etc. By the same token the Sranc, the Bashrag, the Wracu, were clearly under the No-Gods control - witness one of Seswatha's dreams where he battles a dragon &quot;Your god (i.e. the dragons) is not a God at all&quot;. And why did the Scylvendi worship him? view post


The No-God posted 16 March 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe No-God by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I think hia name should be saying something to you No-God view post


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