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Mekeritrig posted 28 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ismellofhockey, Commoner

Hi everyone, new to the forum but glad to find a community that appreciated the PoN series as much as I did (perhaps more in some cases).

As for Mekeritrig, there is the question of how the Heron Spear came to be found again, it doesn't take a huge leap of reasoning to figure out Mekeritrig would have had access to the weapon and that it would exlpain how he fought for and against the No-God.

Pure speculation of course since I can't figure out any reason why he'd change camps again but who knows.

As for his allegiance now, Anasûrimbor is a name important to the Mandate but would the Consult know of this prophecy or care? Celmomas announced the prophecy with his dying breath to Seswatha, perhaps the Consult knows nothing of it.
It does seem as has been said that after Mekeritrig's encounter with Kellhus that they are actively seeking out the Dunyain, I'm not sure they'd see any reason to seek out Kellhus in particular.

They also know the Dunyain are in the North, so Kellhus' encounter with the Non-Man did bring them some information as to their location. view post


Mekeritrig posted 28 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Harrol, Moderator

I believe that if Mekeritrig and the other eratics could some how be restored with their memories they would most likely turn on the consult. Of course good luck with that because it won't happen most likely. view post


Mekeritrig posted 28 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: "Ismellofhockey":odesbyl8
Hi everyone, new to the forum but glad to find a community that appreciated the PoN series as much as I did (perhaps more in some cases).

As for Mekeritrig, there is the question of how the Heron Spear came to be found again, it doesn't take a huge leap of reasoning to figure out Mekeritrig would have had access to the weapon and that it would exlpain how he fought for and against the No-God.

Pure speculation of course since I can't figure out any reason why he'd change camps again but who knows.

As for his allegiance now, Anasûrimbor is a name important to the Mandate but would the Consult know of this prophecy or care? Celmomas announced the prophecy with his dying breath to Seswatha, perhaps the Consult knows nothing of it.
It does seem as has been said that after Mekeritrig's encounter with Kellhus that they are actively seeking out the Dunyain, I'm not sure they'd see any reason to seek out Kellhus in particular.

They also know the Dunyain are in the North, so Kellhus' encounter with the Non-Man did bring them some information as to their location.[/quote:odesbyl8]

The Mandate and Consult fought a war for a few hundred years, I bet they know of the prophecy. Besides that the name alone would be enough to give one pause. Imagine if someone named Genghis Khan just showed up out of the blue leading some big army... I bet we would stop and think for a bit <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


Mekeritrig posted 29 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by brandon, Candidate

I think the only way the consult would know of the prophecy is if the mandate openly speaks of it. Otherwise, there is no reason why the consult would think to ask the mandate if they have any prophecies they might like to know about. on top of that, the consult work with science. i don't believe they would put any weight in a prophecy. view post


Mekeritrig posted 29 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Murrin, Peralogue

Since the Consult had a spy in the Mandate, I expect it's safe to say they know everything the Mandate knows, which would include the Celmomian Prophecy. view post


Mekeritrig posted 29 July 2006 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Entropic_existence, Moderator

Quote: &quot;brandon&quot;:2cswok68
I think the only way the consult would know of the prophecy is if the mandate openly speaks of it. Otherwise, there is no reason why the consult would think to ask the mandate if they have any prophecies they might like to know about. on top of that, the consult work with science. i don't believe they would put any weight in a prophecy.[/quote:2cswok68]

The Inchoroi began using Sorcery as well as the Tekne sometime after their arrival in the world and their wars with the Non-men started. The Consult was formed by a Human Sorcerous school gone rogue and the surviving Inchoroi, they use Sorcery just as much as the Tekne, probably more so actually since it is reliable and not all guess work. view post


Mekeritrig posted 03 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

I'm interested to see if anyone will actually reply to posts in this forum anymore.

Due to the holidays, I havn't been able to find time to just sit and write a post, though I did check in every now and again. Unfortunantly, I've come to find, even sitting here early this afternoon, that not one but Harrol has replied to a thread in the TTT forum since myself. Thankfully there looks to be no lack of readers so perhaps it's been the same for others as myself.

Today, if I manage to finish this post without falling asleep on my keyboard, I've decided to reply to this Mekeritrig thread as it's one I've wanted to reply to since my first days on the Three Seas forum.

Again, as it's especially relevant to this thread, I don't think many of the original posters are still actively writing in TTT forum so rather than direct my comments to the posts that originally incited me to write I'm just going to reply to the thread as a whole.

Just as a premise to the following, I think the main problem many of you encounter in your Mekeritrig speculation is mixed chronology. Not to say that Cû'jara Cinmoi's timeline is skewed, as anor suggested, but that many of you don't have a keen understanding of the timeline to begin with.

Cet'ingira:

What astounds me about Nonmen, though predominantly Cet'ingira as he is still prominent in Eärwa even in 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, is that any living had been there the day Cû'jara Cinmoi laid Hanalinqû's corpse before the unholy Ark.

Cet'ingira then has walked Eärwa a very long time.

I'd come to assume, and now have learnt after stumbling upon it's entry in TTT Glossary, that the Breaking of the Gates marks 0 Year-of-the-Tusk. Before the Cûno-Halaroi Wars, the wars between Nonmen and Men, the Cûnoroi had waged a five century long war against the Inchoroi throughout Eärwa and for a fifth of a century throughout the Ark itself.

Cet'ingira himself was one of those Cûnoroi, whether he'd been born days before the Womb-Plague or was already an adult by Cûnoroi standards. We can assume he's been living for at least four and a half millennia warring against uncountable foes beside Cûnoroi, Man, and Consult.

In 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira, Nonmen Quya, Siqu to King Carû-Ongonean of Ancient Umeria, and I assume long Erratic, revealed the glamour surrounding the Ark to the Gnostic sorcerers of the Mangaecca.

I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning. For the life of me, I cannot find where I read it before. Perhaps, had I tackled this thread before the holidays, and subsequent holiday book purchases I made, I might have had an easier time finding it. However, post-holidays, I have about 9 unread books to read, though two have already been devoured. Metaphorically speaking anyhow. So my mind is not as attune to Mr. Bakker's world as it was.

It's also mentioned that the Inchoroi brothers seduced (their captor?) Mekeritrig who in turn revealed Min-Uroikas to the then grandmaster of the Mangaecca


Sometime between the beginning of the Cûnoroi-Inchoroi Wars and 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira had an encounter with the Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax. Apparently, he was their captor.

In 825 Year-of-the-Tusk the period of Norsirai-Cûnoroi trade ended and the Nonmen Siqu retreated to their Mansions. In the years between the Expulsion and the outlawing of Shaeönanra and the Mangaecca in 1123, we can assume that Cet'ingira was circulating between the Mansions and Min-Uroikas. Cet'ingira's influence on the Mangaecca and the Consult was likely invaluable, as he was obviously a remarkable Quya and warrior. The same goes for the timeframe between 1123 and Celmomas II's First Ordeal.

In my speculation it is at this time during either the first or Second Great Investiture, though I'm leaning towards the Second, that Mekertrig openly renounces his Mansion and Peoples for the Inchoroi and the Consult.

&quot;I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.&quot;


My speculation is that when Mekeritrig meets Kellhus in the wilderness of Sobel, he is describing to Kellhus his desertion in the above quote. I speculate that during the Second Great Investiture, Mekeritrig was part of Nil'giccas's contingent. I have a vision in my head of Mekeritrig scaling Golgotterath in the lightning and rain, the twin horns of the Ark framing him, and upon reaching the ramparts, insteading of attacking, merely turns to Celmomas II and bows his chin to his shoulder before turning into his new Mansion as it were.

Anyhow, I'm don't mean to seemingly cut this post short or anything but I want to quickly read it over and finally post before I head out for the afternoon. Gotta book it to a buddies house, and then to work as usual. SSDD. Hope anyone reading out there enjoyed. view post


Mekeritrig posted 04 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Harrol, Moderator

I enjoyed your post a lot. I will need to read up on it more. The erratics are of great interest to me. The questions I ask is why are some erratics and others aren't? view post


Mekeritrig posted 04 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

Well Im quite familiar with the timeline so most of what you said was not of much interest to me, however I did like your idea about Mekeritrig's statement

&quot;I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.&quot;
That would be a good explanation for it, though Im not entirely convinced that was what happened.

As for why people aren't active much in this section of the forum, I think I can answer that for you. For one thing most people don't have much else to write or say about the book, they are burned out so to speak on speculation, this is somewhat the case for myself I only reply to a topic in this section if someone raises an excellent point or something that has not been said before, anor does much the same. as much of the topics and posts these days are simply restatements of what others have already written, most of the members of this board just check back for updates on the next books in the series and since Scott has not frequented the board in so long theres not much incentive for them.

As always I enjoyed reading your post. view post


Mekeritrig posted 07 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:5nyo2opw
Just as a premise to the following, I think the main problem many of you encounter in your Mekeritrig speculation is mixed chronology. Not to say that Cû'jara Cinmoi's timeline is skewed, as anor suggested, but that many of you don't have a keen understanding of the timeline to begin with.

Cet'ingira:

What astounds me about Nonmen, though predominantly Cet'ingira as he is still prominent in Eärwa even in 4112 Year-of-the-Tusk, is that any living had been there the day Cû'jara Cinmoi laid Hanalinqû's corpse before the unholy Ark.

Cet'ingira then has walked Eärwa a very long time.

I'd come to assume, and now have learnt after stumbling upon it's entry in TTT Glossary, that the Breaking of the Gates marks 0 Year-of-the-Tusk. Before the Cûno-Halaroi Wars, the wars between Nonmen and Men, the Cûnoroi had waged a five century long war against the Inchoroi throughout Eärwa and for a fifth of a century throughout the Ark itself.

Cet'ingira himself was one of those Cûnoroi, whether he'd been born days before the Womb-Plague or was already an adult by Cûnoroi standards. We can assume he's been living for at least four and a half millennia warring against uncountable foes beside Cûnoroi, Man, and Consult.

In 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira, Nonmen Quya, Siqu to King Carû-Ongonean of Ancient Umeria, and I assume long Erratic, revealed the glamour surrounding the Ark to the Gnostic sorcerers of the Mangaecca.

I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning. For the life of me, I cannot find where I read it before. Perhaps, had I tackled this thread before the holidays, and subsequent holiday book purchases I made, I might have had an easier time finding it. However, post-holidays, I have about 9 unread books to read, though two have already been devoured. Metaphorically speaking anyhow. So my mind is not as attune to Mr. Bakker's world as it was.

It's also mentioned that the Inchoroi brothers seduced (their captor?) Mekeritrig who in turn revealed Min-Uroikas to the then grandmaster of the Mangaecca


Sometime between the beginning of the Cûnoroi-Inchoroi Wars and 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, Cet'ingira had an encounter with the Inchoroi, Aurang and Aurax. Apparently, he was their captor.

In 825 Year-of-the-Tusk the period of Norsirai-Cûnoroi trade ended and the Nonmen Siqu retreated to their Mansions. In the years between the Expulsion and the outlawing of Shaeönanra and the Mangaecca in 1123, we can assume that Cet'ingira was circulating between the Mansions and Min-Uroikas. Cet'ingira's influence on the Mangaecca and the Consult was likely invaluable, as he was obviously a remarkable Quya and warrior. The same goes for the timeframe between 1123 and Celmomas II's First Ordeal.

In my speculation it is at this time during either the first or Second Great Investiture, though I'm leaning towards the Second, that Mekertrig openly renounces his Mansion and Peoples for the Inchoroi and the Consult.

&quot;I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.&quot;


My speculation is that when Mekeritrig meets Kellhus in the wilderness of Sobel, he is describing to Kellhus his desertion in the above quote. I speculate that during the Second Great Investiture, Mekeritrig was part of Nil'giccas's contingent. I have a vision in my head of Mekeritrig scaling Golgotterath in the lightning and rain, the twin horns of the Ark framing him, and upon reaching the ramparts, insteading of attacking, merely turns to Celmomas II and bows his chin to his shoulder before turning into his new Mansion as it were.

Anyhow, I'm don't mean to seemingly cut this post short or anything but I want to quickly read it over and finally post before I head out for the afternoon. Gotta book it to a buddies house, and then to work as usual. SSDD. Hope anyone reading out there enjoyed.[/quote:5nyo2opw]

@Madness, congratgulations, at the moment you're the only one on this forum to be making original postings. I have been up to my elbows in baby poo for the past two weeks; it's only now I am back at work I have time to spare.

Your speculations re Mekeritrig are reasonable; whether they are sound as well is a question we'll have to wait. There is so much that we don't know. Despite some tantalizing glimpses into Non-men culture in TTT, we know next to nothing about Non-men culture and society; we also know that Non-men society was moribund during most of human history. In fact, but for a comment by Scott (which he possibly regrets making, I regret reading it), we would not have known that the Non-man Kellhus encountered in the far North was Mekeritrig, arch betrayer and evil genius of the Consult; such knowledge appears nowhere in the novels.

Of course of the surviving Non-men, given their experiences, it is a wonder that they are all not entirely bonkers, i.e. life spans in the order of 5000+ years, perpetual youth (which might have broken down a bit over the ages), the end of their ancient race as an evolving force - as far as revenge went, certanly the Inchoroi authored a terrible vengeance on the Non-Men. Scott mentioned somehwere that the last Non-men kings spend much of their time developing strategies to prevent all of their remaining subjects from descending into madness What we'll learn in the next few novels probebly won't answer all our questions view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Thanks for the praise, anor, whether deserved or not. I suspect the only reasons my posts seem original are that I'm, perhaps, more enamored with the series than most, as well as Warrior-Poet's point that many, more active posters have ceased speculation and only return for updates on The Aspect-Emperor.

However, as long as someone is here to read and, perhaps, contemplate with me, I will continue writing. Not just a little bit for my own selfish pleasure either, as I love to write.

I decided to write this little post in regards to Harrol's unanswerable question and to reiterate anor's final paragraph.

To begin; Mr. Bakker's actual quote:

Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.


In direct response to Harrol's question, based on Mr. Bakker's words, it seems to me then that the difference between an Erratic and non-Erratic basically comes down to skill, morality of the soul, and sheer willpower.

Though I cannot direct you, at the moment, to my former speculations on Nonmen involvement in future events of the Three Seas, I can reiterate a little of that speculation here.

As I wrote before in my deleted post The Aspect-Emperor, I believe the most plausible, as well as my personal favorite, explantion for Achamian's sorcerous ascendency to Seswatha's parallel in the intervening years until The Aspect-Emperor books, is that he will be the one to intrude on the Nonmen fastness of Ishterebinth.

Again, as I've written before, Achamian has no allies to speak of in the Three Seas. While Achamian is not being hunted by Kellhus's agents, as a wizard he will, post-end of TTT, be desperately avoiding persecution at the hands of the Schools or the Thousand Temples.

Curethan wrote, though in another post:

Seswatha seemed to be highly manipulative and focused on defeating the consult only


At the end of TTT, though not blatantly highly manipulative, Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult. In the last moments of the First Holy War we, as readers, experience Achamian's final moment of true emotion.

Achamian nodded, wiped the last tear he knew he would ever shed. He would be heartless now. A perfect man.


Esmenet, until that final, tearing moment, had been Achamian's ground, world, and life; the largest and last barrier between himself and the Mandate's goal of Consult defeat.

Therefore, his goal bared and not entirely trusting Kellhus's propositions of war against the Consult, where else can Achamian turn but towards refuge in the north? Especially with the added incentive of studying and elaborating with the original practioners of the Gnosis, the Nonmen; a race of peoples, according to Mr. Bakker, labouring fanatically in their crafts for their very minds and lives.

In my opinion, the only place in the intervening years between TTT and the first book of The Aspect-Emperor for Achamian to gain power and allies, would be Ishterebinth. view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

I keep kicking myself everytime I read the following quote by anor, or half quote as I've edited it a bit, about Mekeritrig's turning.


Alas, the quote your referring to was originally inferred by Kellhus. During the meeting with Moengus. As I recall, Kellhus gave a passing description of the Consult's ranking members as we know them, and in that passage it has a quote that coincides with what Anor stated...something along the lines of &quot;How Aurang and Aurax perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig.&quot; Which is where the quote, and the presumption of coercion lies.

While Achamian is not being hunted by Kellhus's agents, as a wizard he will, post-end of TTT, be desperately avoiding persecution at the hands of the Schools or the Thousand Temples.


What schools? The Cishaurim are extinct, and the Imperial Saik, and the Scarlet Spires have been bled to the point of endangerment. Even if they were able to go on raiding parties in 5-8 a time (disasterous numbers considering their respective sizes) it's a technically superior Gnostic sorcerer they are hunting. I doubt any of the current schools will risk it; including the Mandate who is likely to busy sizing up their newly discovered Harbringer to sound or even deal with the departure of one of their members.

Also, you forget that Maithanet controls the Thousand Temples, and Kellhus controls Maithanet. If the order is given not to hunt Achamian by Kellhus, then they won't. It's not in his intents to kill him, when he said &quot;The next time you come before me you will kneel,&quot; he spoke in an absolute, not a threat.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult.


He is not &quot;alone&quot; per se, I would imagine much of the Quorum will be just as adamant in getting Kellhus to act as Achamian was; if not more so, seeing as how Achamian was disenfranchised with the beliefs of his school, whereas Nautzera was a fanatic.

Also, we have take into consideration the fact that Aspect Emperor takes place 20 years in the future. Sranc will have become even more innumerable than they are now, and they may yet develop the boldness to try and strike the Three Seas instead of confining their raids to the north. If this occurs, there will be public outcry; and conspiracies that the Second Apocalypse is beginning. The Skin Spies are no longer covert knowledge, I'm fairly sure they ALL know of them, or have heard rumor of them from those that have returned from Kian. In order to quell this, whether he wants to or not (a subject worthy of debate, I think) the Aspect Emperor will have to act.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the Mandate; reveling in their newfound reputation had started speaking again of the Second Apocalypse with the zeal of the vindicated and assured. If the people are more apt to listen to them, I'd imagine public opinion may force Kellhus's hand; especially if they believe a ruler is being complacent at a time when their very lives are being threatened.

Therefore, his goal bared and not entirely trusting Kellhus's propositions of war against the Consult, where else can Achamian turn but towards refuge in the north?


The west, specifically. The north is dangerous, he could run into the Sranc, or the Consult if he decided to go there, and seeing as how Ishterbinth is slightly north of Ishual (where Sranc have been shown to go), and also seeing as how I'd imagine that Ishterbinth is hidden from human eyes and knowledge (we've never seen a human mention this fortress, to my knowledge) I doubt he'd think to turn there first.

Especially with the added incentive of studying and elaborating with the original practioners of the Gnosis, the Nonmen; a race of peoples, according to Mr. Bakker, labouring fanatically in their crafts for their very minds and lives.


I would be interested in seeing Achamian learn witchcraft more than added variants of the Gnosis. Witchcraft carries the benefits of being a largely arcane and hidden sorcery in the Three Seas, and if they have other capabilities that usurp things like Anagogic Colors, and Uroborian Circles like the Wathi Doll, then learning their mode of sorcery could prove beneficial when combined with what he has already mastered.

In my opinion, the only place in the intervening years between TTT and the first book of The Aspect-Emperor for Achamian to gain power and allies, would be Ishterebinth.


Assuming Achamian even knows where Ishterebinth is (which I highly doubt) what leads you to believe that the Non-Men would be apt to throw open their gates to a human? view post


Mekeritrig posted 15 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Ulyaoth, once again, however articulate and, perhaps, intelligent your writing might be, you need to look at the facts more closely. I think a perusal of TTT Glossary would be largely to your benefit in future speculations.

As you have very much incited me to write, I guess I'll just respond to your post chronologically.

I'll start off with thanks for my benefit of your reading. I've found the quote of Kellhus's inference again. It, however upon reading again, does make me a little sceptical of Kellhus's inferring ability and my own speculation of Mekeritrig as captor of Aurang and Aurax.

I regret again my inability to point you in the direction of my The Aspect-Emperor post. You might have benefitted from it and I probably wouldn't be having to write these words once again.

The Cishaurim, Mandate, Imperial Saik, and Scarlet Spires are hardly the culmination of sorcerous power in the Three Seas. TTT Glossary mentions the Circle of Nibel, which is one of the supposed Major Schools in the Three Seas and an entirely unmentioned School throughout the books. Even despite the facts that this implies more unheard of sorcerous factions, and that the Circle of Nibel and the Mysunsai were entirely undamaged in the First Holy War, aside from Skaleteas, I highly doubt the Mandate or the Scarlet Spires will cease hunting Achamian on Kellhus's say-so.

Throughout TTT we experience through Achamian activities and events surrounding the Sacral Retinue. Despite that there are continual claims throughout TTT that the old ways are dead and that there is this new undeniable vulnerability and honesty in the Warrior-Prophet's presence, as Achamian states it collapses into old habits and bigotry's the moment he leaves.

And there were the politics, of course, though they were largely confined to jnanic posturing of the caste-nobles who continually drifted in and out of the Sacral Retinue. All manoeuvring, no matter what its stripe, would instantly collapse into uniform servility whenever Kellhus appeared, and just as quickly leap back into effect when he was departed.


This implies to myself and, I think, Achamian that Kellhus's new world order is not as stable nor honest as it appears.

The Mandate only join the events of the First Holy War at it's end. They do not come though with the intention of servitude. Nautzera, and through him probably the Quorum, continually tell Achamian that their intentions are to possess Kellhus and that he is to be nothing more than a tool of the Mandate.

Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult. Up until the end of TTT Achamian's only other concern in life was Esmenet. Following his renouncing Achamian's only other loyalty was towards Seswatha.

You can write of any other character and they would have personal motives in what they've done and intend to do. Achamian is now the sole character, as was Seswatha, that has no purpose for life other than Consult defeat, as probably Cû'jara Cinmoi intended by the events that have shaped Achamian.

The rest of your rebuttals are almost sheer idiocy.

By refuge in the north, I specifically meant Ishterebinth, and not as you've seem to imply a safe geological zone as the west might be.

Yes, perhaps, and it is likely, there are glamours surrounding Ishterebinth's entrances. However, I do believe if Achamian were inclined he could find the telltale Mark of sorcery surrounding these glamours and that, again if he were inclined, he could reveal to the Nonmen the genesis of events that lead him to seek their aid over other humans. I'm sure even the Nonmen would be apt to listen to a tale involving possible clash with, and possibly even defeat of, their ancient foes once again.

Also, the sole purpose for Achamian's continued education of the Gnosis, is that not only will the Mangaecca have elaborated severely on it themselves, no other sorcery of the Three Seas or elsewhere can compete with the Gnosis.

Finally, I again reiterate my wish that you read or reread TTT Glossary before your continued speculation on The Aspect-Emperor, as the Wathi Doll is the only artifact, that you've named, of witchcraft.

Agonic Collar:

A sorcerous artifact of the Ancient North, reputedly crafted by the Mihtrulic Gnostic School. According to Mandate scholars, the purpose of the Agonic Collar was analogous to that of the Uroborian Circle utilized by the Anagogic Schools of the Three Seas, namely, to inflict excruciating pain on the wearer should he attempt to utter any sorcerous incantation.

Uroborian Circle: A so-called &quot;artifactual Cant&quot; used to prevent the utterance of sorcery and thought to turn on the same aporetic principles that make Chorae possible.

Related to the Aporic and Gnostic schools of sorcery more than to witchcraft, which I believe is Anagogic sorcery anyhow. view post


Mekeritrig posted 16 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:17g6f36k
.........................

Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult. Up until the end of TTT Achamian's only other concern in life was Esmenet. Following his renouncing Achamian's only other loyalty was towards Seswatha.

You can write of any other character and they would have personal motives in what they've done and intend to do. Achamian is now the sole character, as was Seswatha, that has no purpose for life other than Consult defeat, as probably Cû'jara Cinmoi intended by the events that have shaped Achamian.

........................[/quote:17g6f36k]

I am actually not so covinced as you are that Achamian is as pure in his motives in opposing the Consult - certainly he could have done a better job in opposing the Consult as Kellhus' vizier (whatever that is) despite his jealousy. Achamian at the end denounced both his school and Seswatha as criminals and murderers (and I think quite rightly). For mine he was trying to withdraw from the struggle against the Consult. As you point out, the Mandate will now probably be anxious to snuff out a renegade and Achamian will need Kellhus' forbearance to survive. view post


Mekeritrig posted 16 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

It, however upon reading again, does make me a little sceptical of Kellhus's inferring ability and my own speculation of Mekeritrig as captor of Aurang and Aurax.


I'm certain the inference garnered and articulated by Kellhus was initiated through Achamian's stories, which may have led him to these conclusions. If this is the case, it is very likely that his descriptions are correct.

I regret again my inability to point you in the direction of my The Aspect-Emperor post. You might have benefitted from it and I probably wouldn't be having to write these words once again.


There's no need to. I've read it before; if it's the post I'm thinking of where you listed the current factions and the role you think they'll play or some such. In this post, you stated that you did not know Proyas' fathers name, as I recall. It's Eukernas II, if memory serves. But I digress. There's no need to reference the post. I knew the information within it then, and I know much of the information you state now, whatever disagreements may arrive from the conclusions reached.

The Cishaurim, Mandate, Imperial Saik, and Scarlet Spires are hardly the culmination of sorcerous power in the Three Seas. TTT Glossary mentions the Circle of Nibel, which is one of the supposed Major Schools in the Three Seas and an entirely unmentioned School throughout the books. Even despite the facts that this implies more unheard of sorcerous factions, and that the Circle of Nibel and the Mysunsai were entirely undamaged in the First Holy War, aside from Skaleteas, I highly doubt the Mandate or the Scarlet Spires will cease hunting Achamian on Kellhus's say-so.


Several things to cover in this post. I did neglect the Circle of Nibel, I had somewhat forgotten them, but outside of the name, they have nothing to factor into any given speculations due to sparse information. The Myusunai I did intentionally neglect; they're anagogic sorcerers...by what logic would they hunt a superior sorcerer and risk valuable, trained members of their school when their affairs lie not with hunting other sorcerers, but with accruing additional profit? They're mercenaries. The only situation I can see them hunting Achamian is if they were asked.

Furthermore, I reference Achamian's own future words in my assessment. When he was writing the Compendium of the Holy War his fear wasn't from being caught by other sorcerers; it was heresy...he didn't reveal the knowledge he garnered of Kellhus because that, much more so than being hunted would have assured death. I imagine a man running from pursuers would have neither the time or desire to actually write a book...

Despite that there are continual claims throughout TTT that the old ways are dead and that there is this new undeniable vulnerability and honesty in the Warrior-Prophet's presence, as Achamian states it collapses into old habits and bigotry's the moment he leaves.


The old ways being dead is another reason why I think Achamian will not be hunted. Also, Achamian doesn't state that it collapses into old habits and bigotry's, I only recall there being an uproar as he renounced his school, and their Warrior-Prophet, and Prophet-Consort, an act of disrespectful sedition. And likely the sole cause of their rousing.

This implies to myself and, I think, Achamian that Kellhus's new world order is not as stable nor honest as it appears.


Which is not to say that in 20...10, or 5 years this will be case.

They do not come though with the intention of servitude.


Of course not. But then, what person that now serves Kellhus did? Part of the reason for Kellhus's moving against Shimeh was because he wanted to treat with the Quorum as equals, and if they had no part in what occurred, they would have no basis in thinking that what has been wrought was of their manufacture. They have an Aspect-Emperor who holds in his hand the collective might of the Three Seas, with the force of his positioning, and his undeniable charisma, the Mandate will be made tools soon enough. There's no reason not to expect otherwise.

Once again, I'll reiterate; the Mandate will most likely be among the foremost of Achamian's pursuers, based on the facts that Kellhus's new total servitude and honesty system is false as well as that the Mandate Quorum still think themselves Kellhus's master.


False on his end, perhaps. Not the end of his servants, who do, indeed authentically adore and revere his presence.

Achamian is alone focused solely on defeating the Consult.


I agree that Achamian is alone, for now. I don't, however, think he is alone in focusing on the Consult; which I articulated in my previous post.

The rest of your rebuttals are almost sheer idiocy.


On what merits?

By refuge in the north, I specifically meant Ishterebinth, and not as you've seem to imply a safe geological zone as the west might be.


I know that...

What I was saying - and I thought I said this clearly - was that going to the West (which would invariably imply Zeum) would be a more logical decision than going to the north. Ishterebinth by my memory is obscenely close to Golgotterath, and it's beyond Atrithau not to mention being behind an entire mountain range. Assuming Achamian knows about it (which I have expressed doubts over) it would be a near fatal journey to attempt to find it; especially when taking into consideration that Non-Men friendly to the Consult, as well as Sranc roam the lands to the north at leisure...

Also, the sole purpose for Achamian's continued education of the Gnosis, is that not only will the Mangaecca have elaborated severely on it themselves, no other sorcery of the Three Seas or elsewhere can compete with the Gnosis.


No other sorcery can compete with the Gnosis. But Achamian can't compete with every sorcerer. He has superior sorcerers amongst the Non-Men, the Mangaecca, and the Consult's ranking members to worry about. These sorcerers have had far, far, far, far more than a mere 20 years to master it; they've had millennia. No matter what Achamian learns, he'll never, ever match up to these sorcerers by himself. It would make more sense to me to delve into a branch of sorcery that's untouched by knowledge and combine that with the rudiments of the Gnosis he knows than it would be to go on a futile quest in mastering the Gnosis.

If he's going to confront superior sorcerers; even if this includes Kellhus, and his sons, if he wants to stand a chance, he's going to have to attack them in ways that are beyond their comprehension or expectations. This is why I considered Witchcraft; judging from the Wathi Doll, it seems be an unorthodox sorcery, which is why it would be effective against his superiors.

Finally, I again reiterate my wish that you read or reread TTT Glossary before your continued speculation on The Aspect-Emperor, as the Wathi Doll is the only artifact, that you've named, of witchcraft.


And I suggest that you read the underlying message of my post before seeking to correct me. I didn't bring up the Agonic Collar and the Uroborian circles as objects of Witchcraft, I brought them up as objects that could be negated by Witchcraft, as evidenced by Achamian's escape from Iothiah. This could be a very potentially useful fact, and one that I'm sure Achamian would consider in the 20 years of his travel. view post


Mekeritrig posted 17 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Ulyaoth, I find it interesting that aside from your speculation on Moënghus's salting, you've found no better way to spend your time and intelligence than to disprove my theories.

I'll admit that I've done the same but usually to offer alternative speculation of a more intelligent sort. Once again, despite your claims of my ineptitude, I suggest you read my posts more carefully before seeking to correct me, quote by quote.

However, seeing as two of my chief qualms on these forums are being misunderstood and misconceptions of Mr. Bakker's literature, I feel the need to respond in kind. Though I won't quote you.

To start off, I understand quite well from where Kellhus garnered set inference. I also, not being as intelligent as either Mr. Bakker nor the Dûnyain, understand that any inferences of Kellhus's are likely correct.

Kellhus's exact words are as follows:

&quot;You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmastaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn.&quot;


As yourself and I have both agreed he likely, if not more than likely, inferred this through Achamian's stories. Before his final dream in TTT, I believe anything Achamian has referenced either from Seswatha's memories or his scholarly knowledge is likely true. Like Iyokus, we know Achamian to be quite the antiquitarian.

My reasons for scepticism, however, lie once again in TTT Glossary.

In the entries the Apocalypse, Shaeönanra, and Mangaecca Cû'jara Cinmoi gives us reason to doubt the accurateness of the second half of Kellhus's statement; which in turn gave me reason to doubt the first.

I'll not quote the excerpts as you've obviously thoroughly read the books, and you claim TTT Glossary, but I will write the jist of fact which is basis for my doubt and speculation.

Basically, in 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, during the Nonmen Tutelage the Nonman Erratic Cet'ingira reveals to the &quot;Gnostic School of Mangaecca&quot; the glamour surrounding Min-Uroikas.

This holds true in both the Mangaecca and Apocalypse excerpts. Then in the Shaeönanra excerpt it states that he was born c. 1086.

Perhaps, as it could very well be fact, Mekeritrig did corrupt Shaeönanra in his turn, as Kellhus inferred. However, I think it more likely that Shaeönanra just proved to be the prodigy his excerpt makes him out to be and rose through the ranks of the Mangaecca and subsequent Consult to become the ranking member he is.

Before moving onto the tired arguement of Schools, I'll thank you once again for my benefit of your reading. I had finally found the name of Proyas's father, amongst Achamian's TTT ponderings, but didn't get around to remedying my former post before it was deleted.

I keep re-reading your words on the Schools and am not surprised to find ignorant reiterations. You need to read my words more carefully.

I am beginning to understand that we are of two very seperate schools of thought about the PoN. You, on one hand, are the very embodiment of Kellhus's subjects; even knowing what he is, as an objective observer of a third person narrative. It seems to me that you think he can do no wrong as he seems to possess everyone eventually.

On the other hand, I myself never quite shook the observations of the Dûnyain from Cnaiür's narration and am definitely of like mind regarding anything Dûnyain. Therefore, until nearly the end of TTT I never trusted anything Kellhus said or did as anything more than tools until it became apparent that he was becoming deluged by emotion. Mind you I didn't dislike him for his amorality; I applauded him for it. He will be quite less exceptional once he's fully engulfed by the madness of emotion.

In that mindset I approach the subject of the Schools once more. Yes, I agree that, perhaps, the Mandate like the majority will succumb to Kellhus in the end. However, I'll reiterate that your arguments for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, even the Imperial Saik, at the end of the First Holy War are flawed.

There seems to be a concensus between Schools that wizards and witches are to be hunted to extermination. This, to me, seems wise given that aside from the Imperial Saik the Schools remain indifferent towards the religious and secular powers of the Three Seas, and defections of members to such institutions could prove disastrous. This was the only reason I included the Mysunsai in hunt speculations as they likely would honor set concensus.

As for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, again at the end of the First Holy War, neither believe Kellhus to be a prophet. In fact, though the Mandate must now treat with Kellhus instead of seizing him, they remain convinced that they will be in control of his actions towards the Consult. The Scarlet Spires on the other hand, though severely weakened, have a Grandmaster who just plain doesn't believe in Kellhus and has a major grudge against Achamian. The above, to me, lend reason to why the Quorum and Scarlet Spires Grandmaster might be inclined to ignore Kellhus's forbearance of anything Achamian.

I disagree as well with your assertions on the Imperial Saik and the Circle of Nibel. The Imperial Saik, aside from losing their Grandmaster and a handful of sorcerers to the Scylvendi and Achamian, have been relatively unharmed as a School throughout the events of the PoN. The Circle of Nibel on the other hand have been completely unharmed throughout the events of the First Holy War and given that they are a Major School of the Three Seas, gives plenty of reason to include them in speculation even if limited in range.

I think you've mistaken the aim of my posts here on the Three Seas forum. Other than quell any misconceptions of fact and speculation, my ultimate goal is to see if, either individually - nigh impossible - or collectively with other posters, the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor can be discerned now. You say your familiar with my former post, so you'll realize I'm just reiterating much of what I've said there.

This is another reason why I didn't respond to your arguments for Achamian not being alone against the Consult. In my former post I articulate that bar Consult move in force - which would include Sranc attacking populated Three Seas - Achamian is solely bent towards Consult defeat.

The only other argument I feel the need to respond to, though I will admit I did misread your post, is the one of Witchcraft.

The negation of the Uroborian Circle by Achamian's Wathi Doll was exceptionally improvised on Achamian's part. It in no way implies, as you seem to believe, that Witchcraft possesses negating properties of sorcery as does, once again, the Aporos, which I might add has been dominated by the Mangaecca and Consult since the beginning of the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars.

After perusing your post and this one once again, I guess I've need to rebut your speculations on Achamian before I finish.

I'll agree that, perhaps, incorporating other sorceries into the Gnosis could be of advantage to Achamian in the future. However, I refute that Witchcraft, an Anagogic sorcery, is the one Achamian should be utilizing. I reiterate again that Ishterebinth is one of the only places I can think of to where Achamian should turn for allies. Again your argument on the Mangaecca and Nonmen Erratic Quya who might've been praticing the Gnosis for millenia remains ignorant. Achamian need not spend millenia himself elaborating and learning when Quya and Siqu of Ishterebinth have done so for him.

As well, since you are familiar with my former post, The Aspect-Emperor, then you should realize that I try to compose my speculation of intelligent reasoning and fact. I'll pose a rhetorical question to you; When has Achamian ever, through words, actions, or thoughts, implied that Zeüm would be a place that he would even think to go for refuge?

I'm going to re-read this again before I post, but I'll leave you and any other readers some food for thought, as part of your argument against Ishterebinth has given me pause.

Though I disagree; I believe Achamian could find Ishterebinth if he were inclined either through research or hints from Seswatha's memories. However, if he were not inclined to learn from Siqu, perhaps he will seek refuge in Cil-Aujas? Somewhere closer to the events and yet definitely refuge. view post


Mekeritrig posted 17 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Alas, don't take my responses or disagreements I may have towards your postings as any antagonistic exercise, I'm merely voicing what I see as conclusions that I don't so much have ought with as I could see ulterior perspectives worth viewing or considering. It's impossible to speak in absolution in relation to a future novel when we have such a limited basis to go by. We can't say for certainty what can happen, we can merely speculate. And in going through each scenario, and scrutinizing, and removing the most implausible theories, we move towards reaching a common goal, which is basically beating Aspect-Emperor to release in terms of what may come next.

Also, you have to keep in mind that you're one of the 4-5 active posters remaining, it doesn't make sense drudging up arguments from several months to a year ago from posters who may no longer frequent these forums. If I focus my discussion towards you, it's only because you're the most apt person to respond, and also because you're the most vocal of those remaining. It's nothing personal at all, it's just more logical in my mind that progressive discussion can be made through the removal of points, theories, stories and facts through the glorious medium of conversation, and even debate. The induction of facts does more to assist this than the insulting of character or argument, in my opinion.

In saying that, I'm semi-pressed for time, and will post a more thorough response at slightly latter date (hopefully tonight) and I just want to respond to this:

When has Achamian ever, through words, actions, or thoughts, implied that Zeüm would be a place that he would even think to go for refuge?


Around the same amount of times he's implied through words, actions and thoughts that he wanted to take refuge in Ishterebinth...

We have to keep in mind that prior to him actually renouncing Kellhus, his school, and his wife (maybe further back to Xinemus' death) there was no hint of a desire for defection. He was fully willing and submissive to the fact that he would, indeed act as Kellhus's teacher, bodyguard, and mentor. There was absolutely no inner monologue to suggest where he would go, what he would do, or how he would do it in the case of defection, which is why all options are plausible in the context of a such a lacking foundation of knowledge. Desperation can drive men far, and I don't find it logical that it would drive them far enough to a place where he would become more desperate, such as the north.

If the end of the Warrior-Prophet is any indication, Consult members not only travel with more brutal iterations of Sranc, but they travel with other Non-Men. A fact that Achamian, being of the Mandate is likely aware of. Include that with the terrain disabilities, and the north seems like a dead end unless he can find a safe route there, which would be impossible if the Sranc have nigh full control over it. Also...I'd like to point out that there's a high probability of some Skin-Spy variant in Ishterebinth as alluded to by Aurang in the Warrior-Prophet. A fact that moves me to curiosity.

Could the Consult have made more &quot;mistakes&quot; such as Simas without informing the others? How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta. No matter what information Moengus gleaned and shared with Maithanet, it's 10 years outdated if memory serves (that corresponds with the time he caught them.) I wonder if much has changed in that time... view post


Mekeritrig posted 18 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Ulyaoth&quot;:9wevhqex
...................
Could the Consult have made more &quot;mistakes&quot; such as Simas without informing the others? How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta. No matter what information Moengus gleaned and shared with Maithanet, it's 10 years outdated if memory serves (that corresponds with the time he caught them.) I wonder if much has changed in that time...[/quote:9wevhqex]

I certainly hope that the Consult has no more sorcerous skin-spies at its disposal. That would make all subsequent speculation pointless with regard to the actions of sorcerors. I don't think, however, we know for certain that all of the Non-Men are practising sorcerors; a skin spy could therefore infiltrate Ishterinbinth without bearing the mark. view post


Mekeritrig posted 18 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Last night, prior to anor's post, I had been in the midst of a response to your short post above when I decided that I would wait until you'd posted your actual response. However, Ulyaoth, since you've yet to post - understandably, of course - and since anor has hit upon one of the points I was going to bring up in my unfinished post, I've decided now to post ahead of you and, perhaps, rid your mind of any continuing ignorance.

I agree tenfold with you, Ulyaoth, that it's impossible to speak in absolutes regarding an unreleased piece of writing, especially when the facts that we're left with at the end of TTT are only meant to tantalize. I also agree that the best way for us as readers and speculators to infer the unrevealed future state of the Three Seas is through the removal of implausible theories. However, when a poster such as yourself refuses to disbelieve his own arguments in light of contrary, even more logical, evidence then it makes it hard to do so.

I understand that by rephrasing my question you hoped to discredit my argument. However, all you've accomplished is that now I have to explain myself.

What you, and many other posters before you, need to grasp and incorporate into your speculations is that, to the last, every single one of Cû'jara Cinmoi's human characters are exactly that; human. He's created such an ingenious world, full of so much depth and relevant history, that his characters could do nothing but live. I think it's definitely part of why it's such an entrapping story as Mr. Bakker has basically just taken human life and placed it elsewhere in different circumstances. I know for a fact that the relevant philosophical lining of the PoN is part of what trapped myself. It's inspired me to aspire to writing equally as intriguing and relevant fantasy or science fiction during my lifetime - quite a task.

Throughout the events of the First Holy War we experience many different characters as they work their way through their lives. Each has distinct traits, personalities, habits, and thoughts. They are unique; as we humans are in life.

I cannot count the number of times that through Achamian we've experienced something of Eärwa's past. In fact it's mostly through Achamian, aside from TTT Glossary, that we have any indication of history preceding the First Apocalypse at all; specifically, Nonmen culture.

Now what I meant when I posed the question to you is that not once throughout Achamian's experience do we read of Zeüm; in his words, actions, or thoughts. However, isn't it likely, based on his many words and thoughts, that Achamian have some affinity for Nonmen? Especially ones who, post-disturbance by Achamian's presence and his tale of Three Seas events, would be most adamant in aiding in the destruction of the Consult and Inchoroi. It's even likely that being the ancients they are, Achamian could probably even relate better to the Nonmen than to other humans; aside from the Mandate.

Furthermore, your following points are still ignorant.

As anor has already pointed out not all the Nonmen of Ishterebinth are practicing sorcerers. Despite the transcendentalism of the Nonmen caste system, there are likely even, aside from the Quya, many Ishroi remaining. Again, I'll reiterate your need to read things more carefully. Had you paid heed to one of Mr. Bakker's quotes in my preceeding posts you wouldn't have made this point at all:

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.


Your second, and perhaps even more ignorant point for one who has again obviously thoroughly read the books, is that the North is untraversable.

Kellhus himself, alongside worldborn men, travelled from Ishuäl to the Three Seas escaping Cet'ingira, though likely Mekeritrig let Kellhus go, and at least a hundred Sranc. True, Kellhus could rely on his preternatural reflexes and intelligence where Achamian cannot, if Ishterebinth is even where he were inclined to go. However, I would think Achamian's sorcery more than a match for Kellhus's initial obstacles of travel; again, aside from Cet'ingira.

My second, and definitely more damaging point, is that there is a route across the Istyuli Plains. Every year, as made known by Leweth, a caravan travels from Galeoth to Atrithau through Sakarpus. If set caravan of Galeoth can survive the circuit, hounded by Sranc as you'd say, then I'm sure Achamian, a sorcerer and experienced spy, could manage equally as fine, at least until Atrithau.

Again, this is not what I believe will happen; just that it's plausible if Achamian were inclined. I only offered Ishterebinth as the most logical and strategic refuge yeilding the most to Achamian knowledge and ally-wise. Of course, I also offer it now as a more intelligent and logical alternative to Zeüm or &quot;the west.&quot; view post


Mekeritrig posted 18 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Harrol, Moderator

I tend to agree with Akka going to a non-man stronghold for awhile. Yet one thought is in one of his writitngs he states fear of being hunted for what he is writing. This implies to me a human audience with means for Kellhus to persecute him. I am open to have of miss read this but it appears to imply a return to humanity. view post


Mekeritrig posted 19 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Ulyaoth, Commoner

Madness, the alacrity, and absolution with which you not only assume superiority in knowledge, but ignorance and sheer idiocy with my commentary is somewhat irksome and entirely unneeded. You misunderstand both the reasoning behind my contention, and the underlying fact that I'm neither stating or implying that I am right, and you are wrong. This is a series of books from an author that adheres to neither convention, or predictability in execution. For this reason alone, I thought it wiser to present alternatives, than to assert absolutions in path, which, if you've noticed, is all I've done.

However, when a poster such as yourself refuses to disbelieve his own arguments in light of contrary, even more logical, evidence then it makes it hard to do so.


The &quot;logic&quot; with which I view the series in its progression is not on the basis of what would be more logical to the reader, or for the story, but what would be logical to the character. For clarification, I wholly agree that going to Ishterebinth over the west, elaborating on the Gnosis over witchcraft, etc are more logical decisions in the context of the stories progression to a satisfactory (read: happy) ending, but are they what Achamian would think? I have doubts of this for reasons stated above, and if I voice them, it's not because I disagree with you, or think the alternative being offered is more right than yours (this is a discussion, not a competition), but because all of the decisions, story archs, &quot;twists,&quot; and modes of progression in the entirety of the Prince of Nothing have completely coincided with established traits of the characters morales, feelings, past, and knowledge, as opposed to what would be more logical to us at that moment.

If only singular perspectives are articulated, then other points and angles of progression are thereafter ignored. If the book operated by our logic as opposed to that of the characters, Achamian would have never left Xinemus, Xinemus would have never went to look for Achamian, Proyas would have been open to the concept of making peacee with Achamian, Cnaiur would have never taught Kellhus war, Esmenet would have went to Achamian as soon as he came back, and Conphas would have killed Cnaiur the moment after he caught him.

I understand that by rephrasing my question you hoped to discredit my argument.


Ugh. No. I did not rephrase your question, I used the deceptive logic with which you attempted to trap a singular, and absolute conclusion on yourself. I technically answered the question posed, actually. That answer being that never in any of Achamian's ruminations - internal or otherwise - did he hint to wanting to traverse through Zeum, or Ishterebinth. We have no basis in knowing where he would go outside of speculatory evidence, as he's given nothing in the way of hints as to a destination, or even a goal.

What you, and many other posters before you, need to grasp and incorporate into your speculations is that, to the last, every single one of Cû'jara Cinmoi's human characters are exactly that; human.


It takes a lot of presumption to even remotely assume that any of us have not factored this into our assessments. It's precisely because he is human that I say it could be just as plausible that he won't go to the north. He fears the Consult, and has knowledge of their activities (specifically in their growing power) that few in the Three Seas can match, add this to the fact (which I earlier iterated), that Ishterebinth is surrounded by an entire mountain range which Achamian likely lacks the equipment or capability to scale, and you have the reason of human restriction and trepidation to not disprove that he would go there, but to merely temper the fortitude of your conclusion with a slither of doubt that perhaps it's not feasible for him to.

However, isn't it likely, based on his many words and thoughts, that Achamian have some affinity for Nonmen?


I've seen no evidence of this. Knowing of Non-Men, and knowing something of their culture doesn't suddenly develop adoration or favoritism.

Again, I'll reiterate your need to read things more carefully. Had you paid heed to one of Mr. Bakker's quotes in my preceeding posts you wouldn't have made this point at all:


I despise how you assume that just because the conclusions reached don't coincide with your own, that they're somehow ignorant, and a pure omission of what you see as fact, even when fact is not at all present. The quote you give does in no manner say that some Non-Men aren't sorcerers, it merely says that the techniques that they're attempting aren't solely utilizing sorcery. I suppose I'm missing a sentence in hidden text, though, mayhaps I need to read more carefully.

Your second, and perhaps even more ignorant point for one who has again obviously thoroughly read the books, is that the North is untraversable.


Not once did I state this. If you're going to be insulting, at least focus the blunt of your disrespect to commentary I've actually made. It's Ishterebinth that I very clearly stated for the reason of positioning that would be hard - if not impossible - to get to, not the North in its entirety. At most, I've stated that the north was dangerous, and that Achamian - much more so than Kellhus - was aware of these dangers, and would be loath to indulge them.

My second, and definitely more damaging point, is that there is a route across the Istyuli Plains. Every year, as made known by Leweth, a caravan travels from Galeoth to Atrithau through Sakarpus. If set caravan of Galeoth can survive the circuit, hounded by Sranc as you'd say, then I'm sure Achamian, a sorcerer and experienced spy, could manage equally as fine, at least until Atrithau.


...I already know this. Would you please do me a favor, and consult the back of the books for a map? After doing this, I want you to place one finger on Ishterebinth, and another on Atrithau, and notice not only the obstacles that are in Achamian's path to get there, but the rather considerable gap between your two fingers that represents land that Achamian will have to travel through. After doing this, I want you to consider the given evidence that Sranc, and consult parties are more numerous beyond Atrithau (which is land that they own and traverse at leisure). I also want you to notice the entire mountain range that ostracizes Ishterebinth from the rest of the world.

I do not think sorcery is powerful enough to destroy mountains. And if he goes AROUND, and attempts to cross the sea of Neleost, he will be in Golgotterath's shadow. Assuming Achamian even KNOWS where Ishterebinth is, I'm pretty sure one glance at a map would be apt to sober him to the realization that attempting to go there is nigh suicidal.

Once again, despite your claims of my ineptitude, I suggest you read my posts more carefully before seeking to correct me, quote by quote.


These &quot;claims&quot; don't exist. Not once have I implied, referred, hinted to, or stated that you were inept.

You, on one hand, are the very embodiment of Kellhus's subjects; even knowing what he is, as an objective observer of a third person narrative. It seems to me that you think he can do no wrong as he seems to possess everyone eventually.


Well...look at the Holy War. Who he doesn't possess, he manipulates to the point where they are irrelevant just as he did with Conphas and Cnaiur. I'm not saying that he can do no wrong...but I honestly don't see any evidence suggesting that the Mandate is not beyond his cunning, especially now that he wields absolute power in terms of both religious, and political control. He's beyond a mere king, and the Quorum will have to deal with him as such, this is precisely why he attacked Shimeh before they arrived, and they will have to act accordingly. Entreating him not as an inferior, but as a superior, and considering that all men of rank now look to Kellhus in the same way, so will they. The only person that could potentially not fall susceptible to Kellhus that I've seen is Iyokus. Though I think that Esmenet may become resilient to him eventually, but that's a speculation for another thread.

He will be quite less exceptional once he's fully engulfed by the madness of emotion.


I don't know if he's emotional or not. I think Kellhus's transformation can be described as an epiphany as much as anything else. He seems to possess the same amorality and sociopathic disregard for feeling and the morale quandry brought forth by manipulation, but I think his change came from the fact that he now believes that there are forces beyond this world, and beyond his senses. Forces that control, and that auger both prophecy, and his ascension, and such a belief wholly contradicts logic, and it's this belief and conviction that set him aside from Moengus, who maintained an agnostic perception of The God, whereas Kellhus is not only willing to accept its existence, but he also seems willing to submit to it.

Whether he's amoral or not, and whether he lied before or not, I think it stands to reason that Kellhus is authentically a prophet. He did, afterall have a vision about Serwe's death and the events that transpired towards the end 200-300 pages before it actually occurred.

There seems to be a concensus between Schools that wizards and witches are to be hunted to extermination. This, to me, seems wise given that aside from the Imperial Saik the Schools remain indifferent towards the religious and secular powers of the Three Seas, and defections of members to such institutions could prove disastrous. This was the only reason I included the Mysunsai in hunt speculations as they likely would honor set concensus.


I wholly see your perspective, but please note that the only reason why I don't share it is because as of now, we are entirely blind as to how the schools do, and will view Kellhus, and what power Kellhus will seek to subvert over the schools in his current position. If the Mandate believes he is the Harbringer, and something remarkable altogether, that could actually thwart the second apocalypse (just as Achamian did), I wouldn't be at all surprised if they became to Kellhus what the Imperial Saik is to the Nansur Emperor. If this occurs, the other schools will most definitely become irrelevant.

And this would give Kellhus even further clout in dealing with sorcerers. Also...since he's Aspect Emperor, and basically the de facto overlord of Conriya, Ce Tydon, Galeoth, all of Kian, and soon to be every existent Inrithi; he could threaten servitude under the auspices of an army arrayed with Chorae bowmen...This threat, I would think, could bring very many schools to servitude. It's not like his promise to &quot;overturn the old rules&quot; doesn't come with some sense that he can't enforce it.

And again, I reference Achamian's monologue. He did not seem to be hunted, and his fear didn't seem to be other sorcerers so much as it seemed to be heresy against a ruler with servants that look at his absolution in power.

As for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, again at the end of the First Holy War, neither believe Kellhus to be a prophet.


I'm uncertain as to how the Scarlet Spires will, or did react. We know only that Eleazaras believed him to be a prophet, and that the only reason that Nautzera and the remaining members of the Mandate did not is because they had yet to meet him.

In fact, though the Mandate must now treat with Kellhus instead of seizing him, they remain convinced that they will be in control of his actions towards the Consult.


Again, I cite the fact that neither have they met him, nor do we know the contents of their meeting with him, or their reactions to it...

The Scarlet Spires on the other hand, though severely weakened, have a Grandmaster who just plain doesn't believe in Kellhus and has a major grudge against Achamian.


I'm not sure about this one. I've always found Iyokus's quary with Achamian to be more on the basis of respect, and honor more so than a merely petty grudge. The grudge was more or less solely on Achamian's end. If Iyokus had a grudge, I'd have imagined he'd have sent more than one Ciphrang, and would have asked him to kill him. But again, we have to keep in mind that Iyokus, as intelligent, and unlikely to submit to Kellhus as he may be, has yet to meet him at all. Therefore the results of said meeting, though assumed on the basis of probables can not be conclusive...

I think you've mistaken the aim of my posts here on the Three Seas forum. Other than quell any misconceptions of fact and speculation, my ultimate goal is to see if, either individually - nigh impossible - or collectively with other posters, the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor can be discerned now.


I understand your aim, and I share it, and would love to indulge it in a more...appropriate thread, which begs the question...why was it deleted?

This is another reason why I didn't respond to your arguments for Achamian not being alone against the Consult. In my former post I articulate that bar Consult move in force - which would include Sranc attacking populated Three Seas - Achamian is solely bent towards Consult defeat.


...Why do you think that the Mandate won't be? Why do you think that Kellhus isn't focusing on this? Throughout the entirety of the book, his intentions on the matter remain very largely unclear, but if he is focused on thwarting a Consult attack, I'd imagine he would take a grave many precautions to make sure that everyone in his jurisdiction is prepared by using the entirety of his given resources to the height of their advantages; a process that could perceivably take a long time.

And it's also unclear as to whether or not Achamian himself will focus on the Consult. I wonder to what extent he renounced his school...if he did so fully, then that would also imply that he renounced their mission.

The negation of the Uroborian Circle by Achamian's Wathi Doll was exceptionally improvised on Achamian's part. It in no way implies, as you seem to believe, that Witchcraft possesses negating properties of sorcery as does, once again, the Aporos


I didn't mean negation in the same sense as the Aporos. Perhaps an effective deviation would be a more adequate terminology. The Wathi Dolls are used as remote assassins, and since controlling them neither scars the user with the Mark, nor does it register as an actual cant, I see uses in this that could assist Achamian...

I'm still quite interested in Witchcraft. While it does have roots in Anagogic sorcery, its utilization seems to be more in line with Voodoo, than the common sorcery that we see practiced. By calling it Anagogic, I get the sense that we underestimate its currently unknown capabilities.

However, I refute that Witchcraft, an Anagogic sorcery, is the one Achamian should be utilizing. I reiterate again that Ishterebinth is one of the only places I can think of to where Achamian should turn for allies. Again your argument on the Mangaecca and Nonmen Erratic Quya who might've been praticing the Gnosis for millenia remains ignorant. Achamian need not spend millenia himself elaborating and learning when Quya and Siqu of Ishterebinth have done so for him.


I agree with your latter point, though I don't see how is it ignorant to state that they might be better sorcerers due to the fact that they've had more experience practicing it.

However, if he were not inclined to learn from Siqu, perhaps he will seek refuge in Cil-Aujas?


I don't see why he would. From my understanding, Non-Men are no longer present there. view post


Mekeritrig posted 19 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Warrior-Poet, Moderator

I understand your aim, and I share it, and would love to indulge it in a more...appropriate thread, which begs the question...why was it deleted?


As Im more of a reader than poster when it comes to this particular part of the forum I will not comment as of yet on your speculations however I will answer your question as to the deletion of The Aspect-Emperor thread, the forum as you may or may not know has had spam problems in recents months(however it is under good control now), as one of my fellow moderators was cleaning out spam from the TfT forum the topic was accidently deleted, we apologize for this accident but to keep this board going the spam must be destroyed so accidents are bound to happen. I was under the impression that the topic was going to recreated however I see that this has not happened so I will now create the topic again in hopes that you two and fellow posters such as anor will again post your speculations in the thread, I understand if you choose not to do so or may not be able to repost your exact ideas but I encourage you to do so. view post


Mekeritrig posted 22 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by dalamar the dark, Commoner

wow, calm down people, but, i agree with Ulyaoth, Achamian will probably not be hunted, simply because of lack of hunters, and he will probably go west, as it is the only logical course of action i can come up with...why go towards an enemy and danger to search for something you might not be able to find? view post


Mekeritrig posted 23 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

It is after quite the weekend that I return to the board and find your post, Ulyaoth, and your support post of Mr. Dalamar's.

I started writing a reply to your above post friday, Ulyaoth, and, completely contrary to my character, I stopped midsentence and closed the window because I just couldn't continue writing. I'd like to express my complete aggravation at having to respond to a post that, instead of being written, is just a collection of small rebuttals to disagreeable points. Since I refuse to take your posts apart quote by quote in order to disprove your theories I am once again going to try a response without a repeat of friday.

Unfortunately, to begin this post I feel the need to respond to the allegations towards my character.

I think you need to understand a few things about myself. As I've reiterated several times in the past posts on this board, my aim, however impossible it may be, is to try and discern the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor through fact and intelligent reasoning.

Now, once again however impossible that may be, if you know another way to achieve my aim besides disproving implausible theories through the introduction of contrary evidence or by supporting plausible theories by providing evidence then, please, enlighten me. I am not trying to state I am right; merely trying to disprove a theory I in no way indulge due to lack of evidence or intelligent reasoning and offer an alternative. Of course I am trying to prove you wrong. I'm sorry if you take offense to the tone of my writing.

Furthermore, I do not believe that it's logical for a series or book to lead to a happy conclusion. You are discussing a series of books with a man, myself, who was entirely resigned to the misconception that the PoN was the story; until the conclusion of my second full round of reading. It's a major reason why I believe Cû'jara Cinmoi left no loose threads in the PoN itself just many possible futures. I loved the series even then, ignorant of it's future. At the time, I thought it was beautiful that Mr. Bakker could capture a moment of an existence without, per say, a beginning or end as there is none in life.

Though I entirely dislike the use of quotes as something to pick at, I may be forced to as I'll reiterate again the aggravation of having to reply to a person who writes so. I only mention this as I have to, for sake of sheer disbelief, quote you.

The &quot;logic&quot; with which I view the series in its progression is not on the basis of what would be more logical to the reader, or for the story, but what would be logical to the character . . . all of the decisions, story archs, &quot;twists,&quot; and modes of progression in the entirety of the Prince of Nothing have completely coincided with established traits of the characters morales, feelings, past, and knowledge, as opposed to what would be more logical to us at that moment.


What posts are you responding to? I believe, quite correctly, that I have done absolutly nothing but support the same. Have I not stressed that in a world as complete and real as Cû'jara Cinmoi's that the characters actions become more their own and less the writer's initial plan and ideas.

I guess this leads into what will begin my actual response to you.

As well, I guess I cannot reiterate enough the aggravation of wanting to respond to this post. I'm sorry that I've angered you to the point that you can't write an entire articulate and intelligent post.

Anyhow, why are you so convinced that Achamian fears the Consult? I mean you've, again obviously, thoroughly read the series. Have you remained completely ignorant of the changes throughout the books? This is why I continuely refer to your arguments as ignorant. It's not that you are personally ignorant; that is to say unlearned. Just that you are continually repeating arguments with basis ignorant of fact. I'd, as well, like to stress at this point that when I say fact I mean precisely that. Something that has either been stated by Cû'jara Cinmoi or that can be found in the books.

I will concede that the Drusas Achamian that we've come to know throughout the PoN was a fearful man. I'll refer to the overwhelming anxiety we experience through Achamian when he's presented with proof auguring the apocalypse at the end of The Darkness That Comes Before. I might add that any person might be prone to that same fearfulness when presented with an apocalypse.

I am in complete awe when it comes to the diligence and meticulous ingenious of Mr. Bakker's writing. As I've said before, the small sliver of Cû'jara Cinmoi's world that he's allowed us to experience is more than enough to become engulfed in. However, even more inspiring to myself, is the fact that Mr. Bakker wrote the PoN series to serve as a revelent and indepth history for his true story; the Second Apocalypse.

To that end, the characters we've experienced throughout the First Holy War have been whittled and hewed by events in order to slowly fill the space Cû'jara Cinmoi has prepared for them. Hense why I am constantly refering to the end of TTT as it's the closest point of reference to the characters future selves.

In light of the above, at the end of TTT I don't believe Achamian fears the Consult as he once did. However, I'm starting to understand that Achamian's attitude towards the Consult is mute point. I believe that our difference of opinion lies once again in your ignorance of fact.

Fact: At the end of TTT, Achamian has renounced everything and everyone important to him except Seswatha.

If you'd like proof and references I can provide, however, as I believe you know them anyways I'll just continue on.

My proposition of Achamian journeying to Ishterebinth depends on the basis that he will utilize his time and energy bent solely towards Consult defeat.

In fact, just to quash your allegation of my speaking in absolutes, I've always maintained that my reasons and theories were based on Achamian's inclination. If he were inclined to go to Ishterebinth.

If Achamian is bent solely towards Consult defeat, which I believe he is in light of no more intelligent reasoning or contrary evidence, what better place, again I reiterate, for allies and power towards that end than Ishterebinth?

As well, you mistook my suggestion of Cil-Aujas. I only presented the idea of Achamian going there, not to learn from Nonmen, but as a place where he could be assured refuge within proximity to the Three Seas if my Ishterebinth speculations indeed prove false; which they very well could.

Interestingly enough, I think it more likely that the Consult will use Cil-Aujas as a base within the Three Seas than Achamian. Doubtful that Kellhus would have learnt of the Mansion's existence.

I know this is, I think, the fourth time I've said this but I cannot stand the way you've written this post. It makes it extremely - though no doubt you care not - aggravating to try and respond in my usual manner of writing.

I'm trying to find all references to Achamian so I can move on to some of your alternative rebuttals, however, it's proving difficult.

I understand that Achamian refers to fear of heresy and subsequent summary execution based on what he writes in his compendium. I also see the reasoning behind your argument against the Schools hunting Achamian in Kellhus's new world order, whether I disagree with it or not. However, I'll reiterate again my belief that the Three Seas is not a safe place for Achamian to be.

Following all Achamian's renunciations isn't it likely, that in years to come, all of Kellhus's subjects will know the stories surrounding Kellhus's ascension to power and perhaps, though I disbelieve the reality of it, prophecy? Furthermore, isn't it likely that despite whatever grand proclaimation Kellhus may make against Achamian's death that some bloodthirsty fanatic, even many bloodthirsty fanatics, knowing the facts of set stories would try and kill Achamian believing that they'd eliminated a blight against their beloved Warrior-Prophet?

The quote from the end scene of TTT goes as follows:

The Men of the Tusk stared at him dumbstruck, their outrage as bright as sparks in their eyes.


I interpreted the above quote and surrounding passage as amazement from Achamian that he isn't torn to pieces there and then.

I don't really know if I've caught all your references to Achamian, however, I feel my argument slowing down here so I'm going to just move on to tidbits of anything as I read 'em. Actually, though I hate to do this, it's the only quick way to respond to the rest of your post so I'm going to resort to quoting you.

Knowing of Nonmen and knowing something of their culture doesn't suddenly develop adoration or favoritism.


Quite true. On the flipside we know Achamian. He is a student of logic and sorcery. He definitely respects opposition towards the Consult. As well, he is a student of history and therefore, unlike the rest of humankind in Eärwa, knows that the Nonmen nations were old and vast long before the Breaking of the Gates. Furthermore, he knows the invaluable aid that Nonmen Siqu and Quya provided Men in the building of the Norsirai's own nations. In specific, the tutelage of the Gnosis. Once again I'll reiterate, I'll bet that Achamian could relate much better to Nonmen than he can to humankind, aside from the Mandate.

The quote you give does in no manner say that some Non-Men aren't sorcerers, it merely says that the techniques that they're attempting aren't solely utilizing sorcery


I wasn't trying to state that the Nonmen aren't sorcerers; likely the majority of them are practicing sorcerers. I was trying to, and did, state that all Nonmen aren't sorcerers. Which elminated any of your speculation on how the Consult would have to fashion another skin-spy anomoly in order to infiltrate Ishterebinth, as you tried stating here:

I'd like to point out that there's a high probability of some Skin-Spy variant in Ishterebinth as alluded to by Aurang in the Warrior-Prophet. A fact that moves me to curiosity . . . How else could Aurang have spies in a place presumably populated only by sorcery practicing Non-Men? The lack of the mark should be able to snuff out most spies in their presence...unless they actually did find a way to reproduce Skin Spies with souls or at least convincingly reproduce the mark of the Onta.


On the same line of thought, the spy in Ishterebinth is likely a Nonmen Erratic occupying a position of, at least, some power. It would be impossible to introduce a skin-spy into Ishterebinth due to the fact that all living Nonmen are likely known to each other. I mean, they are a relatively small population of species who've survived, in a fashion, a couple millennia together. I think a Nonman who just showed up in Ishterebinth one day would raise some highly damaging questions.

Whether he's amoral or not, and whether he lied before or not, I think it stands to reason that Kellhus is authentically a prophet. He did, afterall have a vision about Serwe's death and the events that transpired towards the end 200-300 pages before it actually occurred.


Wrong. As The Warrior-Prophet is all about Kellhus's trial in the domination of Holy War, the novel in which he experiences the most difficulties in dominating his circumstances, as Dûnyain he walks a very thin line; in his own words:

Some destinations couldn't be grasped in advance. Some paths had to be walked to be known. Risked.


The &quot;vision&quot; your speaking of is no vision at all. Kellhus is merely meditating on the overwhelming circumstances presented to him; the corresponding revelation, I guess I have to say I believe, was just the nearly impossible path he sets for himself knowing that the possibility of success outweighed and would subsequently eliminate any possible negatives.

I'll refer to our experience through Cnaiür's eyes near the finale of The Warrior-Prophet. After Kellhus's cryptic words on the ruined heights of Citadel, Cnaiür finds himself understanding the Dûnyain's plan.

Everything, Cnaiür realized had transpired according to the Dûnyain's mad gambit . . . knowing that if he survived... The secret of battle!


The secret of battle being, as we learn at the battle of Anwurat under the Scylvendi's tutelage of war, conviction. As Achamian describes to Nautzera at the beginning of TTT:

After he was freed, even the most embittered of the Orthodox fell to their knees before him . . . He came upon them like a fever after that. Suddenly the Holy War found itself unified as never before . . . And then they marched. Such a sight, Nautzera! As great and terrible as anything in our Dreams. Starved. Sick. They shambled from the gates - dead men moved to war . . . The impossible. They won the field. They couldn't be stopped!


Just reading through the rest of your post here, though there are things I'd like to respond to, there's nothing that incites me enough to continue writing right now. I hope anyone reading enjoyed this post though I'm not entirely happy with it. As I try to aspire to intriguing writing which flows and follows a somewhat linear movement of thought, I can't really condone what I've written here.

As well, Ulyaoth, despite whatever attitude you think I adopt in my writing or towards you, I'd like you to know at least that I enjoy writing opposite someone as engaged as yourself. view post


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