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The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) posted 01 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) by Callan S., Auditor

I think, assuming Akka saying those with the judging eye do not give birth to live young is not simply a comforting lie, that the no-god will return, and at this point, when all other births are born still, Mimara will give birth - and the baby will be alive! Somehow the inversion from the no god will mean she gives birth to a live baby?

What sort of baby? <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> I dunno? view post


The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) posted 01 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) by Madness, Peralogue

Lol, a semi-active topic.

I'm definitely in the &quot;Dunyain did it themselves&quot; camp. It was my first and most enduring thought after reading the end of WLW. Though, its quite possible that Kellhus did go to see the Dunyain. Perhaps, warned them to seclude themselves further. Especially as Achamian's path seems ultimately conditioned.

Kellhus is a &quot;God,&quot; testing his subjects, in various ways. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 04 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;sneroplex&quot;:wp45atst
I'm assuming the assassin that killed Maithanet was the white luck warrior. Maithanet didn't do anything about it because he's Dunyain and thinks he's all badass with that 'what comes before determines what comes after' BS. The white-luck killed him because 'what comes after determines what comes before,' Maitha was already dead and that's why it was so easy for him to just walk up and casually stick a knife in his throat. Yatwer is at work.[/quote:wp45atst]

I don't have the book with me, but I seem to remember that scene explicitly refers to the assassin as the person hired by Esmenet. But you may be right. The White Luck is just too mysterious. In fact, given how little we know of this being and how few glimpses we get of him, it might be said that the title of this book is really very badly chosen. He's almost as big of a mystery as the No-God.

Quote: &quot;Callan S.&quot;:wp45atst
Because Kellhus manipulated them to screw up. So as to enable the taboo breaking 'We will eat sranc' command to be adopted while, in defeat, the armies collective mental guard is down.[/quote:wp45atst]

I doubt it. If anything, losing one army makes it less compelling (fewer mouths to feed, more forage to go around). Eating Sranc is just a logistic necessity. But it is interesting to speculate on what will happen to those who do. We now finally know what &quot;chanv&quot; is -- dead Nonman. It makes those who eat it more Nonman-like. A parallel with Sranc is possible. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 08 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

I'm not sure chanv has been revealed, explicitly, has it? It sounds plausible, but I don't think it's been revealed? Personally my theory is that one of the nonmen who bared their neck to the human invasion was instead captured and if chanv is a nonmen body product, it's not from dead nonman but from his blood. They have a nonmen on tap somewhere. Vampiric, eh?

Eating Sranc is just a logistic necessity

It's easy to think that from the safety of a readers POV. I was thinking earlier on why didn't they eat the sranc - I thought maybe sranc are designed to be poisonous to eat, or become poisonous on death.

But remember, a huge theme in the books is cultural taboo. If it is taboo to eat sranc, it's not like they just say &quot;oh, it's logistically necessary, so well skip that taboo&quot;. I mean, that's what we do in roleplay sessions sometimes - have our character act like a perfectly logical robot who has no qualms about taking any means necessary (indeed, I often think this was an inspiration for Kellhus, from Scott's D&amp;D days). But as easy as it is to say an imaginary character does it, to actually do the thing - with your own mouth?

However, the effects on the army from eating sranc given they are derived from nonmen, yeah, that's interesting speculation to bring up! I had only thought of forfilling the need to feed, not any sort of effect beyond that. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 08 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Athjeari, Peralogue

I had thought it was fairly easy to determine that the assassin Esmenet hired was in fact the White Luck Warrior. The way the assassins behavior and actions were described, it seemed like it was the White Luck to me anyhow (granted, I think it shows the White Luck killing the original, intended assassin). Esmi has absolutely no idea of course, but that's kind of the point. The White Luck is not confined to the principle of before and after rather he sees the continuous stream of time. Events that take place after are apparent to him in the before.

IIRC, nobody said anything about the Southern King being a competent battle-commander. If anything, I think it was shown that he was an inferior commander because of the choices being made. Not to mention the stress that was being put on them from constantly having to be on guard. Most of the competent battle-commanders from the South were probably killed during the First Holy War (from the Prince of Nothing).

I don't think it's certain that Chanv is burnt Nonmen either. It's referred to as Qirri (sp?) in the book, where do you make the connection to Chanv? Where would Iyokus obtain such a supply of burnt Nonmen? I think it's a bit different.

You seem to try and attribute full Dunyain abilities to half Dunyain Maithanet too. He's not as powerful as Kellhus, and he readily admits this at times.

The idea of eating the Sranc could be very interesting, but I don't think we have any reason to believe the meat will do anything but offer sustenance. They'll be eating actual meat, not ash. That may be a determining factor on the effectiveness of any power within the meat/body of the Sranc/Nonmen. view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 11 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Karol, Commoner

Just wanted to say I finished The White Luck Warrior yesterday and... well, I'm regretting reading it. Because now I have to wait until The Unholy Consult for my questions to be answered. And then I have to wait for the FINAL trilogy! I am going to be reading this series into my thirties. It is amazingly frustrating.

I've started re-reading The Prince of Nothing on Kindle but it's really, REALLY badly formatted. I am almost tempted to go and buy the paperback again... almost, but not quite. I have struggled through badly formatted Kindle books before and I will struggle once again!

I can't wait for the third book to be released but I suspect I'll be waiting until 2013! view post


Slog of Slogs, Boys! posted 15 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Slog of Slogs, Boys! by Callan S., Auditor

I'm not sure weve seen much of the white luck warrior. In fact I rather feel that each book doesn't actually cover it's subject - I felt there was more judging eye action in white luck warrior than in the judging eye, for example. In fact I'd actually say that in each book - more thousandfold thought in judging eye, more warrior prophet in thousand fold thought. Not sure about TDTCB - that's kinda everywhere! Anyway, it seems the book after that covers the book before, to me!

Karol, how do they stuff up the formatting?

And you could go and harass Scott on his blog, to get the book out sooner &gt;:) view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 24 August 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Truth Shines, Candidate

Not sure if this is the right place to put this topic, but eh, since the admins are not here...

Anyway. I just finished reading Dune (I know I know what kind of terrible person I am that I've never read Dune before... <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> ). I am aware that there are a few sequels to this so my opinion might change after I read those. But at least so far, it is interesting to compare Paul Atreides to our favorite Dunyain.

I become interested in this because I seem to remember reading some review of The Prince of Nothing on the internets somewhere that compares this work to Dune. So far, I must say PON kicks Dune's ass all the way to Sunday. Paul Atreides is like a Saturday morning cartoon version of Anasurimbor Kellhus <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> Sure there are some parallels to the premonitions thing, but Paul's visions are all confused and semi-mystical, which is no match against the elegance and might of the Probability Trance. And if you compare the way he rose to become the leader of the Fremen to the way Kellhus rose to become the warrior prophet, well, there's just no comparison. Paul's rise seems very mechanical and matter-of-fact. It makes sense so far as the story goes -- the planted prophecy, the martial arts prowess, the psychic voodoo and all that do come together for the story to be believable. But in PON, we are not just told there are these things -- Bakker actually shows how the prophecy, the martial arts, and particularly the psychological (not psychic) voodoo works. The mesmerizing sermons, the cannily crafted fireside chats, the subtle manipulations, the horrifying truths... It's dazzling art, glory, spectacle. It's telling that in Dune Paul's big showdowns are physical fights (two rather poorly described knife fights), whereas in PON Kellhus' crowning moment (at least in my mind) is a breathtaking &quot;talking scene&quot; where, after he has been recognized as a prophet, he humiliates Conphas and kicks him out of the Holy War. It shows just how much deeper, psychologically and philosophically, PON is relative to Dune.

Paul and Dune are really like an amateur version, or perhaps a very very very early draft of PON -- a set of interesting ideas, but poorly executed and only thought out in a very shallow fashion. view post


The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) posted 08 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]The White-Luck Warrior Conclusion (SPOILERS) by Callan S., Auditor

Quote: &quot;Madness&quot;:3sm8gou6
Kellhus is a &quot;God,&quot; testing his subjects, in various ways.[/quote:3sm8gou6]
Sounds more like a scientist testing rats in a maze, to me. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 08 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Callan S., Auditor

I'd like to look at the first draft of TDTCB, the one that got rejected for printed and Scott rewrote latter on.

Evolution takes time. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 08 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Truth Shines, Candidate

Right now I'm half way through &quot;Dune Messiah,&quot; the second book in the Dune series. Honestly I have not become more impressed. Just to take one example, here's a passage. It's quoting from &quot;the key reminder from the Bene Gesserit Creed.&quot; The Bene Gesserit is the equivalent of the Dunyain -- a sect that uses mental and physical training and multi-generation selective breeding in order to create a super-human. Now, keep in mind the gloriously elegant Dunyain principle -- &quot;That which comes before determines that which comes after&quot; -- and get a load of this clumsy mumbo jumbo:

&quot;Before us, all methods of learning were tainted by instinct. We learned how to learn. Before us, instinct-ridden researchers possessed a limited attention span -- often no longer than a single lifetime. Projects stretching across fifty or more lifetimes never occurred to them. The concept of total muscle/nerve training had not entered awareness.&quot;

Upon reading this, it literally had me howling with laughter. <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D -->

If Dune had been written after PON, I'd say it's a very sorry, poor imitation. As it is, I can only say Bakker is showing Frank Herbert what to do with this type of material, because Herbert obviously doesn't have much of a clue. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 09 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Callan S., Auditor

I think I get your point, but it seems a bit harsh? It's like pointing and laughing at an amphibian as it crawls across the mud, because a cheetah is much faster and sleeker. Yet the cheetah was ultimately derived from the amphibian. Someone has to make the first, clumsy steps - often they are more daring than those we fancy the superior who come after.

Humans have a certain inclination for entertaining superiority, so hey, lets entertain some superiority over dune, cool. But you've got to have some respect for the balls it takes to write at all? Assuming the author cares if someone might howl with laughter at what you write (if not, not).

Oh, and I should admit, I haven't read dune, either. view post


No-God theory, or another theory posted 11 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by Callan S., Auditor

How could a god not hunger with these great meal deals at Mc Donalds!!!1!

Sorry, quiet forum, couldn't resist! view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 11 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Truth Shines, Candidate

Point taken. Still, I'm puzzled why Dune is so highly regarded (unlike, say, Lord of the Rings). On a recent edition, a blurb on the cover says &quot;Science Fiction's Supreme Masterpiece.&quot; A movie (not so well received) has been made based on it. It's said to have sold for more than 10 million copies. Based on what I have read (I've finished the first two, starting on the third), I just don't understand. It's just not very good writing. Nevertheless it does have good ideas, and it's good that someone like Bakker can come along and resurrect them and put them to good use. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 12 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Athjeari, Peralogue

I read Dune for the first time within the last year, and I have to say that I can identify with what you're talking about regarding the presentation of some ideas.

However, I've seen a lot of people categorize Dune as a ecological Sci-Fi novel. Obviously a lot of focus of the book was the use/misuse of the planet and how that affected the populations living on Arrakis. I realize this doesn't represent the entirety of the novel, but it was a fairly large part of it. Bakker doesn't worry about stuff like that. Also, keep in mind when Dune was first published, back in 1965. The genre was quite different back then, Dune was something new and special.

I also remember reading, at some point, on Bakker's blog, or during an interview that the Dune series was one of the most mind-blowing reading experiences Scott has ever had (I believe he says he was fairly young when he read them). Scott has also said he doesn't have a creative bone in his body, and so borrows from favorites. Clearly, he has borrowed from Herbert to some extent, but I'd also agree that Bakker's much more entertaining and &quot;colourful&quot; to read than Herbert.

I haven't actually been able to finish reading Dune Messiah, the story doesn't go anywhere at times. I might still finish it at some point, but Dune Messiah is not high on my immediate reading list.

Dune is certainly worth reading, I personally kind of like the movie too (it's a bit odd and crazy but that's David Lynch for you), the way Herbert introduces the Fremen was fantastic and full of intrigue and mystery. I also like how he incorporates Spice in so many cool ways. All in all, Dune is certainly a classic that is worth reading.

Personally, I think Bakker is a much better read, but hey it's like...my opinion, man. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 13 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Truth Shines, Candidate

Quote: &quot;Athjeari&quot;:3a3lkrom
I haven't actually been able to finish reading Dune Messiah, the story doesn't go anywhere at times. I might still finish it at some point, but Dune Messiah is not high on my immediate reading list.

Dune is certainly worth reading, I personally kind of like the movie too (it's a bit odd and crazy but that's David Lynch for you), the way Herbert introduces the Fremen was fantastic and full of intrigue and mystery. I also like how he incorporates Spice in so many cool ways. All in all, Dune is certainly a classic that is worth reading.

Personally, I think Bakker is a much better read, but hey it's like...my opinion, man.[/quote:3a3lkrom]

Word, brother. Reading Dune Messiah, I literally fell asleep twice. Granted I was kind of tired at the time, but still... <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: --> It seems to be a long set up for the third book Children of Dune. I'm starting on that one so hopefully something interesting happens. I haven't actually seen the Dune movie, but I like David Lynch, so I'll try to find it.

The Fremen are certainly interesting, but here again, the difference between Herbert and Bakker shows. Other than Stilgar, there are almost no notable personalities among the Fremen (and Stilgar is not exactly all that deep), whereas Bakker gives us many fascinating characters to complement the one superhuman. The &quot;ecological&quot; angle is very unique, and all the talk of &quot;spilling the water&quot; really reminds me of the Cishaurim. Indeed, it seems possible that Bakker adapted his Kian/Fane people from the Fremen idea. Remember how Fane was a blind priest who was left to die in the desert but came out a living prophet? Well at the end of Dune Messiah, Paul Atreides became blind and walked alone into the desert to die. I wouldn't be surprised at all if he comes back alive and kicking <!-- s:mrgreen: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_mrgreen.gif" alt=":mrgreen:" title="Mr. Green" /><!-- s:mrgreen: --> view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 13 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Athjeari, Peralogue

I should have told you that I've watched the made for TV series Children of Dune which, judging from the timeline of events, should probably have been broken in two parts entitle Dune Messiah and Children of Dune. Your post reminded me of that fact because of what you said regarding Paul Atreides. I really dig your comparison of the Cishaurim to this, I honestly didn't even think about that connection. Awesome! I have a feeling it had to influence Bakker a little. I also can't believe I didn't see the relationship between &quot;Spice&quot; and &quot;chanv&quot;. You could almost substitute the two terms!

The chanv extends life...
The chanv expands consciousness...

I think given the fact we have so little information given of the Fremen is precisely why I like them so much. I was able to construct a concept of how I wanted to see them. Herbert gives us the pieces, and we get to put them together. If you're familiar with persuasion theory, and Aristotle's concept of an enthymeme, I'd like to compare it to that. We're given premises about the Fremen throughout most of the book, but we're left to make a lot of conclusions on our own.

Bakker also does something similar to this with the Nonmen. Particularly in PON, where we only see 2 direct interactions with Nonmen (1st in the prologue of TDtCB, and the 2nd in Akka's first chapter of TTT). Man, I've fallen in love with the Nonmen. I think they're one of the most intriguing aspects about Bakker's world, and I think a main reason is I know so little about them. view post


Kellhus vs Dune posted 21 September 2011 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]Kellhus vs Dune by Callan S., Auditor

Pssst, non men are just cooler ents!

Just joking, though seriously, both have lost their entwives and live for centuries or longer.

Scott has also said he doesn't have a creative bone in his body, and so borrows from favorites.

Really? He said this?

This gives quite some perspective on how he managed to write these books of his...a strange perspective, but all the same... view post


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