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Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Thorsten, Candidate

Interesting question... Since I have a great interest in linguistics, let me drop a few comments:

I've been trying to figure out what this name means by looking at other Nonmen names for things at the back of TTT. The only places where the names are somewhat similar are under Ishterebinth (Exalted Stronghold) where it says it was also called Ishoriol (Exalted Hall). My guess is that -iol means hall (or perhaps riol does) because the translation exalted is shared by them as well as Ishual( meaning Exalted Grotto) but they only match on the -ish prefix.


Yes, they all seem to match with ish- '*exalted'. But when you drop this phoneme, what is left is #terebinth '*stronghold', #ual '*grotto' and #oriol '*hall' - why should this shorten to ?riol/iol, except that you need it to fit? <!-- s8) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_cool.gif" alt="8)" title="Cool" /><!-- s8) -->

The other parts are -In and -car


We don't know that - we have no clue where the boundaries are, you cold have Inca-riol where #inca is related with incu from the ark for example, you could have In-cari-ol and so on - one would need to get a bit more into the structure of the language.


which are found under Incu-Holoinas( Ark-of-the-skies) and Inchoroi (People of emptiness) guessing that -in means of.


Almost certainly in does not mean 'of' - you assume that there needs to be a translation of 'of' because the structure is like in English, but it could be an inflecting language, e.g. *inca '*sky' #incu '*of [the] sky', or it could be literally a loose compound 'sky-ark'. Nonmen expressions never stuck me as using prepositions - they tend to be short in every language because they appear so often, whereas languages which employ typically long words and names tend to be case languages.

The only thing that had -car in it was Cara-Sincurimoi (Angel of Endless Hunger) what the Nonmen called the No-God. Just going by the way it looks, I'm guessing Cara means Angel and Sincurimoi means endless hunger. Although there is an -in there which may be the of part.


Unlikely - consider that incu seems to be the sky part, because a) it seems to share a root with incho- from the Inchoroi and 'emptiness, sky, space' are not unrelated, so if the first element of one compound translates the second of the English one, why should the word order in this compound be different and b) -moi actually is seen to act as a personal ending, cf. Cu'jara Cinmoi, so Sincurimoi is more likely to be a person/ a sort of agent, i.e. rather the 'angel' than the 'hunger'.

As I said, it's a neat problem, and one would have to look a bit more into the language structure to figure something out. I'll have a look <!-- s:D --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_biggrin.gif" alt=":D" title="Very Happy" /><!-- s:D --> view post


Video Interview with Scott, in Croatia posted 03 August 2009 in Interviews and ReviewsVideo Interview with Scott, in Croatia by Cnaiür, Peralogue

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2009/07/r-scott-bakker-video-interview.html">http://fantasyhotlist.blogspot.com/2009 ... rview.html</a><!-- m --> view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 03 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Thanks for the replies. I thought my translation was a little too easy and as I've just begun looking into linguistics for fun (still trying to find a good book to start with) I figured I'd just throw it out there to see what others might say.

I looked for the other page (because I remember there being one) but couldn't find it. Mainly because I haven't had the internet regularly and have had to rely on school and libraries for access rather than my own so I didn't come here often enough to sign up until recently.

I await your comments Thorsten and others. view post


About the Dunyain... posted 04 August 2009 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by Nerdanel, Peralogue

I think even the highest ranks of the Dûnyain are truly ignorant of sorcery. Otherwise Kellhus would have been able to sense the Mark on them and would have later made the connection. Of course it's possible he did and it just wasn't told to the reader, but I doubt it.

This erasing of information raises questions on just who was behind the thought processes that lead to the deliberate forgetting about the Outside and why. Honest search for the truth does not explain it. My theory is that the Dûnyain were a covert Consult organization so secret that even most of the Consult didn't know about it, even though its acts of assassination and sabotage had a massive effect on the war. I think Mekeritrig was likely the one responsible, but with his memory problems he doesn't remember it. He keeps notes though, and his meeting with Kellhus was no accident but part of his complex plan to bring about the triumph of the No-God and also to kill the last surviving Inchoroi. (The No-God is fine with the last part because of how incompetent the Consult has been. Kellhus didn't lie to Aurang about that.) Mekeritrig carefully constructed the Dûnyain society to resist change and guided the Dûnyain though magic wardings to Ishual, knowing that after a few thousand years his tools would have become refined and powerful indeed through the power of selective breeding while still remaining his tools.

Mekeritrig made the darkness that came before the Dûnyain in order to predict their reactions and thus control them, and by extension, control the world.

I like theories. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post


About the Dunyain... posted 05 August 2009 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by Curethan, Didact

Quote: &quot;Nerdanel&quot;:2oridayu
I think even the highest ranks of the Dûnyain are truly ignorant of sorcery. Otherwise Kellhus would have been able to sense the Mark on them and would have later made the connection. Of course it's possible he did and it just wasn't told to the reader, but I doubt it.
[/quote:2oridayu]

That's assuming they (a) are practitioners and (b) visible at all to the lower echelons.

As for your theory... awesome! I like theories too <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) --> view post


Neuropath discussion at HowStuffWorks.com posted 06 August 2009 in NeuropathNeuropath discussion at HowStuffWorks.com by Vomikron Noxis, Candidate

Hey guys,

After ruminating on &quot;Neuropath&quot; for about a year, I finally wrote a blog for HowStuffWorks.com about the semantic apocalypse. It's not an in-depth discussion or anything, but it's spawning some interesting comments from readers. One neuroscientist has chimed in, as have a few people on the relationship between Bakker's apocalypse and what Buddhists call enlightenment. If anyone here wants to contribute, here's the link:

[url:2e20j5v4]http&#58;//blogs&#46;howstuffworks&#46;com/2009/07/29/welcome-to-the-semantic-apocalypse/[/url:2e20j5v4]

I've actually tried to contact Bakker through Overlook to try and see if we can wrangle an interview with him about various sciencey issues, but I haven't heard anything back yet. I imagine he's knee-deep in crafting the rest of the Great Ordeal right now, so I suppose he's fine where he is. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Anyway, please forgive the shill, but this is where all the Bakker fans are and I know a number of you guys are heavy into philosophy.

~rl view post


About the Dunyain... posted 07 August 2009 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by sneroplex, Commoner

I think I recall reading somewhere that members of Dunyain society don't even come into contact with most of the pragmas, thus making it perfectly possible they would never see the mark on them.

But then that begs the question that if Khellus has the mark, are there other Dunyain the same level as he who also have the mark? Do they even know what the mark is? Maybe they all have it, as Jerako suggested they might be breeding for it.

Oh well, it's time to re-read The Thousandfold Thought! view post


About the Dunyain... posted 07 August 2009 in The Thousandfold ThoughtAbout the Dunyain... by anor277, Didact

I think we've dealt with this question before, and it has been specifically addressed in the earliest novel. Granted there were individual Dunyain with the potential to be sorcerors, however, those individuals were all turned off (i.e. the ones whom Moenghus managed to contact by sorcerous dreams were manifestly &quot;sorcerors&quot;); the Pragma or someone insisted that they all commit suicide - I don't recall the details - as they were a threat to Ishual's isolation. The only exception was Kellhus, and he was despatched as an assassin of Moenghus, who had originally threatened the isolation of Ishual. view post


The Judging Eye cover art / edition posted 09 August 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye cover art / edition by Uriel, Commoner

Hello all,

Long time forum reader, first time posting. Finally got an account up and running, so my apologies if this is a repeated question.

I'm a bit of a nit picky collector and being a college student, I like to buy things only once. It's not like I have anything more than this month's rent in the checking account with some change in my pocket. Anyway, I'm really wanting to continue the saga of Kellhus with The Judging Eye, but I've been waiting in order to purchase a hardback copy with the blue / teal color and the decending characters motif from the first set of hardbacks. (Pics below) I really like how flashy the first three look with my other books, they really stand out. I fear it'll be like the Dark Tower series though. I loved the cover art of the first 4, but then once he picked the series back up the look of them changed. I don't really know what that gets to me, I've been told it's a quality of most Taurus'.

Does anyone know if this cover art ever made it into production? I cant seem to find it anywhere. Pre-release I found a few sites (amazon.com etc) in which the pre-order thumbnail was of that cover, yet anytime I find this on a store shelf it's the other cover with the prince's picture surrounded by a ring. And on top of that, I usually find the paperback editions. I'm thinking that the 2nd and 3rd sets of books might not continue that motif, which is a shame because I really like them. They're so unique looking, plus I'm a hand-sweater so reading the paperbacks results in might curled books, I can't stand that.

Desired cover art:
[img:22i887nz]http&#58;//4&#46;bp&#46;blogspot&#46;com/_bMgwKBBp0JE/SRSvPZ1YNAI/AAAAAAAAA8Y/KSNl-r9JLc0/s400/The+judging+eye&#46;jpg[/img:22i887nz]

Cover I find:
[img:22i887nz]http&#58;//3&#46;bp&#46;blogspot&#46;com/_bMgwKBBp0JE/SR2kT68UGfI/AAAAAAAAA9Q/D_DHGAcxdko/s320/The+Judging+Eye+Orbit&#46;jpg[/img:22i887nz]

Sorry for the length, and many thanks for any help or information on the subject.

Uriel view post


Does Khellus dream as the mandate dream? posted 09 August 2009 in The Judging EyeDoes Khellus dream as the mandate dream? by Uriel, Commoner

Well unless I'm mistaken (only read first 3 books once) I remember reading of this dream from the perspective of Kellhus, and I think he also spoke with him in one dream. My initial answer is yeah, he does. But then again I seem to be the only one saying that... view post


Would you... posted 09 August 2009 in The Judging EyeWould you... by Sil-Inchor, Commoner

Mandate, all the way. view post


Would you... posted 10 August 2009 in The Judging EyeWould you... by Jerako, Candidate

Heck yeah! Sorcery would be more fun than you can shake a stick at! Not sure which school, but maybe the pre-Consult Mangaecca or something. World domination is totally my style. <!-- s:twisted: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_twisted.gif" alt=":twisted:" title="Twisted Evil" /><!-- s:twisted: --> view post


Gnostism posted 10 August 2009 in General DiscusssionGnostism by Jerako, Candidate

You're absolutely right. I think Scott is definately a student of Gnosticism, or at least Platonic philosophies. Many, many of his philosophies that appear in his books have strong parallels to Gnosticism. Especially if this super-consciousness idea of &quot;the God&quot; and sorcery turn out to be the way he goes.

The idea that we are all God, and share many abilities/traits, is the fundamental belief of Gnosticism, indeed, the very &quot;secret knowledge&quot; from which the sect derived their name. view post


Would you... posted 11 August 2009 in The Judging EyeWould you... by Curethan, Didact

No. I would use it. I don't need to practice on account of I'm a wizard IRL! view post


The Judging Eye cover art / edition posted 11 August 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye cover art / edition by Curethan, Didact

Got the later edition here - TP (in australia)
Never seen the one ur after view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 13 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Thorsten, Candidate

There is not as much material on Ihrimsû as one would have liked, but at least a few conclusions can be drawn, and a few speculations can be formulated.

1) It seems that the structure of Ihrimsû is such that the qualifier consistently precedes the qualified. For this, the following evidence is available:

a) In Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556), Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556), Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556) and Ishroi 'exalted ones' (TT:555) the element ish- must mean 'exalted' and always comes in front. From the last word, one can also infer #roi '[a] people'.

b) This appears also in Halaroi 'men' (TT:521), Inchoroi 'people of emptiness' (TT:522) and Cûnuroi 'nonmen' (TT:523). Inchoroi must thus literally be '[of]-emptiness-people'. This is in fact confirmed, because we get the etymology of the other two words in an older form of the language as ji cûnu roi 'the People of Dawn' (TT:581) and j'ala roi 'the People of Summer' (ibid). Here, j(i) is probably the article 'the', but just possibly an inflection marker, but cûnu must be '[of] dawn' and ala '[of] summer', so literally we have 'the [of]-dawn-people' and 'the [of]-summer-people.

c) In Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521), Holoinas must mean 'ark' because in TT:524 it is mentioned that Nonmen kept a watch on the Holoinas - it is unlikely that they kept looking at the sky all the time. So, literally this must mean 'of-the-skies-ark'.

d) auja-gilcûnni is more or less translates as 'ground tongue' in DB:588 - and from the context, the latter must mean 'tongue' - so again the qualifier auja 'base-, ground-' comes in front.

2) It would seem that Ihrimsû is a case language, although the inflection pattern is impossible to guess. This conclusion is mainly based on the name Sin'niroiha 'First among Peoples' (TT:522) in which the element roi identified as 'people' is found. The name may therefore be decomposed as #sin '*first' and #niroiha 'among peoples' . This is a plural form inflected for a partitive case, so either ni- is plural and -ha the partitive, or vice versa. From the comparison of 'Cûno-Inchoroi wars' with Cûnuroi as standalone form, I would tend to suspect that the ending -ha is the plural and ni- has the meaning 'among', but that's essentialy conjecture.

3) The change from j'ala roi to Halaroi clearly indicates that sound shifts occur in the language development - the same element may therefore appear in slightly different guise in different words.

Now to some more speculative ideas:

4) In comparing Isûphiryas 'great pit of years' (DB:584) , Min-Uroikas 'Pit of Obscenities' (TT:528) one can try to identify the element 'pit'. This must come last (see 1) above) - so it can only be (y)as (I think it's unlikely that Isûphiry is compatible with Ihrimsû phonology, therefore I tend to break the word as Isûphir 'great-of-years' and yas 'pit'. Min-Uroikas would then be derived from a former *Min-Uroikyas with a shift in phonology. #Min-Uroik(?) with possibly an omitted ending then must mean '[of] obscenities' - presumably it is a compound word '?obscene things' or so. The question remains, if there is a genitive qualifier and an adjective, which one would come first? I tend to think that the adjective would come first, because there is a tantalizing parallel between ish- 'exalted' and #is- '*great' and incû '[of] skies' and incho- '[of] emptiness' - it could be that an aspiration of an element changes its emphasis and shade of meaning slightly. Accoring to that idea, I'd break Isûphiryas as is- 'great' ûphir 'of years' yas 'pit'. This actually goes nicely with #Aujas from the name Cil-Aujas - this is evidently related to auja 'ground', so I'd suspect the development *Aujayas &gt; Aujas 'ground-pit'.

If all that is not too far off the track, I'd put my money in for Incariol as being composed from Inca-oriol 'hall of the sky'.

Anyway - I found the following Nonman words, phrases and names which offer useful information:

auja-gilcûnni 'ground-tongue' (DB:588)
Anyasiri 'tongueless howlers' (TT:494)
Aghurzoi 'Cut Tongue' (TT:486)
Cincûl'hisa 'gasp of many reeds' (DB:589)
Isûphriyas 'great pit of years' (DB:584)
Cara-Sincurimoi 'Angel of Endless Hunger' (TT:509)
elju 'book' (TT:534)
Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521)
Halroi 'Men' (TT:521)
Inchoroi 'People of Emptiness' (TT:522)
Ishroi 'Exalted Ones' (TT:555)
Sin'niroiha 'First among Peoples' (TT:522)
Cûnuroi 'Nonmen' (TT:523)
Siörgil 'Shining Death' (TT:524)
Inniür-Shigogli 'Black Furnace Plain' (TT:526)
Ciögli '?Mountain' (TT:527)
Min-Uroikas 'Pit of Obscenities' (TT:528)
Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556)
Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556)
Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556)
Nasamorgas 'Death of Birth' (TT:582)

There are significantly more names, but for the most part they remain untranslated.

Finally there are the two phrases spoken in the first encounter of Kellhus with a Nonman:

Kaz'inirishka dazu daka gurankas (DB:26)
ka'cûnuroi souk ki'elju, souk hus'jihla (DB:28)

If anyone comes across other translated bits, please let me know! view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 15 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Fascinating reading Thorsten. I think you are on the right track. So if Incariol is from ' hall of the sky ', are there any references to where Mekeritrig (who seems likely to be Incariol, IMHO) is from? Do you the the ' hall of the sky ' is in any way a reference to the ' ark of the sky ' ?

On a similar note, does anyone else think Kellhus may have translated Auja-Gilcunni (the lost ground tongue of the nonmen)? I'm not sure if it would be worthwhile but there seemed to be hints in the books that it hadn't been translated...yet. Would it give any advantage? I'm not too sure about the metaphysics of sorcery and language. I doubt Kellhus would have had much trouble translating it since he knew of at least three Nonman mansions where he might find sources and given his ease with languages.

One last thing, during Kellhus' encounter with the Nonman at the beginning of Darkness, the Nonman says &quot; I see that you are a student, knowledge is power eh?&quot; when Kellhus merely looks at him without fear or expression. At first this didn't mean much to me but as I was perusing the glossary I found this:
&quot; Following its founding in 684 by Sos-Pranimura ( the greatest student of Gin' yursis) the school of Mangaecca pursued a predatory ethos, regarding knowledge as the embodiment of power.&quot;
Did the Nonman think Kellhus was somehow connected to the Mangaecca? Do the Dunyain have roots connected to the Mangaecca? Perhaps they are an offshoot of some early (pre-Consult) Mangaecca thinkers? Any other ideas what this little exchange meant? view post


Is Kellus insane or not posted 24 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIs Kellus insane or not by Mochi, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Landrew&quot;:393v9bvk
If concurrently he believes that he is both divine and divinely appointed to save the world, when he is not (making an assumption here), then he is probably insane at least to a degree[/quote:393v9bvk]

That's my take on it, also. It has been a while since I read TTT, but I recall getting the impression that Kellus came to belive in his own divinity, which previously he had seen as false. That belief is what I think of as his madness. We can gather from Mimara seeing sorcery as damned that Kellhus is a false prophet on some level, so his deviation from knowing truth, which I would think he ought to pride as part of the Logos, is a sort of madness.

Quote: &quot;Cripdamind&quot;:393v9bvk
the 'what has come before' section of each book seems to be the thing we can use to gauge the 'authenticity' of each narrations beliefs. [/quote:393v9bvk]

While it does present itself that way, I take it to be of a part with the other errata, such as the map, glossary, and Achamian's chart from the first book: glimpses of Eärwa that give insight, but don't neccessarily represent &quot;truth&quot;. For example, the glossary in TJE defines Moënghus as the son of Kellhus and Serwë, when we know that he is truly the son of Cnaiür and Serwë; the glossary cannot be trusted as fact, so I won't presume to take the &quot;What has come before&quot; section as fact, rather as a reminder of what seems to have happened. view post


Your First Time posted 24 August 2009 in Off-Topic DiscussionYour First Time by Mochi, Commoner

Benjamin the True.

I was 3 years old. My babysitter had an old copy of this now out-of-print book. I made her read it to me every time she tucked me in for bed. Many years later, I obtained a copy for myself. It's still my favorite.

It has everything a kid could need in a fantasy novel--a mysterious witch, an anti-social and frightening old man who lives in a house full of dust and creepy old things, mysterious disappearances, and transport via flying birch pole, all experienced by a young boy named Benjamin. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 25 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by nonman_erratic, Commoner

Quote: &quot;Thorsten&quot;:923wiurl


a) In Ishüal 'Exalted Grotto' (TT:556), Ishterebinth 'Exalted Stronghold' (TT:556), Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556) and Ishroi 'exalted ones' (TT:555) the element ish- must mean 'exalted' and always comes in front. From the last word, one can also infer #roi '[a] people'.

b) This appears also in Halaroi 'men' (TT:521), Inchoroi 'people of emptiness' (TT:522) and Cûnuroi 'nonmen' (TT:523). Inchoroi must thus literally be '[of]-emptiness-people'. This is in fact confirmed, because we get the etymology of the other two words in an older form of the language as ji cûnu roi 'the People of Dawn' (TT:581) and j'ala roi 'the People of Summer' (ibid). Here, j(i) is probably the article 'the', but just possibly an inflection marker, but cûnu must be '[of] dawn' and ala '[of] summer', so literally we have 'the [of]-dawn-people' and 'the [of]-summer-people.

c) In Incû-Holoinas 'Ark of the Skies' (TT:521), Holoinas must mean 'ark' because in TT:524 it is mentioned that Nonmen kept a watch on the Holoinas - it is unlikely that they kept looking at the sky all the time. So, literally this must mean 'of-the-skies-ark'.

3) The change from j'ala roi to Halaroi clearly indicates that sound shifts occur in the language development - the same element may therefore appear in slightly different guise in different words.

If all that is not too far off the track, I'd put my money in for Incariol as being composed from Inca-oriol 'hall of the sky'.

Anyway - I found the following Nonman words, phrases and names which offer useful information:


Siörgil 'Shining Death' (TT:524)
Ishoriöl 'Exalted Hall' (TT:556)

There are significantly more names, but for the most part they remain untranslated.

If anyone comes across other translated bits, please let me know![/quote:923wiurl]

Great post.

I am going to speculate that Siöl = Shining Hall. (Siö- or Siör- = Shining, while -iöl = hall). Not wanting to sound silly with Siöliöl/Siörliöl, the nonmen dropped the double-double. Like Boutros Boutros Ghali should've done.

I posted previously on the etymology behind Incariol... I had a similar sort of take on it... I follow your logic though am not sure on the &quot;Inc- / Incu-&quot; component. How do you reconcile Inchoroi with Incu-Holoinas? Or do you think the addition of the -h vs the -u to 'Inc' changes the meaning drastically? We both agree that -roi = people and -iöl = &quot;Hall/Stronghold&quot;... And that the Inchoroi were named 'people of emptiness'... From there I postulated that Incariol equated to something along the lines of &quot;Empty Hall/Stronghold&quot;... Which I stretched to &quot;Soul-less One&quot;...

If one stretches your translation a little, you could perhaps go from &quot;Hall of the Sky,&quot; (of-the-skies-stronghold) to something along the lines of, &quot;Stronghold of the Heavens/ Heavenly Stronghold&quot;...

So we could have Incariol as either a Heavenly Body, or a Soulless Erratic... Not so far off of where I think his character could go... Either a dark saviour, or an erratic waiting for a trauma. view post


Is Kellus insane or not posted 26 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIs Kellus insane or not by Curethan, Didact

Quote: &quot;Mochi&quot;:ziw6cn2e
Quote: &quot;Landrew&quot;:ziw6cn2e
If concurrently he believes that he is both divine and divinely appointed to save the world, when he is not (making an assumption here), then he is probably insane at least to a degree[/quote:ziw6cn2e]

That's my take on it, also. It has been a while since I read TTT, but I recall getting the impression that Kellus came to belive in his own divinity, which previously he had seen as false. That belief is what I think of as his madness. We can gather from Mimara seeing sorcery as damned that Kellhus is a false prophet on some level, so his deviation from knowing truth, which I would think he ought to pride as part of the Logos, is a sort of madness.
[/quote:ziw6cn2e]

Yeh, he could see his hand halos. Which only believers see.

Quote: &quot;mochi&quot;:ziw6cn2e

Quote: &quot;Cripdamind&quot;:ziw6cn2e
the 'what has come before' section of each book seems to be the thing we can use to gauge the 'authenticity' of each narrations beliefs. [/quote:ziw6cn2e]

While it does present itself that way, I take it to be of a part with the other errata, such as the map, glossary, and Achamian's chart from the first book: glimpses of Eärwa that give insight, but don't neccessarily represent &quot;truth&quot;. For example, the glossary in TJE defines Moënghus as the son of Kellhus and Serwë, when we know that he is truly the son of Cnaiür and Serwë; the glossary cannot be trusted as fact, so I won't presume to take the &quot;What has come before&quot; section as fact, rather as a reminder of what seems to have happened.[/quote:ziw6cn2e]
Well, Moenghus is certainly more Kellhus' son than Cnaiur's in a world where reality is anchored via perception. The truth is only a lie made real in Earwa. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
Alternatively, perhaps we can take the unspoken &quot;adopted&quot; as understood - the true sitution is heavily implied during TJE and, for some reason, the &quot;what has come before&quot; bit is appended to the main narrative - so new readers may enjoy guessing at his heritage if they read this series first.
If one can't trust even the prequel sysnopsis from the author we are not likely to ever make confident predictions, espescially if the author is being deliberatly ambiguous. Hmmmmmmmm.... I agree with you! view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 27 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by ThePrinceofNothing, Candidate

Why wouldn't Akka pick up on the etymology of Cleric's name? You'd think that it would at least give him cause for consideration.

EDIT: Didn't see Curethan's post, second from the top, which I'm in agreement with. I find it hard to believe that, if Incariol is indeed Mekeritrig (or something other member of the Inchoroi), Achamian would allow such a fact to go unnoticed. The etymology and Seswatha's memories should provide him with enough information to deduct who Incariol is. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 27 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Rhadamanth, Commoner

Does Achamian speak Ihrimsu? I thought he spoke a different version for sorcery. Perhaps he doesn't know the etymology of Ihrimsu or Bakker just doesn't want him to tell us yet. Sometimes his hints are fairly obvious though, I mean come on Mallahet = Moenghus? Who didn't see that coming? All the hints were there.

I don't know if Incariol is Mekeritrig (or whether Mekeritrig is the one whom Kellhus meets) but it seems like a nice little circle. Plus, the conversation between Incariol and the Ghost under the Mountain seemed to hint that Incariol knew his people were damned and that he didn't forget like the rest of them. I wonder if either one Mekeritrig, Incariol, and the unknown one Kellhus meets were part of the group that slaughtered the humans near the ruins of Myclai at the end of TWP? view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 28 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Curethan, Didact

Mekertrig is definitely the nonman Kellhus meets; Scott let that one slip here.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:2eqitpk3

I can recap and clarify the info that's been given so far: the Nonmen are an ancient race, the 'original people' of Earwa, who are nearly immortal, and who fought both for and against the No-God during the Apocalypse. They are slowly going insane: their minds can only hold roughly four or five human lifetimes of experiences, and as the centuries pass the traumatic experiences they suffer crowd out their other memories, until now, almost all Nonmen remember only the pain and loss in their lives. And some, like the Nonman (Mekertrig) that Kellhus meets in the Prologue, have taken to creating traumatic experiences just so they can have something to remember...[/quote:2eqitpk3]

I am of the opinion that nonmen look alike in a similar way that all chinese &quot;look alike&quot; but moreso. Meaning that men would focus on their physical divergences that are consistent between individuals rather than on the differences between said individuals, thus making them all appear alike. A man who had learned from and befriended many different non-men (i.e. Seswatha) would be expected to be able to reliably differentiate between them.

If nonmen were effectively clones of each other I feel that Scott would have rendered their society and culture much differently.

There was another little nugget of nonman info in the thread with the above quote in that I just had to repost it here even though it is off-topic.

Quote: &quot;Cu'jara Cinmoi&quot;:2eqitpk3

Many Nonmen wander Earwa and the Three Seas, searching for trauma - which is to say, memories. A few hundred serve Golgotterath. The majority of these are what are called 'Erratics' - Nonmen who've been driven mad by the accumulation of trauma.

The majority of surviving Nonmen, however, dwell in Ishterebinth - stonghold of the ancient Nonmen nation of Injor Niyas - where they struggle to keep the dwindling flame of their ancient civilization alive. Here the Quya and the Siqu masters continue their studies, developing techniques, sorcerous and otherwise, to keep their race sane.
[/quote:2eqitpk3]

I jusrt love the nonmen - so cool. view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 30 August 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;ThePrinceofNothing&quot;:3ulr43ra
Why wouldn't Akka pick up on the etymology of Cleric's name? You'd think that it would at least give him cause for consideration.

EDIT: Didn't see Curethan's post, second from the top, which I'm in agreement with. I find it hard to believe that, if Incariol is indeed Mekeritrig (or something other member of the Inchoroi), Achamian would allow such a fact to go unnoticed. The etymology and Seswatha's memories should provide him with enough information to deduct who Incariol is.[/quote:3ulr43ra]

I think that's the point. Achamian's internal monologue insists that he should know Incariol's identity. Incariol is a relic, and his martial and sorcerous prowess bespeak a famous &quot;Name&quot;. I guess A. will find out soon enough. view post


Any up coming Novels with entirety Of THe Apocalypse? posted 30 August 2009 in Author Q &amp; AAny up coming Novels with entirety Of THe Apocalypse? by Supersword, Commoner

I believe that the Ark travelled much the same way as one would assume a ship would. Not necessarily a space ship, but certainly it &quot;travelled the wastes&quot; so to speak. Bakker describes its descent in much the same way as imagery is detailed in Revelations (I find quite a bit of similarity between the Prince of Nothing and Christianity, among other things). The Ark, &quot;vast and golden, toppled from the void, scorching the horizon, throwing up a ring of mountains with the violence of its descent.&quot; (Bakker 427) Much of what the Inchoroi and the Consult do seems steeped in Chaos, so toppling makes sense. &quot;Scorching the horizon&quot; does not speak of &quot;controlled landing&quot;, and the &quot;ring of mountains&quot; is quite obviously the crater it made upon impact. Considering the meshing of sorcerery and science in this world of his, Bakker will likely explain rather satisfactorily about how the Ark came to be. Seems likely to be in the last book of the Ordeal via Consult or via Seswatha's dreams.

Also, to satisfy my own desire to discuss similarities, I do not see the Heron Spear as a 'gun'. In a world of magic, a gun would seem hardly necessary (though the mental image of Sarl with an MG42 and Lord Kosoter with a .45 Revolver fighting Sranc is rather amusing). No, my brain perked at the similarities between the Heron Spear and the Spear of Destiny, for lack of a better name. Something like the Holy Grail or the Spear that killed Christ. Also, this may just be idle mental wanderings, but the similarities between Kellhus and Jesus are somewhat uncanny. The white robes, the beard and the sloping halo are what did it for me. Stereotypical imagery, I know, but uncanny nonetheless.

A last point on the impending backstory. Bakker has been rather good at giving enough information so we don't remain confused (after the first few chapters of &quot;The Darkness That Comes Before&quot;, of course) but not enough so we say &quot;Well, that's that, next series!&quot; I'm confident that he'll provide enough closure on the backstory of the First Apocalypse. Besides, these books are not written with the intention of simple, linear plot. I've gotten more thought out of these books than most others I've read. It's certainly less annoying than some of Plato's writings on Socrates!

Bakker, R. Scott. &quot;The Aspect-Emperor Book One: The Judging Eye.&quot; Toronto, Canada: Pengiun Canada, 2009. view post


Why are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? posted 30 August 2009 in Author Q &amp; AWhy are Kellhus and Moenghus of the Few? by Supersword, Commoner

I'm sure it's pretty obvious by now, but Nau-Cayuti isn't Celmomas II's son. He's Seswatha's. That makes Kellhus Seswatha's ancestor with Celmomas' name. Hurrah for well placed infidelity! view post


The Judging Eye cover art / edition posted 01 September 2009 in The Judging EyeThe Judging Eye cover art / edition by borock1111, Commoner

i beleive the copy you are looking for is the advanced readers copy edition not sold in stores..I have not seen one in hardback..I have all copies except russian view post


Incariol, what does it mean? posted 02 September 2009 in The Judging EyeIncariol, what does it mean? by Supersword, Commoner

Just a couple of potential refining points. But before that, I'm impressed that this is what has been come up with thus far. Very impressive.

First off, in figuring out the syllables between Nonman words, so far as I can tell is that the only difference between Nonman speech patterns and Human speech patterns would be caused by the fused teeth of the former. Otherwise, they still speak via sound vibrations, which leads me to believe that their syllables would constitute much the same length and shape as Humans'. Therefore, it is my belief that the original thought on in-ca-riol or inc-a-riol present more accurate samples.

Secondly, as per Achamian, it is quite possible that Seswatha came into contact with Incariol, but it wasn't part of his memories that the Mandate see every night. Instead, I believe that Achamian is just getting through the surface of the 'secondary' dreams of Seswatha's memories. I believe it is possible that Achamian will find evidence of Incariol somewhere in these 'new' dreams. After all, Achamian is now the chief historian of the First Apocalypse, for all intents and purposes. view post


The eye in the Pick's heart *spoilers* posted 02 September 2009 in The Judging EyeThe eye in the Pick's heart *spoilers* by Supersword, Commoner

I will agree with the distinctions between Reality and the OUtside, Objectivity and Subjectivity being blurred. Achamian saw that the Pick was in love with the previous owner of the hand he still held, and by deduction decided that the heart is where the man's deviance would manifest. He didn't necessarily know it would be an eye, but it's logical to assume that when the distinctions between symbol and reality are dimmed, the distinction between the organ and the ideal would be dimmed as well. So, &quot;see into my heart&quot; or &quot;you are in my heart forever&quot; turns into something somewhat more...dire. view post


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