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*Spoilers* Favourite new character. posted 12 May 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Favourite new character. by coobek, Candidate

Quote: "nonman_erratic":2lhlgfh8
So, best I can come up with, at a stretch... Incariol roughly = 'Empty Place'... or perhaps 'Home of emptiness,' 'stronghold of emptiness', 'empty hall,' 'empty vessel'?... Soul-less one? Or, perhaps, 'Prince of Nothing'??


Now thats a thought!!! And just above I have pitted them against each other! Now who is better Prince of Nothing!
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Small things in TJE that you liked posted 12 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSmall things in TJE that you liked by coobek, Candidate

Quote: &quot;nonman_erratic&quot;:2oewbr19

The fact that Cleric is Canadian.... &quot;Where does all the judgement go, Eh, Wizard?&quot;


And for the non-anglosaxon civilizations <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> how do you explain him being Canadian by saying Eh?

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Consensus so far? posted 12 May 2009 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by coobek, Candidate

I think the book is as good as any other in previous trilogy and Scott kept the level which is amazing. This is in no compariosn to any Feast of Crows or whatever. These are THE books. Nothing better since Tolkien and Black Company from anglosaxon writers.

Any way I of course concur that it is the Slog that made the book but also the twisted Kelmomas, although I hate him, made it worthy.

In future I would like to finally see some Consult or more specific Inchoroi action! Not nescessary more Dunyan.

I want to see Gods walk the earth, demons following blind wizards who overdose drugs, Lord Kosoter and Incariol they identity revieled, Apropos sorcery, Achamian pilgrimage to Sauglish, Maithanet vs Kelmomas and Esmenet between, Wracu and hordes of Sranc and Kelhus in a duel with Cleric!

And most of all I want to see Cnauir ap Skiotha, where is he? Dead or not? view post

Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 12 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by coobek, Candidate

I'll go with his killed brother. It is his voice. view post

Disciple of the Dog posted 12 May 2009 in General DiscusssionDisciple of the Dog by Vomikron Noxis, Candidate

Just found this bit, which I hadn't run across elsewhere -- do we know anything else about this one?

&quot;Shin has also acquired the rights to The Disciple of the Dog by R Scott Bakker. Bakker previously wrote the Prince of Nothing trilogy and this thriller will is due out in May 2010. The title is about a private investigator who doesn't forget anything, ever.&quot;
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~rl view post

Twice Read Tales posted 13 May 2009 in The Judging EyeTwice Read Tales by coobek, Candidate

I strongly and fully agree. And to think that I have bought the first book for its cover <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> view post

An interesting thought... posted 13 May 2009 in The Judging EyeAn interesting thought... by coobek, Candidate

I think it highly unlikely. Psatma would need to be his agent? How come? view post

Spoiler: Kelmonas' Voice posted 18 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSpoiler: Kelmonas' Voice by Callan S., Auditor

Quote: &quot;ThePrinceofNothing&quot;:2x6200no
I believe that Kelmomas' &quot;voice&quot; is actually Samarmas' intellect. At some point, either at birth or during their forced &quot;separation (it was described how they could not look away from each other or be apart from each other),&quot; the combined superior Dunyain intellect did not split properly between each body. Bakker continually describes how Samarmas is much more &quot;simple&quot; and naive than Kelmomas. I believe that Kelmomas has the combined Dunyain intellect.[/quote:2x6200no]
I'm not too keen to jump into spiritual speculation, since how it works is kind of up to the author and this is a bit of a leap. But that sounds like a good idea on what could be happening, regardless! view post

Consensus so far? posted 18 May 2009 in The Judging EyeConsensus so far? by Callan S., Auditor

I'm pretty sure Sorweel is there to represent us and what it'd be like to be dumped into it all. If you start thinking of him as being from our age, he becomes alot more fleshed out. view post

I don't understand how the word 'will' is being used posted 18 May 2009 in NeuropathI don't understand how the word 'will' is being used by Callan S., Auditor

Quote: &quot;Thorsten&quot;:1nlkryyk
He starts with the assumption that what he does works in establishing truth, then applies vastly different standards in judging evidence which confirms what he thinks is true as compared to evidence that contradicts what he thinks is true, and as a result he gets out what he puts in.[/quote:1nlkryyk]
What did he say as being true?

I can't really remember him saying anything to be true - sure, lots of hinting as to stuff like hell houses being bad for children, or maybe stuff like saying the solid part of an atom is like a fly in a football field. Perhaps darwininsm? But your probably not refering to that stuff?

What things did he say are true? view post

I don't understand how the word 'will' is being used posted 18 May 2009 in NeuropathI don't understand how the word 'will' is being used by Thorsten, Candidate

I have written a lengthy essay on the issue where I pretty much quote what Dawkins states where before discussing it. It is linked in the thread. Please just read it instead of asking me to type it here again. It is quite irrelevant what you remember Dawkins saying when we can just read it up in his book. view post

*Spoilers* Favourite new character. posted 24 May 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Favourite new character. by Firestorm896, Commoner

As much as I liked Cleric/Incariol (a most interesting replacement for Cnaiur - both mad, both find dark holy, and both seem to view Men as so much less...), and I wonder if he was the Nonman that Kellhus first encountered in the woods (probably not - he did not have a robe of human faces...), I was much more intrigued by Lord Kosoter, or &quot;Ironsoul&quot;. It would be most interesting to hear more about his history and thoughts. I like his contrast to most the other characters in the book. Instead of ruling through word, he rules through action. No one else we see rules this way . . . the closest would be Kellhus with his example making. Indeed, it is the voice and words themselves that give so many power. Where Acamian sings the God's song, and Kellhus speaks the God's voice, it seems that Lord Kosoter acts the God's act. And I really enjoyed the scene where he claimed that they were not in Hell, because he had been there. Wonder what's up there? view post

The eye in the Pick's heart *spoilers* posted 24 May 2009 in The Judging EyeThe eye in the Pick's heart *spoilers* by Firestorm896, Commoner

Some parallelism going on here with Kellhus pulling out his own flaming heart? So no Eye could be in his now . . . view post

Sarl posted 24 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSarl by Firestorm896, Commoner

It was the . . . Magi Nonmen who fought the Inchori, right? Banned their &quot;magic&quot;? And aren't skin spies .. . a magic of the Inchori? So one would think that Cleric would be able to determine if Sarl was a skin spy .. . view post

Something odd about Gin'yursis posted 24 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSomething odd about Gin'yursis by Firestorm896, Commoner

Reflex. Trained and honed until CONSCIOUS memory is not needed. Just like Kullhus's reactions with catching arrows. One doesn't actively remember how to do that. They just do. Like a beating heart. But I like your question. Made me think. view post

Would you... posted 24 May 2009 in The Judging EyeWould you... by Firestorm896, Commoner

Yes - but learn it from the true masters, the Nonmen (no pun intended). view post

Sarl posted 25 May 2009 in The Judging EyeSarl by anor277, Didact

Quote: &quot;Firestorm896&quot;:145hl1r2
It was the . . . Magi Nonmen who fought the Inchori, right? Banned their &quot;magic&quot;? And aren't skin spies .. . a magic of the Inchori? So one would think that Cleric would be able to determine if Sarl was a skin spy .. .[/quote:145hl1r2]
As far as we know, all of the Non-Men fought the Inchoroi (save the renegade practitioners of &quot;Aporetic&quot; sorcery - who might have taught a few Inchoroi how to conjure). The skin spies are specifically non-magical artefacts, produced by Inchoroi technology; a Non-Man thus has no special ability to detect them. Somewhere in TTT Aurang mentioned that they had placed agents (i.e. skinspies) in Ishterebinth, the last inhabited Non-Man mansion.

ETA: On topic, I don't see any reason to suppose that Sarl is a skin-spy. view post

Losing the Argument is actually a Win? posted 29 May 2009 in NeuropathLosing the Argument is actually a Win? by sciborg3, Commoner

So I was reading Bakker's lecture on the terrifying implications of advanced neuroscience in the hands of those who would use it to preserve power or extend it via tyrannical means.

However, imagine another group of people who in fact wish to create a paradise on earth. After all, even if we are just biological robots (especially because we are) the only thing that matters is the alleviation of suffering, extending to the perceived suffering of denying choice, frustation/guilt at being an addict, remembering being molested, etc. I see things going (centuries from now) like this (if all goes well):

1. Advances in neuroscience likely precede advances in cloning. But assume we become sufficiently advanced at both.

2. We create a better (smarter, quicker, stronger BUT less &quot;evil&quot;) race that have &quot;better&quot; brains either through cloning or the surgical improvement of willing individuals' minds. Some people might want more willpower, some might want to erase memories, etc.

3. This hopefully leads to a world in which, eventually, the only people who exist are those who choose to get the surgery, were cloned as part of this new improved humanity, and anyone who chooses not to do this - I predict this latter group goes extinct because of natural selection.

4. Eventually all that's left are the new humans. They can continually try being in love with each other, being gay/straight and attempting different tasks/emotions. There will likely continue to be those who choose to only have the emotions the world gives them, but I believe this meme will be selected out as well.

5. This is essentially a group of people that can edit out negative emotions so long as the agent personally chooses to do so. This preserves the morality of personal autonomy as well as allows people to remove unwanted psychological baggage.

In the end, we simply will have gifted the world to a better, more noble race than that which blind chance created. They will exist, essentially, in a Paradise of their (and thus our) making where they are free to pursue interests of their choosing and capable of reforming their minds/bodies as they desire.

Will there still be pain, loss, etc? Almost definitely, but much of suffering will be chosen because the sufferer finds it meaningful, which in essence preserves whatever autonomy there could exist in a universe where the mind is a machine because we keep the moral notion that we can't, or i can't get rid of : that people need to be able to choose the things that happen to them...even if they aren't choosing anything in reality. Why? Because there would be suffering if somehow they realized what had been done to them AND I know I would suffer if I forced someone to change against their knowledge/&quot;will&quot;.

I don't think scenario is a likely one, far more likely we end up turned into drones for the Evil Empire, but there is cause for hope that neuroscience can forestall suffering in a meaningful way - as one poster said, what if Neil had gone around making Buddhas instead of promoting suffering.

ps. forgive my atrocious use of punctuation/spellinh. view post

Countering the Argument posted 30 May 2009 in NeuropathCountering the Argument by sciborg3, Commoner

Excellent. I also wonder how unpleasant a truth the Argument would be - it would seem to me how much regret you bore on your shoulders would decide that. Some people I know would love to believe they didn't have to take responsibility for things they have done in certain situations. Others feel like their achievements don't mean as much if they're work was an illusion or predetermined.

Others feel the deterministic structure is consistent with God's plan, and thus see the brain's cause and effect as the means in which His/Her/Its/Their will(s) manifest(s). Also as you (and Eistein) state, there is no deterministic movement across time, there is no past/present/future.

Really I'm not even convinced it makes things less meaningful as under the Argument words, love, art are just fabrications of a causal chain unfolding since the Big Bang. But that means meaning is something we as a species has created, a bottom up meaning rather than a top down meaning from the Forms or God or what have you. We may be characters in a story we can't change, but we can appreciate the story we've been written into.

It would be a Sisyphean existence, to be sure, but it would still have meaning. In fact, given that the meaning comes from us rather than some apprehension of external MEANING, it might be *more* meaningful. Depends on how you look at it, and of course trying to decide which form of meaning is *more* is like asking what is worse - slavery or the Holocaust, rape or murder, etc... view post

A P&amp;P RPG for would you do it? posted 30 May 2009 in General DiscusssionA P&amp;P RPG for would you do it? by Kellais, Commoner

I am an enthusiastic roleplayer and i think the world of Earwa would be an interesting place to set a game in (obivously, as it was an rpg setting for Scott's own sessions in the beginning).

So how would you do it? More precisely: what rules would you use (systems you think would fit)? Would you allow players to be sorcerers, nonman? In which time-period of Earwa would you set your game in?

Feel free to talk about everything that comes to your mind in regards to a PoN RPG.

Atm i think i would give the rules from Greg Stolze's Reign (ORE) a try for this. The players i would restrict to humans, no nonmen. A sorcerer is very powerful, so i'm not sure if it would be a good idea to allow players to take on that role. If at all, i think the player would have to be a mandate-schoolman...that generates interesting plot-hooks (Seswatha and the dreams). As for the time-period...i think setting it right before the events of PoN would be interesting. Or in the time-span between PoN and AE. A game during the first apocalypse would also be intriguing but we do not have a lot of information on it, so the GM would have to fill a lot of holes by himself. view post

*Spoilers* Favourite new character. posted 05 June 2009 in The Judging Eye*Spoilers* Favourite new character. by Ilyich, Commoner

Nah, like others have already pointed out, he didn't have the cloak of faces, and Mekeretrig used a broad sword, whereas Incariol used a great sword; thats not to suggest Nonmen are incapable of being open to variety, but it just doesn't seem like an inconsistency I would read in this series. Theres also differences in the way they act. This is just speculation however, but I would define Incariol as being the opposite of Mekeretrig. Incariol can't think humans are AS bad as Sranc if he's still hanging around with them. Mekeretrig on the other hand tries to alleviate the madness/remember by submerging himself in the violent/sadistic/disturbing activities of the Sranc.

Incariol is definitely my new favourite character. I find myself wondering, could he defeat Kellhus? I know, Kellhus has pwnz0r cants he devised himself, plus he is physically/mentally superior to men in all respects, but I remember reading one part where Incariol used cants of the Quya (if thats what its called) to augment his martial combat. Kellhus might have a few things which Mandate Schoolmen can't discover/fathom themselves, but it would seem that Incariol knows powerful cants known only to Nonmen magi.

Incariol also seems to have a deeply ingrained sense of morals, which from what I've read is rare to find in an erratic. I only get that feeling because of how he went to the utmost lengths to protect the lives of his companions in Cil-aujas. Unlike some other erratics who invest themselves in wholesale destruction and sadistic violence/slaughter, he represents all the noble aspects which have faded from most of the remnants of his race (maybe he, &quot;remembers&quot; by protecting instead of destroying?) This really sets him apart from Kellhus, who in the same situation I don't doubt would have used the Skin Eaters to ensure his own escape (especially since he is now vulnerable to chorae). If Kellhus had been in Cleric's shoes, and got the feeling he was in danger and the battle wasn't going their way (which it definitely wasn't) he would have teleported away immediately.

Where Kellhus just turns people into tools, Incariol seems to be the hero people thought and hoped Kellhus was initially going to be; thats saying a lot for a Nonman erratic.

Also, he referred to the Nonman king as cousin; might that have made him an Ishroi prince of Cil-Aujas at one point? He seems to fit the title of, &quot;prince of nothing,&quot; but in a different way than Kellhus does.

Anyway, the book was great, and Incariol is amazing as well as a mystery.

Note: I really wonder who that stranger was who went to see Kosoter at the beginning of the book? view post

No-God theory, or another theory posted 05 June 2009 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by Ilyich, Commoner

I agree with the first poster. The no-god seems to be a thing of confusion. I think Cnaiur may be alive, but his use in the creation of the no-god will probably involve some use of the Tekne on him.

Then again, if he is still alive, perhaps the consult have him rallying the Scyvlendi to fight for Golgotterath?

I have my own theory though, that perhaps Incariol will be the No-God? Since he is my new favourite character, I am really hoping that this isn't the case.


While he was possessed by the Nonman king, the spirit said a few things regarding a god.

&quot;I dream that I am a God.&quot;
&quot;But a hunger... a hunger runs through me... splits me like rotted stone.&quot;
&quot;How... could a God hunger?&quot;

However, last we saw of Incariol in the book, he was emerging from Cil-Aujas and he wasn't floating around like something from an exorcism movie anymore. So this, imo, doesn't point at him becoming the No-God (or him being a synthesis with another to create the No-God), but it seems like more of a hint. view post

PoN/AE inspired art? posted 07 June 2009 in Off-Topic DiscussionPoN/AE inspired art? by Ilyich, Commoner

Does anyone have any artwork inspired by the Prince of Nothing trilogy or the new book The Judging Eye which they would like to share? Post it here!

Right now I'm doing some sketches of Incariol (which suck), and later I'm going to use these to make a model with Maya. So I've spent a few hours trying to think of what Nonman armour would look like... since descriptions in The Darkness that Comes Before and The Judging Eye haven't been specific (Mekeretrig=heavy armor, Incariol=&quot;he stands planked in silvery armour, plates skirted in impossibly fine chain, his greatsword swinging from his left hip&quot;) I'm guessing its more likely that Incariol is wearing more traditional Nonman armour). At the moment I'm looking at a bunch of pictures of plate armor, and I'm thinking of ways to alter them which will make look better and more like something a Nonmen Ishroi would wear (and to fit in more with the image which appears in my head when I read the description of Incariol's armor). view post

History posted 07 June 2009 in Writing TipsHistory by Ilyich, Commoner

I take the time to develop the world in my head. I usually end up writing down all of the details, and then theres all of the more micro details. The latter are more difficult for me to think of, since initially when I think of a fictional world, I categorize everything (so this is here, and its called this), but in reality its colourless and doesn't really possess, &quot;flavour&quot;.

So filling in history, customs, etc, really helps breathe life into that world. Over time I've learned its best to really thoroughly go over the world and put a lot of thought into each of its parts, rather than just assigning generic models to each (these will be the vicious people, these will be the nice people, these will be the guys who like horses and resemble norse, these will be the courageous people who resemble medieval Britian, etc). I find this was the failing of many of my earlier stories, since to myself they didn't even seem to possess any meaning or life.

Using history is definitely good for gaining inspiration, but really make it yours and not just a rehash.

Then of course that world will probably undergo many revisions as you develop the story, but thats expected view post

Your First Time posted 08 June 2009 in Off-Topic DiscussionYour First Time by Ilyich, Commoner

The Soulforge (The Raistlin Chronicles) view post

The metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) posted 10 June 2009 in The Judging EyeThe metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) by Thorsten, Candidate

Abbreviations used

RSB: R. Scott Bakker
DB: The Darkness that Comes Before
WP: The Warrior Prophet
TT: The Thousandfold Thought
JE: The Judging Eye


Here I continue my thoughts about the metaphysics of Eärwa as outlined in [url=http&#58;//www&#46;forum&#46;three-seas&#46;com/viewtopic&#46;php?f=17&amp;t=39359:ebuypqm4]The metaphysics of Eärwa - some thoughts[/url:ebuypqm4] with the new information we have gained in JE.

All in all, JE resembles much more 'conventional fantasy' than the first trilogy ever did. The main interesting tension in DB, WP and TT was between the contrasting worldviews of Logos and Mythos, causality (the past state of the world determining the future) vs. teleology (the world developing towards some purpose), the question which of them is 'true' and all its philosophical implications. This is almost completely absent in JE - the story is never seen with the eyes of Kellhus, and consequently the causal point of view is missing. Reading JE without knowing the previous trilogy, one would in essence conclude that the 'true' view of the world is given in terms of really existing gods and prophets and that there is hell and damnation is an objective, unquestionable fact.

Needless to say, for that reason I did not enjoy JE nearly as much as the previous books. In JE, it is hinted that Kellhus is indeed a fraud, a man clever enough to pose as a prophet, but ignorant of the true state of affairs. Indeed, in the summary of the previous books, it is explicitly stated that Kellhus did 'go mad'. And if the end should be that RSB discards the causal worldview, in essence telling the reader 'it's only Kellhus who told you - you know you can't trust him' then everything special about Eärwa will be gone (and it would be close to cheating - there has been good evidence that Kellhus is indeed a prophet).

But let us not jump to premature conclusions, go slowly through the material and try to reconcile it with what was found in the first trilogy.

The gods and the God

We have not seem much in terms of direct divine intervention in DB, WP or TT, in spite of a highly religious context (you'd think the gods take an interest in holy wars...), so we had to deduce their existence from indirect clues. This has drastically changed in JE: We see Yatwer directly taking the Oracle Vethenestra in Ch. 5, and Yatwer's power is implied to be behind the aging of the White-Luck warrior and the becoming younger of Psatma Nannaferi described in Ch. 9 and similarly her blessing is implied to give Sorweel the power to deceive the Aspect-Emperor in Ch. 15. Barring the possibility that Kellhus actually knows that Sorweel is lying, but (for whatever purpose we don't yet see) allows him to think he is deceiving him, the latter is no insignificant observation: It shows that the gods are in a sense able to defeat the power of the Logos (and therefore in a sense beat causality?).

What, then, is the relation between the gods (as exemplified by Yatwer in JE) and the God as it appeared in the previous trilogy? My impression is that the explanation given by Maithanet to Esmenet in Ch.5 is essentially correct. Previously I argued that the God corresponds to an emergent super-consciousness, resulting from the interaction between human consciousness, belief, perception and reality. But the human mind is a multi-layered thing, not a homogeneous structure. In the [url=http&#58;//webspace&#46;ship&#46;edu/cgboer/jung&#46;html:ebuypqm4]Jungian model[/url:ebuypqm4] of the psyche, complexes appear as functional units of the mind just the same way as organs appear as functional units of the body, and these appear on the deeper level of the collective unconscious as archetypes. A mind layered this way would not only give rise to a super-consciousness, the God, but also to 'super-complexes' - the gods.

Yatwer in particular would seem to correspond to a deeply unconscious and intuitive mind structure - consider all references to earth and darkness. No wonder she opposes Kellhus, who personifies the 'light' of reason! And since everyone has probably made the experience that the mind is not always decided, but that there is for example a tension between 'head' and 'heart', it should not come as a surprise that in spite of being part of a whole, the gods neither act in harmony, nor act necessarily for the good of the whole. Assuming of course Kellhus represents the whole, i.e. the God.

The Judging Eye

The strongest evidence that Kellhus does in fact not represent the God is given by what Mimara's Judging Eye sees in Achamian. Supposedly the Judging Eye should show an objective moral judgement (we have at present no way of really knowing if that is the case, but I'm willing to accept the idea for the moment). Since Kellhus claimed he can rewrite the holy texts and in doing so save the sorcerers from damnation, but Mimara continues do see the damnation of sorcerers, it would follow that Kellhus' claim is wrong. And if Kellhus' claims to spiritual matters are wrong, he cannot be a prophet or represent the God. This would make him appear as someone who poses as a prophet to make use of the belief of others for his own ends - just what he started out to do back in DB.

The truly interesting question is - what does Mimara see when she looks at Kellhus with the Judging Eye? If he is a prophet who just happens to be using the Gnosis, then he may not be damned, but if he is a sorcerer who would like to appear as a prophet, then the Judging Eye would show him as damned just like other sorcerers. Unfortunately, we don't know (although it's a bit of a stretch that Mimara who spent time close to Kellhus wouldn't know and Achamian wouldn't ask her).

In the terminology developed before, what actually is the Judging Eye? It would be something like the ability to see the world while tapping the super-consciousness that is the God, i.e. to see more than one's own judgement, but rather a collective judgement.

Topoi and the nature of Hell

In order to understand better what is later revealed about the Chorae, let us now turn the attention to the nature of the Topoi. Among of the most dense scenes of the book is certainly the passage through the haunted halls of Cil-Aujas, and it is made clear that traversing Cil-Aujas is literally a journey through hell. Cil-Aujas is mentioned to be a Topos just like the Field of Mengedda.

What is the nature of a Topos (or Hell) in Eärwa? It seems to be a place where nightmares literally come true, where fear of some terror is very justified as this terror is about to be realized. An example is the eye found by Achamian in the heart of the abandoned warrior, which is precisely his fear come true (Ch. 14). Again we find here the theme of the close relationship between reality and observation which influence each other.

It is striking that Topoi apparently arise in places where a large number of human beings suffers. We may thus understand the nature of a Topos as follows: While normal reality is shaped by normal consciousness, and in turn influences consciousness and from that processes the God emerges as a super-consciousness, a Topos is shaped by a nightmare, suffering and fear. Normally terror or suffering are individual (and can't affect reality much), or become bearable through the thought that they are not the normal state of affairs, that they will pass and normal consciousness will be experienced again after. Topoi would represent places in which this hope is abandoned and terror is accepted as the normal experience. Then a vicious cycle starts: The more terrifying the situation is, the more terrifying it is perceived, but as perception shapes reality, the Topos actually becomes even more terrifying, the fear is perfectly justified - and so a place turns into Hell.

This means that Topoi arise from minds which do no longer show the central organizing principle, the 'self' in Jungian terms, which would give rise to the God otherwise. As a result, Topoi lack cohesion - they are, as the Outside, more susceptible to desire (or fear) and of diminished objectivity. In this sense, they are places where the Outside leaks into the world.

The Chorae

Previously I argued that Chorea 'force true reality to be in its 'proper place', i.e. to equal perceived reality [i.e. the God]' and that they can therefore be used to 'anchor' something in reality (in fact, I argued that this is their function for the No-God). This idea is confirmed rather nicely in JE.

At the beginning of the key scene in Ch. 16 Mimara observes how reality seems to move whereas the Chorae remains steady: 'a sense that it is not theTrinket that moves so much as it is the whole of creation about it'. Later she uses the Judging Eye to see 'through' the Chorae, and she finds a light, a 'point of luminous white certainty' which she sees as a Tear of God. That is precisely what one would expect to happen in my theory of Chorae. The Judging Eye shows the objective moral judgement of something. The God is emergent from reality perceiving itself in the minds of people. The Chorae forces true reality to be perceived reality, i.e. it shapes the reality of the God out of chaos - of course that act is identical to the nature of the God, and that is what the Judging Eye perceives. This, in fact, is my main argument why the explanation of what the Judging Eye is is correct - it agrees with everything we can deduce about Chorae.

Achamian is astonished at what Mimara does with the Chorae - he is of the opinion that Hell should have swallowed them whole, Chorae or not. But I don't think that could happen - a Topos, the Outside, should be no more able to swallow a Chorae as a sorcerer should be able to use it. Thus, my conclusion is that Achamian is in error here. After all - how could he know?

The Prophet of the Past

There is an interesting analogy I would like draw attention to, although I don't know what it means yet. Achamian is called a 'prophet of the past' in JE. Interestingly enough, the things that play out closely resemble what happens to Kellus in WP. Kellhus' prophecy to Saubon 'March... The Whore will be kind to you... You must make certain the Shrial knights are punished' (WP, Ch. 4) was at this point almost certainly not anything that Kellhus believed himself. Nevertheless, it came to pass later.

The same is true for Achamian's mission. Initially he lies about his intention to get to Sauglish and find the coffers - he just picks Sauglish as a destination which may lure men to accompany him. However, later he learnes that Sauglish is exactly where he has to go - the events evolve in such a way as to make his lie truth in the end. So, in the same sense in which Kellhus was a true prophet, Achamian must be as well. It is certainly intriguing to observe the change in his dreams, but I don't think we have enough clues yet in order to understand what precisely his role is.

Spiritual warfare

What then is overall going on in JE? Is Kellhus a prophet or not - does he represent the God or not? I think it is still possible to arrange all bits of information into a coherent picture - but it also may be that RSB tinkered with the metaphysics between trilogies or deceived us.

The idea which can reconcile everything is a kind of spiritual warfare, a contest who gets to establish the truth of matters. It appears that initially Kellhus as the Warrior Prophet had more support among the people than at the beginning of JE - Psatma Nannaferi in Ch.5 for example mentiones that initially the followers of Yatwer rejoiced, but they do not so any more: 'It was a joyous time, a time of celebration (...) At that time, we celebrated the Shriah and his Holy War, thinking only of what we might regain. We did not see the Demon that slumbered in its belly, that would possess it, transform it into an instrument of oppression and blasphemous tyranny. We did not see the Aspect-Emperor.' That in turn means that Kellhus power to determine what is true and what is not is contested on several fronts - and as a result, he is no longer truly prophet.

In other words, Kellhus is faced with a number of problems which exceed his capacity to deal with adequately. His surviving offspring is a rather sociopathic crowd not likely to inspire any notion of blessing by the God, his continuous wars are demanding for the economy, and while he can attend to problems in person adequately, his empire is just too large to do so.

At the moment, it is my impression that this is behind the damnation of sorcerers Mimara continues to see - Kellhus has ceased to be the only measure of truth. view post

The metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) posted 10 June 2009 in The Judging EyeThe metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) by Harrol, Moderator

Thorsten that was well stated. I think that Kellhus not only wars to defeat the Consult but also to control the outside. The normal Duinyain without The Thousandfold Thought would be left with only the option of closing off the outside but with the TTT he can shape and control the outside to a degree. I think that Yatwer senses that and is acting against Kellhus so that he can not gain that power. I may be off here but from what I can gather this appears be roughly the second war that Kellhus fights. view post

An interesting thought... posted 12 June 2009 in The Judging EyeAn interesting thought... by Athjeari, Peralogue

In an abstract way Kellhus is behind all that has going on within the Yatwer.

None of what is going on within the sect of Yatwer would be occuring without the presence of Kellhus.

Now, does this mean that Kellhus is using the Yatwer sect as a tool? I doubt it, but it is too difficult to determine this without any POV's from Kellhus. We have literally no idea what he has planned.
I'd like to think that he has more going on than marching his massive army North. view post

No-God theory, or another theory posted 12 June 2009 in The Great Ordeal [supposed]No-God theory, or another theory by Athjeari, Peralogue

I feel that Cnaiur died at the end of TTT.

Even if he didn't die the Cnaiur we knew and loved would be no more. He would be around sixty five years old in the JE. I'm pretty sure that Cnaiur would be feeling the affects of aging.

It appears that the No-God is totally constructed, but constructed out of what? view post

The metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) posted 12 June 2009 in The Judging EyeThe metaphysics of Eärwa (contd.) by Triskele, Candidate

Great stuff. I like your theory on the Chorae.

I am still so torn on the nature of Kellhus. I think there is ample evidence to support Kellhus as prophet and ample evidence to support Kellhus as false prophet. I also think there's a chance that he's something sort of in between in that perhaps he doesn't actually rewrite any scripture or judgement but that he does have savior aspects. I can't wait to see where it goes. view post


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