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The Logos/Dunyain posted 19 May 2005 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Logos/Dunyain by White Lord, Subdidact

Some comments. Don't have a lot of time for detailed speculation, so I'll just point out where I think you're wrong:

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
1. The population of Dunyain, it would seem to me, is limited by several factors. Primarily their expressed desire to remain undiscovered. Let us assume that the population numbers as little as 1,000 functional adults[/quote:3voq4tpc]

I think your figure is too small. My reckoning puts the Dunyain at a minimum of four thousand people. Ishual is a citadel, i.e. built in the first place to host a large body of fighting men and to provide the sustenance they would need year round.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
(I’ll come back to the functional part in a short while). Considering the technology available to them (mid to late iron age) and their lack of horses (Kellus walked out) we would need to assume that the majority of the population (75%-90%) are farmers. Were these farms as small as 20 acres each (7.5 acres is considered subsistence farming using modern techniques) this would lead us to assume that the Dunyain community was cultivating 15,000-18,000 acres ( approx. 23-31 square miles.) Which I think we can agree is a sizable area. In that they have not been discovered sitting on the Consult’s doorstep I think it safe to assume they haven’t grown much beyond these limits.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

That's impossible. Ishual is situated in the middle of a substantial chain of mountains, there's no space fit for farming outside Ishual's walls to speak of, and it's plain that they have all the food they need grown inside Ishual. About how their technology stands, I think you are underestimating what the Dunyain know or use. If you think they started the community in the Bronze Age, and have been isolated ever since, how do you think they came up with steel that is stronger than any steel in the Three Seas? I think that, given time and thought, they'd be able to solve any problems they encounter without exiting the walls of Ishual. Anyway, if they farmed such a large tract of land there is no way they'd have escaped the Consult, no way.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
2. The Dunyain started with a very limited gene pool (my guess is that there were probably less than 100 refugees). Were there more than this to begin with they would have been thinned out during the first few years from starvation and 11 years of stillborn. Even with their breeding program we can assume a large number of culls (non-functionals), probably the source for Kellus’ “face” training.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

The face-training specimens come from outside. The Dunyain maintain some contact with the nearest human tribes, and sometimes people simply wander too close to Ishual and are captured. This is also a source of trade for the advanced goods the Dunyain can manufacture in exchange for food, when it's needed.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
A. Sorcery is supernatural in origin. By supernatural I do not mean more than nature but instead outside of nature.
B. The outside source of sorcery is The God(s).[/quote:3voq4tpc]

With this I agree.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
The Logos is a brand of sorcery. Wait…wait…wait, put down the rocks… hear me out. I have a couple of reasons to think this. First off is that every form of sorcery in the books is loaded with a capital letter to make it stand out (Gnosis, Psuke, Tekne… Logos). But beyond this admittedly thin argument, I have several thoughts.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

The Tekne is not sorcery, it's bioscience. The Logos is also not sorcery as one understands it IMO.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
First off is that the Dunyain have been able maintain a bloodline over two thousand years in such purity that it is recognizable (Akka recognized Kellus as an Anisurimbor). Second, the probability trance smacks of the super natural/sorcerous (even Herbert’s Mentats required greater time than this and they had been bred for tens of thousands of years). Even reaching the point of the probability trance is less than 2000 years implies sorcerous interference.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

It implies a divine, not a sorcerous intervention, and I hope you see the difference.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
Third the existence of sorcery indicates that the Few eventually have to use it and the Schools merely teach outlets.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

You do not have to learn sorcery, or use it if you do not want it. It doesn't work that way. The College of Luthymae of the Thousand Temples is full of sorcerers who have never uttered a single cant.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
With the inward focus of the Logos it would seem that the Logos is the sorcery of self manipulation. This would explain why the Chorae did not effect Kellus… not Cants to stop.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

This is explained well enough in the books. Chorae affect the Few only when they utter a sorcerous cant and gain the Mark. You can be one of the Few and be immune to Chorae if you have never actually worked sorcery. There are also certain cants one can utter and be immune to them, which is what Kellhus did in TWP.

Quote: "Oumo Di Spada":3voq4tpc
It would also explain how Kellus defeated Cnaiur with so little effort (beat him as a man would a child) despite Cnaiur being arguably the best (unaltered) warrior presented in the books as yet.[/quote:3voq4tpc]

He beat Cnaiur because of his breeding. It's as simple as that. I'd guess any Dunyain's musculature is much more powerful, i.e. efficient than any world-born's, and also his reflexes are much more rapid and controlled. Also about the probability trance, and other techniques the Dunyain use to aid reason, but also to fight better, I see no sorcerous origin.

I guess you may be right on an interference from the Outside, I too think of such an interference, but choose to call it divine rather than sorcerous, because you would then have to postulate an existing sorcerous metaphysics explaining the Logos or the Probability Trance. I view it simply as the result of a highly successful breeding and training process. As to divine intervention, I hold Achamian's view that everything has a purpose, so the purpose of the Dunyain, regardless of what they think or do, was to enhance physically and mentally the line of Anasurimbor, and bring it intact to the present time, when it has to fulfill its purpose.

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