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Music..not generally... posted 24 June 2008 in Off-Topic DiscussionMusic..not generally... by carlsefni, Peralogue

Quote: "Orion_metalhead":s32zqp8w
Well, I use the term "greatness" loosely. I think that a more apt attempt at ranking would be credibility as artists but that too poses infinite amounts of "cracked-cup-filling." I don't think that it really is necessary to attempt and give music or art a particular score, I was more or less just running with the topic. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, me too -- it's what topics are for. Really, I would see the exercise of trying to judge music objectively as requiring a necessary reduction to fairly rigidly define sets of criteria, making the whole thing a fairly academic exercise of limited applicability to ... anything most anyone would be interested in. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) -->

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Influence is a possible way to base whether a band is &quot;great&quot; or not I suppose but it poses many problems. I think that people throw the word &quot;influence&quot; around these days as a marketing ploy so as to link a band's generic and entirely watered down sound with a more credible scene or group of artists to gain the favor of real music fans.[/quote:s32zqp8w]

True. I'm really just using &quot;influence&quot; as a kind of short-hand for &quot;the condition of having created music that refuses to go away even after the social conditions that might have initially made it popular even if it had had no other particular value have dissipated&quot; .... or something like that!

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
A band like Nirvana - who I would love to argue and bash all day for being the worst thing to happen to music until American Idol decided to claim the throne to that position - who were incredibly influential would also, in my ears, be listed as less than great. They were influential but that was all they were. They too were part of a scene that spewed forth more enduring and talented bands. The only good musician was Dave Grohl and I would go so far as to say that the Foo Fighters are a &quot;greater&quot; band than Nirvana. I won't even touch upon commercial success. To claim that N'Sync is a greater... musical outfit than say, Darkthrone is ridiculous. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, I'm not going to leap up to defend Nirvana's subjective greatness -- I'll own Cobain an able writer of pop songs (no doubt to his chagrin, and that of many of his fans) but they never did much for me. (Cobain, haplessly miserable beggar that he was, was clearly taking the wrong drugs! <!-- s;) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=";)" title="Wink" /><!-- s;) -->) Nor will I lift so much as the cuticle of a particularly small finger to defend anything about N'Sync! But it does go to show that we need a definition of &quot;greatness&quot; in order to judge whether it exists in a particular case.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Lyrical &quot;superiority&quot; would be easier to judge than musical &quot;superiority / greatness.&quot;
I do however frown upon any attempt to create a set of rules or definitions for judging complexity and the like. Setting a manual of guidelines creates a prison for the creative potential of the artist. It would drive them to create music that fits the definitions given and write lyrics that would fall into the missing places that the rules cut out of the sod.[/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, we wouldn't be setting a manual of guidelines for the artist, only for the judge -- if we want objective measures. But as I noted, that reduces our judgments to the purely academic; only as good as the criteria we define. And this is not particularly useful or interesting. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> We could define &quot;complexity&quot; as &quot;the number of different notes per unit of time&quot;, and define &quot;greatness as complexity&quot;, but then we would know little more than our notionally great music had an awful lot of notes in it. <!-- s:) --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_smile.gif" alt=":)" title="Smile" /><!-- s:) --> We may as well stick with purely subjective mesaures like, &quot;N'Sync suck!&quot;, which are at leat more satisfying if not more informative.

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
I'm not a HUGE fan of classical but I don't care for the big bombastic symphonies so much. I do like Tchaikovsky's pieces however so, I guess its a matter of individual composers in the case of classical for me. I would like to get more involved in the classical genre and delve deeper into that rabbit hole but I just get caught up in the other genres. [/quote:s32zqp8w]

Well, I was raised on classical music (with some folk and jazz thrown in ) as a child, only to be caught up in the heady glories of rock-and/or-roll later on. I retain many early likings of classical music, but there are practical difficulties in getting into the genre. IMO, it's like every record is by a cover band -- and you might like someone's &quot;cover&quot; of a piece more or less. Any given symphony, say, probably has been recorded at least half-a-dozen times (if not many, many more) by different combinations of conductors and orchestras over the past 50 years. You might like some interpretations but not others, and finding the ones you like can be something of a chore. (I'm still looking for a version of Rimsky-Korsakov's Russian Easter Overture that is more like the one I dug as a kid, about which I remember no helpful identifying details, not having been concerned with (or even aware of) such things then. Well ... not looking very hard, day to day, but you know what I mean ....) I increasingly think one needs to get some of those catalogs of classical reviews and then learn which reviewers tastes you trust. (Heh, well, not that different from reading reviews in Kerrang! or any of a number of metal web sites, then! <!-- s:lol: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_lol.gif" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing" /><!-- s:lol: --> )

Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Quote: &quot;carlsefni&quot;:s32zqp8w
Quote: &quot;Orion_metalhead&quot;:s32zqp8w
Music is so personal and individual that the only music that matters is the music that matters to you.[/quote:s32zqp8w]
As I'm sure I once read as a quote from someone knowledgeable about such things (though I forget who!), there is no good or bad music -- only music you like more or less.[/quote:s32zqp8w]
Yeah, thats a great quote. I've heard it as well. It too raises some interesting questions. Is there any such thing as truly BAD music?[/quote:s32zqp8w]

I'd like to say &quot;yes&quot;, but my philosophy prevents me from doing so. <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->
(Still .... N'Sync suck!) view post


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