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The Sagas as Foreshadowing? posted 14 March 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtThe Sagas as Foreshadowing? by Madness, Peralogue

It's been too long since I've had opportunity to sit at my desk in the comfort of my home and post alongside the rest of you Three Seas fanatics. Aside from the two posts above, I've posted almost nothing in about three weeks time. My first instinct then, as I love to write and love debating the issues within Cû'jara Cinmoi's world, is to find all the posts that I've read over the past weeks that incited me and respond. However, my ambition is reined by the fact I've been feeling sick and my doctor's informed me I may have strep throat; therefore, my mind is feeling somewhat mushy and inconsistent.

Regardless, I woke this afternoon, as I've been lazing around with my girlfriend's cat, Ferris, for much of the day, and decided that I wanted to attempt responding to this thread, at the very least. Whether or not these writings will find themselves posted is yet to be seen but I am going to attempt it; I'd found my mind drifting to Holsety's words on The Sagas and the First Apocalypse following waking and moving to my couch.

I guess I've no eloquent way of beginning here so I shall dive right in.

Holsety, I agree with you thousandfold that the glimpse into The Sagas that Cû'jara Cinmoi has allowed us to experience will prove a foreshadowing of what is to come for the characters we've come to know throughout the Prince of Nothing story. I admit and agree that there are comparisons to be drawn between the characters you've mentioned. However, I like neither the way you've presented these comparisons nor your overall argument.

As I said I believe The Sagas will prove a foreshadowing, as you've decided to present proof of. More so, I believe the dreams of Mandati provide closer points for comparison. Basically, as I've written elsewhere, I believe that Achamian will prove to be Seswatha, Kellhus - Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child - Nau-Cayûti.

The main reason that I disagree with your arguments surrounding The Sagas as foreshadowing is that I believe you are missing entirely one side with which to compare. Again, as I've written elsewhere, the story Cû'jara Cinmoi has set out to tell will truly begin only when we've opened those crisp new pages of the first book of The Aspect-Emperor and immersed ourselves into Eärwa anew. While The Prince of Nothing was more indepth and harrowing than any fantasy I've had the pleasure of experiencing we know that Mr. Bakker wrote only to provide us, the readers, with a bottomless and realistic history with which we can enjoy a more full experience of the Second Apocalypse. Only then will we experience and understand the comparisions as Cû'jara Cinmoi intended.

That said the only way I can now provide validity to any claim of comparision specifically my own is to explain myself.

While I agree with anor that Seswatha is not specifically linked to Achamian over any other Mandate Schoolman, I do believe that by complete randomness, by being at the place at the time, so to speak, and by just being Achamian, he will prove to be the Mandati who assumes Seswatha's position throughout the Second Apocalypse.

I cannot stress enough the essence of humanity I feel Mr. Bakker conveys within his novels. All his characters, aside from the obvious nonhuman ones, no matter how extreme their characteristics, are just human in another time and place.

I, unlike what seems to be the majority of posters, don't believe that Seswatha was a decisive manipulator or ultimately despised in his time. I picture a man not too unlike Achamian, an emotional man, raised as a suthenti until his own journey to join a School. He was also intelligent as the stories surrounding his life attest. Likely, regardless of the truth surrounding Nau-Cayûti's parentage, Seswatha loved as fiercely as any human in our own history as his historical story, no matter how biased, would contain some truth concerning Sharal's and his relationship.

Unfortantly, as Achamian is just the man at the time at the place, it was Seswatha whom Nil'giccas delivered his warning to. I, unlike anor, don't believe Seswatha used Nau-Cayûti maliciously; Seswatha fought for the very lives and loves of a world, peoples unborn, so they might experience a life without fear. As we don't have a firsthand account of the events following Seswatha and Nau-Cayûti's escape from Golgotterath, as we do of their journey in, we cannot assume that Seswatha failed to protect his student. The pain, emotional and physical, that Seswatha would have experienced throughout the entirety of the Apocalypse is beyond imagination; he sacrificed more than any, having to know his name may become hated due to his actions.

As for Kellhus and Celmomas II, and Esmenet's unborn child and Nau-Cayûti, there is little real comparision that we can write until having read The Aspect-Emperor books. Even the comparisions I draw are in relation to Achamian and their future selves.

In the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor, Kellhus will be fifty-five years old himself. As well, though I'm one of the few who do believe this, I believe at the end of The Thousandfold Thought Kellhus has become deluged with emotion, something I believe will, sadly, lead to less cool calculating manipulation on his part. After twenty more years of becoming accustomed to emotion, I believe we will experience a very different Kellhus, though someone still exceptional due to his Dûnyain heritage. I'll not, again, reiterate my arguments for Achamian journeying to Ishterebinth in the intervening years between books; I only mention it because somehow Achamian will need to surpass Kellhus's own sorcerous abilities in order to be included in the books. A possible plot comparision in itself is that Achamian returns to Anasûrimbor Kellhus's court bearing warnings of doom from the north. Kellhus may even ask Achamian to teach his "son's", Möenghus and his sibling.

I'm going to end this with the overall comparisions of parentage and relationships. I'd like to add that I'm sorry if this post has lost some articulation or elaboration nearing it's end. My girlfriend arrived at the apartment not to long ago and though she stands my nerdiness to a point she's leaving to her friend's cottage for a week; I guess I really should be paying a little more attention to her right now <!-- s:wink: --><img src="{SMILIES_PATH}/icon_wink.gif" alt=":wink:" title="Wink" /><!-- s:wink: -->. Not that I'll blame my lack of elaboration entirely on her annoying me as my sore throat and the tylenol are mucking my head.

To finish:

Though anor has expressed doubts concerning my argument, I believe that the scene nearing the end of The Thousandfold Thought involving Esmenet and Achamian's reunion is too intentional on Cû'jara Cinmoi's part not to at least instill some doubt concerning Esmenet's child's father. anor's argument is a good one stating that Kellhus and Esmenet started coupling far too early for there to be much doubt, however, the fact that Mr. Bakker wrote the following quote after Achamian and Esmenet's coupling is too implicative in my opinion. Though, again, overall I agree with anor concerning this, I have to believe that Cû'jara Cinmoi wrote it to continue blurring the truth and allow for closer parallels of the First and Second Apocalypses; though I don't share U-Boat's fear that they will mirror eachother. Cû'jara Cinmoi is too devious for that.

He watched her find her feet, saw the crescent of her belly. She was showing ... How could he not have seen that before?
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