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Mekeritrig posted 17 January 2007 in The Thousandfold ThoughtMekeritrig by Madness, Peralogue

Ulyaoth, I find it interesting that aside from your speculation on Moënghus's salting, you've found no better way to spend your time and intelligence than to disprove my theories.

I'll admit that I've done the same but usually to offer alternative speculation of a more intelligent sort. Once again, despite your claims of my ineptitude, I suggest you read my posts more carefully before seeking to correct me, quote by quote.

However, seeing as two of my chief qualms on these forums are being misunderstood and misconceptions of Mr. Bakker's literature, I feel the need to respond in kind. Though I won't quote you.

To start off, I understand quite well from where Kellhus garnered set inference. I also, not being as intelligent as either Mr. Bakker nor the Dûnyain, understand that any inferences of Kellhus's are likely correct.

Kellhus's exact words are as follows:

"You learned how the last survivors of that fell race, Aurang and Aurax, perverted the heart of their Nonman captor, Mekeritrig, and how he corrupted Shauriatis, the Grandmastaster of the Mangaecca, in his turn."


As yourself and I have both agreed he likely, if not more than likely, inferred this through Achamian's stories. Before his final dream in TTT, I believe anything Achamian has referenced either from Seswatha's memories or his scholarly knowledge is likely true. Like Iyokus, we know Achamian to be quite the antiquitarian.

My reasons for scepticism, however, lie once again in TTT Glossary.

In the entries the Apocalypse, Shaeönanra, and Mangaecca Cû'jara Cinmoi gives us reason to doubt the accurateness of the second half of Kellhus's statement; which in turn gave me reason to doubt the first.

I'll not quote the excerpts as you've obviously thoroughly read the books, and you claim TTT Glossary, but I will write the jist of fact which is basis for my doubt and speculation.

Basically, in 777 Year-of-the-Tusk, during the Nonmen Tutelage the Nonman Erratic Cet'ingira reveals to the "Gnostic School of Mangaecca" the glamour surrounding Min-Uroikas.

This holds true in both the Mangaecca and Apocalypse excerpts. Then in the Shaeönanra excerpt it states that he was born c. 1086.

Perhaps, as it could very well be fact, Mekeritrig did corrupt Shaeönanra in his turn, as Kellhus inferred. However, I think it more likely that Shaeönanra just proved to be the prodigy his excerpt makes him out to be and rose through the ranks of the Mangaecca and subsequent Consult to become the ranking member he is.

Before moving onto the tired arguement of Schools, I'll thank you once again for my benefit of your reading. I had finally found the name of Proyas's father, amongst Achamian's TTT ponderings, but didn't get around to remedying my former post before it was deleted.

I keep re-reading your words on the Schools and am not surprised to find ignorant reiterations. You need to read my words more carefully.

I am beginning to understand that we are of two very seperate schools of thought about the PoN. You, on one hand, are the very embodiment of Kellhus's subjects; even knowing what he is, as an objective observer of a third person narrative. It seems to me that you think he can do no wrong as he seems to possess everyone eventually.

On the other hand, I myself never quite shook the observations of the Dûnyain from Cnaiür's narration and am definitely of like mind regarding anything Dûnyain. Therefore, until nearly the end of TTT I never trusted anything Kellhus said or did as anything more than tools until it became apparent that he was becoming deluged by emotion. Mind you I didn't dislike him for his amorality; I applauded him for it. He will be quite less exceptional once he's fully engulfed by the madness of emotion.

In that mindset I approach the subject of the Schools once more. Yes, I agree that, perhaps, the Mandate like the majority will succumb to Kellhus in the end. However, I'll reiterate that your arguments for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, even the Imperial Saik, at the end of the First Holy War are flawed.

There seems to be a concensus between Schools that wizards and witches are to be hunted to extermination. This, to me, seems wise given that aside from the Imperial Saik the Schools remain indifferent towards the religious and secular powers of the Three Seas, and defections of members to such institutions could prove disastrous. This was the only reason I included the Mysunsai in hunt speculations as they likely would honor set concensus.

As for the Mandate and Scarlet Spires, again at the end of the First Holy War, neither believe Kellhus to be a prophet. In fact, though the Mandate must now treat with Kellhus instead of seizing him, they remain convinced that they will be in control of his actions towards the Consult. The Scarlet Spires on the other hand, though severely weakened, have a Grandmaster who just plain doesn't believe in Kellhus and has a major grudge against Achamian. The above, to me, lend reason to why the Quorum and Scarlet Spires Grandmaster might be inclined to ignore Kellhus's forbearance of anything Achamian.

I disagree as well with your assertions on the Imperial Saik and the Circle of Nibel. The Imperial Saik, aside from losing their Grandmaster and a handful of sorcerers to the Scylvendi and Achamian, have been relatively unharmed as a School throughout the events of the PoN. The Circle of Nibel on the other hand have been completely unharmed throughout the events of the First Holy War and given that they are a Major School of the Three Seas, gives plenty of reason to include them in speculation even if limited in range.

I think you've mistaken the aim of my posts here on the Three Seas forum. Other than quell any misconceptions of fact and speculation, my ultimate goal is to see if, either individually - nigh impossible - or collectively with other posters, the state of things in the opening pages of The Aspect-Emperor can be discerned now. You say your familiar with my former post, so you'll realize I'm just reiterating much of what I've said there.

This is another reason why I didn't respond to your arguments for Achamian not being alone against the Consult. In my former post I articulate that bar Consult move in force - which would include Sranc attacking populated Three Seas - Achamian is solely bent towards Consult defeat.

The only other argument I feel the need to respond to, though I will admit I did misread your post, is the one of Witchcraft.

The negation of the Uroborian Circle by Achamian's Wathi Doll was exceptionally improvised on Achamian's part. It in no way implies, as you seem to believe, that Witchcraft possesses negating properties of sorcery as does, once again, the Aporos, which I might add has been dominated by the Mangaecca and Consult since the beginning of the Cûno-Inchoroi Wars.

After perusing your post and this one once again, I guess I've need to rebut your speculations on Achamian before I finish.

I'll agree that, perhaps, incorporating other sorceries into the Gnosis could be of advantage to Achamian in the future. However, I refute that Witchcraft, an Anagogic sorcery, is the one Achamian should be utilizing. I reiterate again that Ishterebinth is one of the only places I can think of to where Achamian should turn for allies. Again your argument on the Mangaecca and Nonmen Erratic Quya who might've been praticing the Gnosis for millenia remains ignorant. Achamian need not spend millenia himself elaborating and learning when Quya and Siqu of Ishterebinth have done so for him.

As well, since you are familiar with my former post, The Aspect-Emperor, then you should realize that I try to compose my speculation of intelligent reasoning and fact. I'll pose a rhetorical question to you; When has Achamian ever, through words, actions, or thoughts, implied that Zeüm would be a place that he would even think to go for refuge?

I'm going to re-read this again before I post, but I'll leave you and any other readers some food for thought, as part of your argument against Ishterebinth has given me pause.

Though I disagree; I believe Achamian could find Ishterebinth if he were inclined either through research or hints from Seswatha's memories. However, if he were not inclined to learn from Siqu, perhaps he will seek refuge in Cil-Aujas? Somewhere closer to the events and yet definitely refuge. view post


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