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Dunyain machinations posted 04 February 2011 in The Judging EyeDunyain machinations by Gothmog, Commoner

@anor277

Perhaps, of course the Dunyain subsequently turned off all of the other individuals within Ishual capable of receiving Moenghus' dreams (i.e. all of them potential sorcerors).

This is misleading. In fact, they terminated all the people that knew Moenghus from before he set out of Ishual, not all sorcerers. Whether only the people who knew him and were sorcerers received the dream is questionable. Gnostic and Imperial sorcerous communication at least (likely all known) seem to function sorcerer-to-sorcerer only. Psukhe, however as we all know, functions fundamentaly different. It's ability to alter the world without decay suggests the possibility of sorcerer-to-normal person communication. This is assuming Kellhus' decription of the Few to Achamian in TTT is correct.


The whole Dunyain seclusion is somewhat conflictional. On one hand, they have indesputable firsthand accounts and evidence of the First Apocalypse happening (or ending) at the time they started living in Ishual and bred Anasurimbor blood to them. I think it fair to say that Celmomas and Seswatha knew nothing of Dunyain being in Ishual. If i recall correctly, the whole fortress, except the bastard Anasurimbor child was slaughtered before the arrival of the enigmatic Dunyain. Whence they came is unexplained, but it would have to be pretty damn isolated for them not to know of First Apocalypse as well as existance of sorcery. Had they known of either, i can't imagine they would live in isolation as they do, even if select few at the top of their hierarchy knew of it.


I am of the opinion that Kellhus was -not- sent to kill Moenghus. That simply became his objective, as he learned more. One of Kellhus' first thoughts after leaving Ishual (when there was nobody around to decieve yet, so I doubt he's lying) was: I shall dwell in my father's house.

Odd thing, if he was truly sent to assassinate him.

Pretty much this.
We've no reason to assume Kellhus' inner dialogue is lying when he's conflicted about whether the Dunyain axioms still hold. He's conflicted because of the immensity of new knowledge he'd gained, which is (supposedly) not available to the Dunyain. This weight of knowledge can't but crush the intention with which he was sent out. I'm not even certain what the intention was, it is conveniently suited to whatever suits him the most at the time, in dunyain fashion. Note that he, by his own words, killed Moenghus because of all the sins he's commited while remaining no more than Dunyain.

Here lies another huge nest of snakes.
We cannot assume the Ishual Dunyain fall under the same judgement. In fact, it would make no sense for them to. Kellhus was their paragon (more or less proved with the tree exercise by Pragma) when he was sent out after Moenghus. Let's assume he's not delusional here first. Until he believed in the inevitable judgement of the Outside, he did all things Dunyain. Was there no sin? nothing warranting his damnation?
Either there wasn't, in which case the Ishual Dunyain are likewise not damned, or he did and was absolved of it due to not knowing it. I find the latter less believable, because of Moenghus. He was likewise sent out, had access to all the Three Seas knowledge. If both knew the same facts about the world (and i think they did - while Moenghus didn't have Achamia, he had additional 30 years advantage), they should come to the same conclusion that Ouside is an active agency and it's damnation a big no-no. Moenghus did not come to this conclusion and was, in Kellhus' eyes damned, regardless of him "not knowing" sin is real. Of course, Kellhus becoming a Prophet even in his own eyes may have something to do with it.

So unless Kellhus' prophetic status absolves him of previous sin, or perhaps all sin (even leading others unto sin) alltogether, Moenghus should be an isolated case of Dunyain damnation.


The case of sorcery is another interesting question.
On one hand we have Kellhus' judgement that it is no longer a warrant of damnation, on the other Mimara's firsthand experience that it does. Considering previous incarnations of the Judging Eye (recorded ones Achamian spouts anyway) i lean towards public opinion of it being damnable is correct.
Yet Kellhus practices it, when he should side with the Consult from the first bruise of the Mark he received, according to Dunyain axioms. More than that, he even actively leads others to practice it. Is this some sort of Machiavellian "end justifies the means" god-issued absolution to Prophet rank people? Perhaps Kellhus actually believes that it is not damnable and is not commiting a sin practicing it. Or maybe he's just insane.
I feel grounds for speculations are wide and broad, with so much being in question or assumed true. view post


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